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Darthslowe wrote:First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos.

Well apart from all the Fallen that do follow chaos.

GW fluff is quite clean, the Lion is asleep in the rock being watched by the watchers.

The bigger question is, what are they looking at

BluntmanDC wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos.

Well apart from all the Fallen that do follow chaos.

Which we don't actually have numbers on how many Fallen fell or how many of those Fallen later turned to Chaos.

Right, as of now according to "Fallen Angels", the Dark Angels who 'become the Fallen' haven't been seduced by Chaos. Luther has been seemingly tainted, but hasn't declared himself or Caliban for Horus or Chaos.

They've simply declared that Caliban is seceding from the Imperium of Man.

Kanluwen wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

Darthslowe wrote:First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos.

Well apart from all the Fallen that do follow chaos.

Which we don't actually have numbers on how many Fallen fell or how many of those Fallen later turned to Chaos.

Right, as of now according to "Fallen Angels", the Dark Angels who 'become the Fallen' haven't been seduced by Chaos. Luther has been seemingly tainted, but hasn't declared himself or Caliban for Horus or Chaos.

They've simply declared that Caliban is seceding from the Imperium of Man.

I was pointing out that the blanket statement is incorrect as fluff has clearly said that some Fallen had turned to chaos.

Yeah, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that retconned soon.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther

According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther

According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).

And to the successor chapters of the Unforgiven?

wulfric_1066 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther

According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).

And to the successor chapters of the Unforgiven?

Nope, there's only one Supreme Grand Master. The chapter masters of the Unforgiven are just Grand Masters. The Dark Angels legion stopped existing in name only. Their chapter master is still in charge of all the other successor chapters.

DarknessEternal wrote:

wulfric_1066 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther

According to Codex Dark Angels, that knowledge is limited to the single Supreme Grand Master (otherwise known as the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels).

And to the successor chapters of the Unforgiven?

Nope, there's only one Supreme Grand Master. The chapter masters of the Unforgiven are just Grand Masters. The Dark Angels legion stopped existing in name only. Their chapter master is still in charge of all the other successor chapters.

Right, currently Azrael. Think of the other Unforgiven as subsidiaries of the Dark Angels. They do their own thing, but ultimately Azrael still is technically the leader of them all.

I think the OP and current fluff might both be correct. Cypher could be simply a projection of the Lion's guilt over the failure of his Legion (and of his own failure). He has sent it back to Terra to ask for forgiveness, since he is unable to go himself.

Magister187 wrote:I think the OP and current fluff might both be correct. Cypher could be simply a projection of the Lion's guilt over the failure of his Legion (and of his own failure). He has sent it back to Terra to ask for forgiveness, since he is unable to go himself.

In current fluff the OP cannot be correct, although your idea maybe correct, if he is a projection he still wouldn't actually be the lion

Kanluwen wrote:

How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?

Sounds plausible to me - good explanation, actually!

Toastedandy wrote:Doesn't Cypher only have 2 wounds? mystery solved.

Lol awesome comment.

Lots of good points but it is it plausible Cypher might actually be Luther? The Lion is at the bottom of the rock. I always had though that Cypher was supposed to kinda represent Luther as an escaped version from the rock as him.

Asherian Command wrote:We are never given the lions actual height..... He was the same size as Leman Russ...... Which was pretty short.

This is from HH novels?

deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?

Which HH novel is this from?

Cypher is exactly what GW wants him to be, a mystery.

Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.

Grey Templar wrote:The bigger question is, what are they looking at

And for 10K years... Surely they are a bunch of sick voyeours

moonshine wrote:Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.

I agree with you on this. But I do think Cypher may possibly be an escaped version of Luther himself..........

Spartan 117 wrote:

moonshine wrote:Wait wasn't Cypher the last knight of lupus and Jhonson gave him the rank of Cypher ? And then Luther and Cypher were sent back to caliban because Jhonson knew the imperium would blow it up one day anyway ? I don't think Cypher is Jhonson but I do think he knows somthing the rest of us don't.

I agree with you on this. But I do think Cypher may possibly be an escaped version of Luther himself..........

No. Once again:

Luther is contained within The Rock. He is not going anywhere, and he has not left the custody of the Dark Angels since the Fall of Caliban.

