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This is a theory I've been tossing around in my head for awhile. I wanted to run it by all of you so that I could get your take and see if there is anything in the fluff that I'm missing.

Here's why I think that Cypher, the Fallen Angel, is really Lion El'Jonson. First, the Fallen Dark Angels aren't really fallen to chaos. Instead, they just followed the orders of Luther to fire on the returning Dark Angels fleet. They tend to rally around Cypher and, supposedly, Cypher is making his way to Terra to obtain forgiveness for the Fallen. This seems to be a role that the Primarch would fill, seeking redemption for his chapter in an attempt to reunite them.

Second, Cypher possesses the Lion Sword. I'm not quite sure how he could have obtained said weapon without being Lion El'Jonson.

Third, there is no mention of what happened to the Lion after his duel with Luther.

Fourth, Luther maintains that the Lion will return and forgive him. This certainly seems to be what Cypher is trying to do.

Fifth, in the Horus Heresy novels the Lord Cypher is the keeper of rituals, rites, and traditions for the Order and then the Dark Angels. This would be a position that Lion El'Jonson might have taken up himself after the debacle on Caliban.

Well, what do you think?

One problem... Lion El'Jonson is in The Rock. He has been there for 10,000 years, guarded by The Watchers in the Dark.

Say what... what book is that in?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#The_Fate_of_Jonson

Old fluff, I know, but I havent seen anything to disprove it.

Shayden wrote:One problem... Lion El'Jonson is in The Rock. He has been there for 10,000 years, guarded by The Watchers in the Dark.

This.

Interesting theory however. Wrong, but interesting. There is some evidence that support it, you are right. But fluff states that the Lion is in The Rock.

Most specifically, Jonson sleeping in The Rock is mentioned objectively, not as any kind of POV information.

I'm with Darthslowe on this one. I've believed for many years that Cypher is the Lion. "Asleep in the Rock" could easily be a euphemism. Don't forget that the Dark Angels are all about secrets and perhaps the final secret is that "Asleep" is a lie. Perhaps the final secret is that the chapters master has seemingly turned to chaos (though that may not be cypher's true purpose). Now THAT would be something to give the Dark Angels shame. and yes he does have the sword.

cadium and OP, you are both incorrect based upon all existing fluff.

LEJ is in the Rock.

Cypher is the same size as a regular SM. He dual-wields master crafted guns but never draws the sword. He is attempting to return it... always has been. This is established throughout 4 editions of fluff.

/thread

"Asleep in the Rock" isn't said by the Dark Angels.

It's what we, as omniscient viewers of the background, have been told as being in existence.

If El Liono genuinely isn't in the Rock - and that'd be some rather dickish misdirection on GW's part if not - then, as a theory, it makes a lot of sense.

I don't think it's true, but if so, it'd be pretty damn awesome.

It would explain why Cypher is in green armour instead of black... but there are a bunch of more plausible explanations for that.

The biggest problem (other than the whole 'yeah, but he's;s in the rock' thing is really just that Cypher's not big enough or powerful enough to be a Primarch.

No, he really is not.

We are never given the lions actual height..... He was the same size as Leman Russ...... Which was pretty short.

Another problem is that Cypher is clearly a seperate individual.

they are both in the same room at the same time throughout the DA HH books.


Cypher does seem to take a neutral stance during the rebellion, as is his mysterious nature.

Grey Templar wrote:Another problem is that Cypher is clearly a seperate individual.

they are both in the same room at the same time throughout the DA HH books.


Cypher does seem to take a neutral stance during the rebellion, as is his mysterious nature.

Then why hunt him if he didn't do anything?

Wait its because the fallen follow him.

well, he was on Caliban so kinda gets lumped in with them.


most of the Fallen don't serve chaos or simply got tricked into the rebellion.

Grey Templar wrote:well, he was on Caliban so kinda gets lumped in with them.


most of the Fallen don't serve chaos or simply got tricked into the rebellion.

hmmm, so the fallen are being hunted because some of them where at the wrong place at the wrong time?

More like 'some of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and are thus being hunted anyway'.

It's a neat theory. I'm inclined to believe that the Lion is in the Rock myself, but to throw a wrench in the works by discussing The Other Side -- who says the Lion can't pretend to be Cypher, just for kicks?

Cypher fluff doesn't bother me as much as one cell in the rock being told "You were right"

Candroth wrote:More like 'some of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and are thus being hunted anyway'.

More like "all of the Fallen were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and were being used as pawns alongside of Luther to try to force Lion El'Jonson to destroy his homeworld". The important thing to remember is that after Luther struck at the Lion...he felt remorse. There's a reason why the Ruinous Powers flung the Fallen throughout time and space, and it's not because they did a good job.

It's because they fought back against the fate the Ruinous Powers tried to coerce them into...albeit, the damage to Caliban was already done and there's no real hope of salvation or redemption, but they weren't fully tainted.

Think of it like Darth Vader.

It's a neat theory. I'm inclined to believe that the Lion is in the Rock myself, but to throw a wrench in the works by discussing The Other Side -- who says the Lion can't pretend to be Cypher, just for kicks?

Because it's not a subjective piece of information given to us by some claim that's been thrown out there by a character within the canon. It is something that we, the omniscient viewers, know that while the Dark Angels do not. The only individuals who know that Jonson is in a 'secret' cell within the Rock are the Watchers in the Dark.

now, wasn't it said in Angles of Darkness that Luther is in the rock too?

Because it's not a subjective piece of information given to us by some claim that's been thrown out there by a character within the canon. It is something that we, the omniscient viewers, know that while the Dark Angels do not. The only individuals who know that Jonson is in a 'secret' cell within the Rock are the Watchers in the Dark.

And the Big E

Grey Templar wrote:now, wasn't it said in Angels of Darkness that Luther is in the rock too?

Yep. But the Dark Angels know that, because every single Chapter-Master and Interrogator-Chaplain has access to Luther and is trying to break him or force him to repent. He refuses, saying that the Lion will one day return and forgive him.

How in the name of all that's logical or sane Luther is still alive is a mystery to me. Maybe they put him in stasis, revive him and try to make him repent then toss him back in the freezer afterwards?

I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?

Now that is some grim darkness, Kanluwen

deffskulla wrote:I specifically remember in a book, Abbadon calling Cypher "Lord" and Cypher exterminating 2 of his bodyguards with his pistols and drawing faster than Abbadon could track. I would say Primarch in hiding possible, is Abbadon the badest cat around? No 13 fail black crusade anyone?

11 failsades actually.

Grey Templar wrote:Another problem is that Cypher is clearly a seperate individual.

they are both in the same room at the same time throughout the DA HH books.


Cypher does seem to take a neutral stance during the rebellion, as is his mysterious nature.

I'm pretty sure that Cypher is actually a title the DA HH books, and that when you accept it your old name is to be forgotten when you take the title, but I think I packed the books away so I'm going to have trouble substantiating that.

EDIT: The OP covers this...the Cypher in the HH novels is not necessarily the same as the Cypher in current day.

I'm also pretty sure that the Cypher in the HH books is an (much) older man

The first Cypher we're introduced to is an older man, yes.

The one that he chooses to follow him before he wanders off into the wilderness on one last great hunt is a younger man and one of the leftovers from the knights that the Order wiped out.

yes, but my point was that the current Cypher has appeared in the same room as Johnson and so they can't be the same.

Doesn't Cypher only have 2 wounds? mystery solved.