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Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
in the DA codex Jonson disappeared when Caliban was destroyed. How can some say he is in the rock? What is that reference and is it black library or actual canon?
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Where the hell is this coming from? The 'summoning daemons' bit is speculation. The Dark Angels and Calibanite insurgency were under the impression that the Imperials were 'trying to summon something from beyond'--although Zahariel makes a statement that amounts to 'I knew that it was a lie. They weren't trying to summon it...they were trying to banish it.'
There's also the fact that Caliban apparently was just rife with corruption, period.
Luther and Zahariel summon a daemon to possess Zahariel.
Did I somehow end up with a different copy of the book than every one else. That whole "they were trying to banish it" does not appear in my copy.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
DarknessEternal wrote:He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
That was one guy, and one guy only, who eventually came to see the Imperium as invaders and sorcerers. The Lion betrayed pretty much the entirety of his original knightly order, denying them the honor of warriors and sentencing them to a baby-sitting job. And even when they faithfully followed his orders to the letter (creating the most efficient Astartes training regimen... from initiate to battle-ready in 2 years, with 98% implant success ratio) for half a century, he didn't even bother to read their reports. He deserved to get his ass ventilated.
DarknessEternal wrote:He sent back people that decided summoning daemons was a dandy thing to do. He may not have been the best people person, but that seems like it worked out in the end.
That was one guy, and one guy only, who eventually came to see the Imperium as invaders and sorcerers. The Lion betrayed pretty much the entirety of his original knightly order, denying them the honor of warriors and sentencing them to a baby-sitting job. And even when they faithfully followed his orders to the letter (creating the most efficient Astartes training regimen... from initiate to battle-ready in 2 years, with 98% implant success ratio) for half a century, he didn't even bother to read their reports. He deserved to get his ass ventilated.
Aswell as being over they're quota for supplies (even though that did mean dipping into their own supplies) but Jhonson did not know that. Jhonson should have at least replied to the fact he was getting more ammo than he needed.
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
"Those who knew"? The only other person to know of Luther's momentary lapse of reason is that librarian guy, who learned of it right when Luther regained his senses. The "best" scenario can't be the case, because even the Lion would know that denying these warriors the glory of battle so they can baby-sit newbs is the worst possible punishment. And before they were sent back, the librarian turned and saw the Lion looking at all of them with rank suspicion. My opinion is that Luther was freaked out by the Daemon they encountered, and in his usual "I am R2D2" manner of thinking, decided that since Calaban has a similar taint on its surface, the Calaban knights may have a 0.001% greater chance of being corrupted by Chaos, therefore none of them could be trusted. He made a decision that they may be a liability, consigned them to Calaban, and forgot all about them. It was a betrayal in every sense of the word.
Then, of course, there's the idiocy of nominating the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher. Oh, and giving Perturabo the siege weapons that could crack the Palace walls because he was more concerned about who would be Warmaster after Horus than winning the war. Durpaderp.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/19 19:01:06
Omegus wrote:I would say the Lion's betrayal of his warriors puts him a notch below Horus, since he didn't have that whole brink of death/Chaos ritual excuse to fall back on.
Wait, what? Are you referring to the fact that he sent Luther and them back to Caliban?
Because we do not actually KNOW it was "betrayal". That's the excuse the Fallen use to justify their reason for seceding from the Imperium.
At worst, it was The Lion sending the individual who would have allowed him to be assassinated(Luther) back to Caliban and those who 'knew' Luther's plan being sent back as well.
At best, it was The Lion sending the individual he trusted the most back to indoctrinate the Legion's new recruits in The Mysteries of the Order and train them in the same way that The Lion was.
"Those who knew"? The only other person to know of Luther's momentary lapse of reason is that librarian guy, who learned of it right when Luther regained his senses.
Actually, Zahariel is what pushed Luther to NOT allow it to happen.
The "best" scenario can't be the case, because even the Lion would know that denying these warriors the glory of battle so they can baby-sit newbs is the worst possible punishment.
...Really? He sent Zahariel--who he had confided in and trusted--back with Luther--the man who'd raised and tutored him about the importance of tradition.
And before they were sent back, the librarian turned and saw the Lion looking at all of them with rank suspicion. My opinion is that Luther was freaked out by the Daemon they encountered, and in his usual "I am R2D2" manner of thinking, decided that since Caliban has a similar taint on its surface, the Caliban knights may have a 0.001% greater chance of being corrupted by Chaos, therefore none of them could be trusted. He made a decision that they may be a liability, consigned them to Caliban, and forgot all about them. It was a betrayal in every sense of the word.
