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No...

Vetril wrote:You'd all be correct, unless... The Lion is disguised as Cypher, and the prisoner in the Rock is the real Cypher! DUN DUN DUUUN!!!

Thats truly perplexing. I know your joking but I believe GW wants us to believe that lol

Once again:
The Lion's location is something that we, as omniscient third parties, have revealed to us.

He is undeniably within The Rock, until GW retcons it otherwise.

Anung Un Rama wrote: Mortarion got somehow killed by a guy with a silver stick.

Same way Angron gets killed every thousand years, so don't act like it's unprecedented.

Also, he's a daemon. He doesn't get killed, he gets sent home.

The only witnesses to El'Jonson's big nap are the Watchers in the Dark. And really, how far can you trust a bunch of dirty aliens?

Jimsolo wrote:The only witnesses to El'Jonson's big nap are the Watchers in the Dark. And really, how far can you trust a bunch of dirty aliens?

They aren't the ones who told us about him being on the rock. No one told us that, we simply observed it as the omniscient reader.

Jimsolo wrote:The only witnesses to El'Jonson's big nap are the Watchers in the Dark. And really, how far can you trust a bunch of dirty aliens?

The watchers did not tell us though, seeing as they do not speak. It is fact as described by GW not propaganda fluff

the way you describe it is comparable to this:
a line in a book: ' the wolf prowelled the dark cave as bats flew overhead'
you 'well only the bats have told me that the wolf is there, so i don't believe it'


Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.

BluntmanDC wrote:
Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.

They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.

DarknessEternal wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:
Also we hae no idea what the watchers in the dark are, they are postulated to be many things. Being aliens is just one and not the most favoured one at that.

They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.

ummm, No.

DoA made it clear they are a Xenos race.

And as I said before, this is fluff from editions past, in the turbulent times of the 987.M2

DarknessEternal wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote: Mortarion got somehow killed by a guy with a silver stick.

Same way Angron gets killed every thousand years, so don't act like it's unprecedented.

Also, he's a daemon. He doesn't get killed, he gets sent home.

Difference between the two:

Angron rolls with a posse of a score of Bloodthirsters and takes out almost an entire company of Grey Knights on his way out.

Montarion gets curb-stomped by a newb on his first mission.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:
They're daemons. Descent of Angels makes that clear. They just aren't chaos daemons.

This is nonsense, what book are you reading? They are definitely not daemons, they are a Xenos race watching over the Chaos taint on Corriban. Also, either in Descent or Fallen, they describe themselves as a Cabal, capitalized. So they are probably part of the same group that contacted the Alpha Legion.

It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Liono is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other

Angron rolls with a posse of a score of Bloodthirsters and takes out almost an entire company of Grey Knights on his way out.

Montarion gets curb-stomped by a newb on his first mission.

What books are you refering too? : )

iDevour wrote:

Angron rolls with a posse of a score of Bloodthirsters and takes out almost an entire company of Grey Knights on his way out.

Montarion gets curb-stomped by a newb on his first mission.

What books are you refering too? : )

The First War of Armageddon and the Grey Knights book respectively.
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years.
Mortarion is knocked down by Draigo, a regular Grey Knight, who carves the previous Supreme Grand Master's name into the Daemon Primarchs heart after getting a jump on his entire retinue of likely Plague marines and Plaguebearers and Great Unclean Ones.

AvatarForm wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:We are never given the lions actual height..... He was the same size as Leman Russ...... Which was pretty short.

This is from HH novels?

deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?

Which HH novel is this from?

Seriously, no sources?

LakotaWolf wrote:It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Liono is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other

Interesting? Maybe, but completely disconnected from the facts as given. We are aware of the location of the Lion as an omniscient third-party, we meet the character of Lord Cypher who loves his pistols in the HH books. Lionel is not Cypher.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years. .

It was 100, and 95 perished. Remember, this is back when Grey Knights were these uber paragons that were only seen a squad of terminators at a time, teleported into the heart of the daemonic corruption, leaving the rhino driving and whatnot to regular Astartes. You know, before Matthew came and fethed it all up.

Omegus wrote:

LakotaWolf wrote:It is an interesting concept and with as secretive as the DA are this would be the ultimate secret that Lion is truly not in the rock........I like it........fits with their lore........truly though not sure about him really being cypher but its one hell of a concept........him being cypher and playing weak......make sense in the fact he would have a target on his head like none other

Interesting? Maybe, but completely disconnected from the facts as given. We are aware of the location of the Lion as an omniscient third-party, we meet the character of Lord Cypher who loves his pistols in the HH books. Lionel is not Cypher.

I'm not sure why the Lion would "have a target on his head like none other". Nobody knows about the Dark Angels' Big Secret.

iproxtaco wrote:
Angron attacks Armageddon with a host of World Eaters and Khorne Daemons. He has a personal guard of Bloodthirsters. About 200 Grey Knights are killed to banish him for 101 years. .

It was 100, and 95 perished. Remember, this is back when Grey Knights were these uber paragons that were only seen a squad of terminators at a time, teleported into the heart of the daemonic corruption, leaving the rhino driving and whatnot to regular Astartes. You know, before Matthew came and fethed it all up.

The Rhino Driving and Power Armored Grey Knights came before Ward was even at GW. He continued the theme, likely because he was told to by people above his head.

PAGK, Rhinos, etc is the result of Andy Chambers, Graham McNeill, and Phil Kelly.

Alright, well then screw those guys too. And Gav Thrope while we're at it.

Bring back Rick Priestley!

Omegus wrote:
Bring back Rick Priestley!

He retired.

Right, that's why he is currently working for their competitor. If it's retirement, it was forced one way or the other.

Pretty sure his wife is still working for the Black Library as the 'head of canon'.

Uh, Alan Merrett is the head honcho over the GW intellectual property, or as you put it, "head of canon". That's been the case for quite a while, too.

Unless you're saying that him and Priestley are gay-married. In which case, shouldn't they have the same last name?

Alan Merrett is the head of GW's IP, meaning he's the one in charge of overseeing how it's distributed/handled(from what I've been given to understand at least).

Lindsey Priestly has been mentioned multiple times by various authors as "being in charge of canon".

Oh good, now we know who to blame. Are the Priestleys going through a nasty divorce and she's trying to get back at him by letting people gak all over his original idea?

Uh, Lindsey Priestley is the one who is basically making sure the Horus Heresy makes sense.

And it makes perfect sense, as long as you accept the core concept that all the Primarchs were petulant toddlers.

Omegus wrote: all the Primarchs were petulant toddlers.

Been that way since they invented Primarchs.

Well the Lion was more an angry toddler with no idea how people work.

As opposed to Horus who was a petulant child who "didn't want the responsibility he was given", Peturabo who was apparently 'jealous' of Rogal Dorn's fame, or Lorgar who 'didn't want to be a warrior'?

I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.

Perturabo was just bitter because he seemed to get all the ignoble boring jobs, until he and his warriors just began to relish killing stuff.

Lorgar was a big vagina.