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Swift Lord is right Horus did trick Russ, but it wasn't simple at all. Russ wasn't an idiot he might not have been the brightest Primarch they were all incredibly intelligent. Horus left an incriminating trail and Russ followed it, but even if Horus had told him directly he was the Warmaster so what he said is the will of The Emperor. Russ did make the a great mistake though and should have trusted Big E's judgement.

He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

SwiftLord14 wrote:He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

That's mostly what I was saying. I have a feeling Magnus would have turned sooner or later anyway. Horus was a political mastermind it was the main reason he was warmaster. He made a mistake, but saying the Imperium was doomed because of the Wolves is ridiculous.

Yea for sure Nicholas! In the Thousands sons book that little dragon thingy was chaos and was talking to Magnus.

But to stay on subject. I'm sure everyone knows that has read knows that I think the Wolves are the biggest and baddest!

Not sure about biggest and baddest but I'd say they are over the World Eaters

Well Wolves are hunters and in this case they hunt space marines, They've got the fightyness of any chapter, but unlike other chapters their butchering has a pourpose and an objective, were the World eaters just butcher any thing they see the wolves slaughter just as good but never let go of the big picture.

SwiftLord14 wrote:I read Prospero burns and iI don't recall Horus talking to him at all. arse.

For some reason this conversation wasn't mentioned at all in Prospero Burns but has been in A Thousand Sons, False Gods and I think Galaxy in Flames.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

Doesn't Corax in Flight of the Raven state that perhaps only Sanguinius or Russ might be able to best Angron?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Doesn't Corax in Flight of the Raven state that perhaps only Sanguinius or Russ might be able to best Angron?

yup

Nicholas wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:He tricked Russ nuff said. He tricked a lot of other primarchs to. And its called the HORUS HERESY not Russ gets tricked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So saying its Russ' fault is ludacris lol.

That's mostly what I was saying. I have a feeling Magnus would have turned sooner or later anyway. Horus was a political mastermind it was the main reason he was warmaster. He made a mistake, but saying the Imperium was doomed because of the Wolves is ridiculous.

Not really.

Every other Primarch knew what they were doing when they joined Horus and when the loyalist were tricked to go to parts of the galaxy that were too far away to help the Emporer it was because they had no other choice but too listen too Hours orders. When Russ was ordered to kill Magnus it was contradicting the Emporer and he did not question the order to contradict the Emporer.

If you think about it Russ being tricked so eaily did doom the impirium. Tzeentch says that the Space wolves and the Thousand sons are the biggest threats to the Heresy, the Emporer would not have been put on the golden throne and therfore would be able to lead humanity and continue the Great crusade. But since Russ was tricked so easily the Thousand sons were forced into treachary and the Space wolves could not help either.

From Russ's perspective he was only following orders, Horus was the Emperors Warmaster and all Russ was doing was what the Emperor had apparently told him to do. Russ wasn't to know that Horus had turned his back on their father but was maybe a bit naive and over eager to take Magnus down.

Magnus would have gone over eventually, he wouldn't have had much choice in the matter when Tzeentch wanted to call in his debt, much like Mortarion being forced into the service of Nurgle.

I agree with you to a degree Moonshine about the Primarchs knowing what they were doing by joining Horus, but I am not sure if they were expecting themselves to be forced into the service of Chaos. They thought that what they were doing was for the benefit of Imperium, not to doom it to eternal war.

Grey elder wrote:Well Wolves are hunters and in this case they hunt space marines, They've got the fightyness of any chapter, but unlike other chapters their butchering has a pourpose and an objective, were the World eaters just butcher any thing they see the wolves slaughter just as good but never let go of the big picture.

If you read Battle of the Fang, the Wolves' ability to see the big picture is dubious at best. Anyway, when talking about battles between primarchs, the abilities of the regular space marines are irrelevant. You're considering a battle between an M1A1 and a T-90M, and then wondering if giving one side a guy with an uzi will make a difference.

The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well. Only three legions were actually able to make it to Terra because of Horus manipulating people. It wasn't because he tricked the Wolves that the Imperium is what it is now, it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

Nicholas wrote:The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well.

Have you read Age of Darkness as this isn't entirely the case now.

Nicholas wrote:it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

I think you'll find Chaos tricked everyone

moonshine wrote:
Every other Primarch knew what they were doing when they joined Horus

No, it was hidden from them. Only Lorgar knew the ramificaitons of Horus' plan.

The Night Haunter, in fact, was betrayed by the traitors as early as the dropsite massacre.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Nicholas wrote:The ones who turned traitor weren't the ones who were tricked they all turned for their own reason. Horus tricked half the legions he knew would stay loyal to keep them away, for example he made sure Guillman and the Ultras were too far away too do anything as well.

Have you read Age of Darkness as this isn't entirely the case now.

Nicholas wrote:it is because he tricked nearly everyone.

I think you'll find Chaos tricked everyone

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Nicholas wrote:

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Oh yeah, that part is still the case, but there are some revelations in Age of Darkness as to the whereabouts, missions and shall we say, agendas, of the loyalist Legions.

Guilliman in particular has a few.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

No did not get to Age of Darkness yet that was what I was led to believe though. Horus couldn't face all the Loyal legions so he spread them out.

Oh yeah, that part is still the case, but there are some revelations in Age of Darkness as to the whereabouts, missions and shall we say, agendas, of the loyalist Legions.

Guilliman in particular has a few.