I think you're confusing Luther with The Lion.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion. There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
Then, of course, there's the idiocy of nominating the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus to be the Lord Cypher.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
Oh, and giving Perturabo the siege weapons that could crack the Palace walls because he was more concerned about who would be Warmaster after Horus than winning the war. Durpaderp.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
And yet in Age of Darkness, he suspects Roubote of having Imperial ambitions simply because Roubote didn't add "pretty please with a cherry on top" to his summons. Hmm, yes, suspect the guy who has always been a paragon of warriors and administrators, and second only to Horus in the Emperor's favor. Don't suspect the guy who they refer to as "our bitter brother" who has been disaffected for centuries (as a contrast, Guilliman suspected even that flower-child Vulkan and designed appropriate contingencies). Sure, you can attribute this to his complete inability to gauge a person's motivations/feelings/loyalties, but that's a pretty horrendous flaw to have for someone who wants to be second in command in the entire Imperium. Surely someone who is so smart would realize that you can't lead people if you can't relate to them or understand them? All his prodigious powers of logical thinking are for naught, because he wastes them trying to advance his own station and pouting over seeming disrespect from other Primarchs.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
This is obviously false, since many Primarchs thought the "things that lurk in the Empyrean" are peculiar Xenos. None of them were aware of the true nature of these beings. Even Magnus only had the most rudimentary understanding, and he spent half his time walking in the Warp.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion.
Spoiler:
As they boarded the Stormbirds, Zahariel felt a strange sensation of unease along his spine, and he turned to discover its source. Lion El’Jonson was looking straight at him.
Granted, it doesn't spell out suspicion, but this is right after their encounter with the Daemon and right before their exile. Whatever that look meant, it certainly wasn't a positive thing.
There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
The Lion never expresses regret about anything, ever. In Fallen Angels, we learn the following:
Spoiler:
The departure of Luther and the rest had been sudden, almost businesslike, and at the time Nemiel had assumed, like everyone
else, that they would be back with the fleet before long. But Jonson had never spoken of them again - he no longer even read the regular
dispatches from Caliban, relegating that task to members of his staff. Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the
primarch's mind, and as the years lengthened into decades, rumour and speculation had begun to circulate through the ranks. ... Primarch Jonson
made no attempt to address anyof the rumours, and over time they were forgotten. No one spoke of the exiles much any more, except as a
cautionary tale to new initiates: once you fell from grace with Lion El'Jonson, you were never likely to rise again.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
None of the Dark Angels were indoctrinated, they all retained their memories and personalities from before their Astartification (is that a word?). Also in Fallen Angels, we are told this:
Spoiler:
Little more than a week after being deployed on their first campaign, Zahariel and more than five hundred of his brothers - over half a chapter -
discovered they had been dismissed.
Yes, less than a week of "fighting/crusading" is totally exhausting for a man who was practically the equal of the Lion in accomplishments even before he was enhanced out the wazoo.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
From Fallen Angels:
Spoiler:
When Lion El'Jonson became Grand Master of the Order it had been expected that he would name Master Remiel to the
position; instead, he raised up a little-known knight younger than Luther or many other high-ranking peers.
You know what, this is a waste of time, since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about/are seeing things through your own personal filter. I suggest you actually read the books we're discussing next time.
Perturabo hadn't declared himself 'for Horus' yet. He used the weapons that The Lion gave him on Istvaan, yes. That doesn't mean The Lion knew he was going to, even if he was politicking to get Perturabo to back him.
And yet in Age of Darkness, he suspects Roubote of having Imperial ambitions simply because Roubote didn't add "pretty please with a cherry on top" to his summons. Hmm, yes, suspect the guy who has always been a paragon of warriors and administrators, and second only to Horus in the Emperor's favor. Don't suspect the guy who they refer to as "our bitter brother" who has been disaffected for centuries (as a contrast, Guilliman suspected even that flower-child Vulkan and designed appropriate contingencies). Sure, you can attribute this to his complete inability to gauge a person's motivations/feelings/loyalties, but that's a pretty horrendous flaw to have for someone who wants to be second in command in the entire Imperium. Surely someone who is so smart would realize that you can't lead people if you can't relate to them or understand them? All his prodigious powers of logical thinking are for naught, because he wastes them trying to advance his own station and pouting over seeming disrespect from other Primarchs.
The reason there was 'such emphasis' placed in Age of Darkness is that Age of Darkness takes place after Istvaan.
Istvaan changed everything in terms of the relationships between the Astartes and the Primarchs. Before then, any 'rivalry' was completely symbolic at best, with no real violence escalating.