Does he even want to leave?

purplefood wrote:Does he even want to leave?

Luther enjoys long bloody toture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he commited a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.

Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a Midget compared to his wolfguard. The Lion was always described as Russ's equal and rival, so then he would be short.

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:Does he even want to leave?

Luther enjoys long bloody torture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he committed a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.

You do realize he's not constantly tortured or anything, right? The Master of the Dark Angels and his most trusted individuals(usually Interrogator-Chaplains) have access to Luther. That's it, and considering most of those individuals are constantly at war or leading some kind of deployment means it's a rare thing that Luther gets tortured or interrogated.

Usually when it happens, there's been some kind of rippling amongst the Librarians or there's been confirmed sightings of Cypher.

Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a midget compared to his Wolf Guard. The Lion was always described as Russ' equal and rival, so then he would be short.

Er, what?

I have no clue where you get this idea that Leman Russ is a "midget compared to his Wolf Guard". Him and The Lion are both head and shoulders above their progeny, like pretty much every Primarch.

It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.

Kanluwen wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:Does he even want to leave?

Luther enjoys long bloody torture and walks through the torture chamber.
Luther doesn't want to leave he knows (and is right) he committed a sin and should pay for it and all the blood that has been spilled on his account he must be tortured for.

You do realize he's not constantly tortured or anything, right? The Master of the Dark Angels and his most trusted individuals(usually Interrogator-Chaplains) have access to Luther. That's it, and considering most of those individuals are constantly at war or leading some kind of deployment means it's a rare thing that Luther gets tortured or interrogated.

Usually when it happens, there's been some kind of rippling amongst the Librarians or there's been confirmed sightings of Cypher.

Also I don't know where but Leman Russ is a midget compared to his Wolf Guard. The Lion was always described as Russ' equal and rival, so then he would be short.

Er, what?

I have no clue where you get this idea that Leman Russ is a "midget compared to his Wolf Guard". Him and The Lion are both head and shoulders above their progeny, like pretty much every Primarch.

It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.

eh. okay. I follow that, i always pictured leman as a midget compared to his wolfguard.

Your personal perceptions have absolutely nothing to do with canon, Asherian.

Pruney ninja strikes again!

Cypher is the Lord Cypher, the last survivor of the Knights of Lupus.

The Lion is in the Rock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:It's also something where you need to work on comprehension, because The Lion was "always described as Russ' equal" when it came to their skill at single combat. They had a relatively friendly rivalry for the most part, highlighted with a few times where they actually came to blows.

There was nothing "friendly" about the Lion, ever. At one point the Wolves and Angels were supposed to collaborate on some battle (don't remember the gritty details), but the Angels struck first and took care of it before the Wolves had a chance. Russ was all pissed about having his "chance at glory" stolen, so he started a tussle with the Lion. They fought for a few days, until Russ realized he was being a big baby and started laughing about it. The Lion, always serious, took this chance to lay him the feth out and peaced out. The Wolves and Angels have been rivals ever since. Again, there's nothing friendly about it.

A very interesting theory, but allow me to throw a wrench in your works.
There hasn't been real solid fluff on the Primarchs in a long time. Sure, the Lion is in the Rock, Russ is in the Warp, Mortarion got somehow killed by a guy with a silver stick.
But the thing is, and this hurts me as much as it hurts all of you, we know GW would never move the fluff forward enough to actually give us an answer to this.

I love the 40k fluff, it's one of the main reasons I'm still playing. But it seems a bit redundant, to talk about something that probably will never be resolved.

Yeah but I can see why they decided not to advance it. All the fluff points too somthing big happening near the end of the 41st milenium. Also they might not advance the fluff but they do somtimes tell us more about what has happened.

Unless they've changed it, Russ and The Lion, though they dueled several times in their lives, came to a grudging respect for one another, and their respective Legions (and subsequent Chapters) have fought side-by-side several times in the centuries since then. Though some do still hold honor duels and the like, there's been no conclusive winner between them.

.

You'd all be correct, unless... The Lion is disguised as Cypher, and the prisoner in the Rock is the real Cypher! DUN DUN DUUUN!!!