I'll take your word for it

I just want to clarify something I've seen in his thread about The Lion and The Wolf:

Its clearly stated in the SW Codex that both Chapters were fighting against some traitors held up in some sort of fortified tower and after they killed the traitors Lion and Russ got into a duel. They fought for days on end, then Russ eventually realized that their fight was ridiculous and started laughing about it. Being the guy with his panties too tight in a bundle, Lion took offense to it and sucker punched him. That is not "soundly besting" anyone. That's being a complete coward towards one own brother of all things.

'nuff said.

In Jonson's defense, Russ did start that particular fight.

daveNYC wrote:In Jonson's defense, Russ did start that particular fight.

By sucker punching Jonson no less.

FireWolf698 wrote:I just want to clarify something I've seen in his thread about The Lion and The Wolf:

Its clearly stated in the SW Codex that both Chapters were fighting against some traitors held up in some sort of fortified tower and after they killed the traitors Lion and Russ got into a duel. They fought for days on end, then Russ eventually realized that their fight was ridiculous and started laughing about it. Being the guy with his panties too tight in a bundle, Lion took offense to it and sucker punched him. That is not "soundly besting" anyone. That's being a complete coward towards one own brother of all things.

'nuff said.

Did you read the part where The Lion threw him through a table and then knocked him unconscious? Russ started the fight, The Lion gave him what he deserved for being childish in the first place.

The Lion just left the Wolves hanging on the world, Dulan. Russ lost a lot of guys until the Dark Angels came back. (They did the same thing in the second Space Wolf Omi.) He deserved to get attacked.

Not really.

moonshine wrote:Not really.

They left the flank of the wolves undefended to claim victory for themselves and many SW died because of it.
A short transmission telling the wolves about it would have been enough for them to move forces in to defend their flank but they didn't.
Russ was annoyed at that and because the Lion didn't allow him a chance to avenge himself on the tyrant for insulting him, his response was childish but the Lion should have at least warned the wolves he was leaving their flank unguarded.

If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.

moonshine wrote:If anything I think the Space wolves would have done the same to the dark angels if they had more time.

Debatable...
The SW have a code of honour. They don't desert people and leave them vulnerable. If Russ had taken the opportunity and charged he would have left the flank with a guard or at least warned the Dark Angels.

None of the Primarch's ever play nice with each other.

As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".

Index Astartes: Space Wolves

In the Emperor's eyes, the Thousand Sons had probed too deeply into mysteries better left alone, willingly walking into the lair of the beast. Magnus' explanations did not pacify the Emperor, and Russ' worst suspicions were confirmed. At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.

Index Astartes: Space Wolves

Prospero was once the very image of paradise. Great towers of ice and ivory studded the landscape, and beautiful gardens and peaceful lakes were abundant. Russ believed that this veneer of civilisation and culture hid a roiling foundation of evil. In his eyes, every scholar, scribe and sorcerer had delved too far into the mire of Chaos, had drunk too deeply from the blasphemous waters of forbidden knowledge. There was no option; the Wolf-King knew that he must follow the Emperor's command to the letter: cast down the Thousand Sons.

Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The content of Magnus's warning was ignored completely. It is said the Emperor broke contact with such force that psychic wards throughout the Palace arced with lightning and shattered. At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.

Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper

Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.

Battle of the Fang, pg 391

Magnus lost his smile.

"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I know think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."

Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.

Brother Ramses wrote:As many as there is known SW haters in this thread, some things need to be put straight about who ordered Russ to Prospero and whether it was a mission of, "arresting" or "sanction".

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Space Wolves

At Russ' insistence, the Emperor was persuaded that Magnus was the traitor, not Horus. Horrifed, the Emperor commanded Russ to leave immediately for the Thousand Sons' homeworld. The Wolf-King mustered his Legions about him, and once more prepared to go to war.

Nice one Russ

Brother Ramses wrote:Index Astartes: Thousand Sons

The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted upon to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero.

Brother Ramses wrote:A Thousand Sons, pg 478

"Leman Russ hates us, but even he would never dare attack us without orders", said Ahriman, thinking aloud. "This order must come from a higher source. It comes from the Emperor - it is the only explanation. My lord, what are you not telling us?"

"Always the perceptive one, Ahzek," said Magnus, and the eye swam into sharp focus once more, its hue filled with resignation.

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 386

"You must have known our father's hands would be tied. He would have no other option then to turn to me to issue sanction." Russ to Magnus via Kasper

Brother Ramses wrote:Prospero Burns, pg 394

The All-father told the Rout what task he needed them to do, and it was done.

Brother Ramses wrote:Battle of the Fang, pg 456

"....Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."

Brother Ramses wrote:As has been done in other threads about the Wolves and whoever and whatever, I am sure everything will be ignored and personal bias will dictate the rest of this thread.

I don't think it's a case of people ignoring or being haters, it's a case of there being conflicting accounts. All the fluff is from different perspectives, accounts and times, so which version is correct? I don't think Games Workshop will ever say.

The person responsible for sending the Wolves to Prospero I don't think is in question, but the Emperors motives are, was Russ sent to bring Magnus back to Terra or was he sent to kill him.

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

About the World Eaters, they are mindless barbarians that can't be controlled, they are an atom bomb to the Space Wolves reapers scythe.

moonshine wrote:But I still do not get why Space wolves are described as the most dangerous legion.

Because they're vicious, wild killers who can control their rage.That is why they are the most dangerous.