The Lion, like all the Primarchs, was aware of the things that lurk in the Empyrean.
This is obviously false, since many Primarchs thought the "things that lurk in the Empyrean" are peculiar Xenos. None of them were aware of the true nature of these beings. Even Magnus only had the most rudimentary understanding, and he spent half his time walking in the Warp.
That's suspect, because Horus makes mention of them as 'peculiar Xenos'.
They refuse to use the term 'daemon' because of the idea that there has to be a rational explanation. That doesn't mean they're not aware of what it might truly be.
Zahariel never 'sees' anything about the Lion looking at them with suspicion.
Spoiler:
As they boarded the Stormbirds, Zahariel felt a strange sensation of unease along his spine, and he turned to discover its source. Lion El’Jonson was looking straight at him.
Granted, it doesn't spell out suspicion, but this is right after their encounter with the Daemon and right before their exile. Whatever that look meant, it certainly wasn't a positive thing.
It spells out nothing, outside of Zahariel perhaps having some form of premonition. That's not entirely unheard of.
There's mention of 'regret', but that's what happens when you send your trusted confidants and mentors away from the warzone to ensure the troops coming are to the same caliber as the ones you've lost. This garbage about 'forgetting all about them' as well is ridiculous, and is Luther's argument towards those who were sent back with him.
The Lion never expresses regret about anything, ever. In Fallen Angels, we learn the following:
Spoiler:
The departure of Luther and the rest had been sudden, almost businesslike, and at the time Nemiel had assumed, like everyone
else, that they would be back with the fleet before long. But Jonson had never spoken of them again - he no longer even read the regular
dispatches from Caliban, relegating that task to members of his staff. Luther and the rest seemed to have been entirely banished from the
primarch's mind, and as the years lengthened into decades, rumour and speculation had begun to circulate through the ranks. ... Primarch Jonson
made no attempt to address anyof the rumours, and over time they were forgotten. No one spoke of the exiles much any more, except as a
cautionary tale to new initiates: once you fell from grace with Lion El'Jonson, you were never likely to rise again.
Also: you have to remember that Luther? Luther was never given the full Astartes treatment. He was getting on in age, and was also never given the same indoctrination the rest of the Astartes were. He remained the same individual he was when he saved The Lion from a hunter, but he also was getting old and tired of fighting/crusading "in the name of an Empire that cared not for him and ruined the world he fought so hard to save."
None of the Dark Angels were indoctrinated, they all retained their memories and personalities from before their Astartification (is that a word?). Also in Fallen Angels, we are told this:
Spoiler:
Little more than a week after being deployed on their first campaign, Zahariel and more than five hundred of his brothers - over half a chapter -
discovered they had been dismissed.
Yes, less than a week of "fighting/crusading" is totally exhausting for a man who was practically the equal of the Lion in accomplishments even before he was enhanced out the wazoo.
...They were not deployed on their "first campaign". They had been in quite a bit more prior.
The Lord Cypher nominated his Successor, not the Master of the Order.
From Fallen Angels:
Spoiler:
When Lion El'Jonson became Grand Master of the Order it had been expected that he would name Master Remiel to the
position; instead, he raised up a little-known knight younger than Luther or many other high-ranking peers.
You know what, this is a waste of time, since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about/are seeing things through your own personal filter. I suggest you actually read the books we're discussing next time.
And I'd suggest you do the same, but we know that's not going to happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/19 22:03:56
LOL, hilarious. I provide citations from the book that completely contradict your statements (everything in the spoiler sections are DIRECT VERBATIM QUOTES from the books), and the best you can do is "nu uh, I know you are, but what am I!"?
You are a joke. This conversation is over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/19 22:07:55
Seriously though just not saying it because Im an avid Dark Angel player and fan the Lions fluff is definitely in my top 3 compared to the other primarchs. Magnus and Alpharius / Omegon are my favs for sure though.
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No lion el'jonson cant be cypher remember that lion is a primarch and that primarchs are of super human height and that if lion had turned to chaos it is more than likely that his chapter would have fallen to chaos too but the dark angels still fight for redemption loyal to they're emperor, cypher is just a fallen angel in search for lions sword shards to re forge the lion's sword to present to the emperor again one day..Also on siege of Vraks the dark angels sent over half they're chapters worth of help to the death korp and if the dark angels were secretively with chaos they wouldn't make such a sacrifice.
Nice use of punctuation. Those on Caliban may or may not have fallen to Chaos, but it seems unlikely given the way the HH novels are going at the moment. Apart from Luther's weird tatoos.
If it's the same Cypher from that time, I would be suspicious of whatever he plans to do with the Lion Sword, which he already has.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
I thought Luthor was in the Rock and waiting for the Lion to return because the Chaos Gods were mad that Luthor had faileid to kill the Lion (even though he wasn't their servant) and ripped the Warp and El'Johnson went flying out into space?
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SerQuintus wrote: Horus was redeemed at the end. He didn't belong to them any more.
Psienesis wrote: "Redeemed" in the sense that even his soul was obliterated, sure.
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Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:I thought Luthor was in the Rock and waiting for the Lion to return because the Chaos Gods were mad that Luthor had faileid to kill the Lion (even though he wasn't their servant) and ripped the Warp and El'Johnson went flying out into space?
It is known for a fact that the Lion is sleeping in the Rock, guarded by the Watchers.
Luthor is in the Rock as a prisoner of the DAs, who are holding him in stasis(occasionally bringing him out to beat him up) to wait for the Lion to return.
the DA chapter doesn't know the Lion is in the Rock, but we, the all-most all-knowing 3rd party, know this.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Oh, I swear in a summary or something he got shot into Space and Luthor is waiting for him to return to the Rock so he can like apologize or something like that and the Interrogator Chaplains can't break him to admit his heresy but they, uhhh how do I put this? um, Mindraped him I guess? lol.
The Dark Angels are my fav Space Marine Chapter and I would like to know if you could point me in the right direction to find this info.
1500 Points - 9 Wins, 2 Draws, 4 Losses
SerQuintus wrote: Horus was redeemed at the end. He didn't belong to them any more.
Psienesis wrote: "Redeemed" in the sense that even his soul was obliterated, sure.
He's hidden in the Rock, Luther believes he will wake up when all the other primarchs return and will forgive Luther and the Fallen.
Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. You can play the best chess in the world, but at the end of the day the pigeon will still knock all the pieces off the board and then gak all over it.
Lions body was recovered by the watchers in the dark and now resides in the rock probably in stasis like Guilliman or possibly some kind of coma. Cypher is just a normal marine as anyone who has ever seen him would have noticed if he was the size of a primarch. Since cypher is actually a title not a name it is possible that one or more fallen have taken on the quest after one dies.
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"Fear not the darkness. Fear that which the darkness hides."
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(")_(") to help him gain world domination
Cypher was once an important part of life on Caliban, but I cant remember what he did. He then went heretic and now everytime he is caught and put in the rock he somehow manages to escape. The Lion, however was not there when his legion turned heretic and was ever loyal to the Emperor.
Grey Templar wrote:now, wasn't it said in Angels of Darkness that Luther is in the rock too?
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther and is trying to break him or force him to repent. He refuses, saying that the Lion will one day return and forgive him.
How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?
Actually, it's stated in the first HH novel (I think it was Horus Rising) that a Space Marine can live forever. He wion't because of fighting, but he can. So, as long as an apothecary sees him after being tortured, what's to prevent him still being alive.
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remember that Luthor isn't a 100% Astartes. He was too old to recieve implants, but was instead given heavy augmentation to be almost the equivilant of an Astartes in strength and physical abilities. Many of the Fallen are like this. while they wear PA, their bodies retain proportions closer to a human then a Space Marine.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote:remember that Luthor isn't a 100% Astartes. He was too old to recieve implants, but was instead given heavy augmentation to be almost the equivilant of an Astartes in strength and physical abilities. Many of the Fallen are like this. while they wear PA, their bodies retain proportions closer to a human then a Space Marine.
True, but 41st millinium astartes arent pure either. I think luther could've lived that long with junevat works and/or stasis.
some int he first couple of pages said the the lord cypher was neutral.
I don't think he was since in fallen angels, he shots israfael (libby from terra) that was trying to stop luther from using the chaos powers.
Also, Israfael does not die. I jsut finished Fallen angels and luther revive him using (what I guess would be enunciation sicne he apparently spoke words that revived Zahariel and normal chaos rituals requires wards and sacrifices). Luther then ask Zahariel if he knows the real name of Ouroboros and Zahariel says he does not while the truth is he does. He is not possesed by a deamon as far as the book goes.
PS: I there a 3rd DAHH booK?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/23 14:19:09
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No 3rd book, yet. You can probably bet there will be, we still need Caliban to get nuked. although that doesn't happen until around the Battle for Terra so we are probably waiting for everyone to catch up.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ahhhhhh its quite interesting and entertaining to read all these theories and comments from 12 years ago, now that the Lion has actually returned to the Galaxy.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
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