Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?


Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.

Generally, even the rituals involve psykers. Unless we're talking about deamon summonings here.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?


Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.

Generally, even the rituals involve psykers. Unless we're talking about deamon summonings here.

Actually daemon summoning is the ritual which requires psykers the most. It uses psykers heads/minds as a gate through which daemons enter the world.

When it comes to sorcery, psychic power is merely a tool which can increase what you can do with said sorcery. For some rituals I have no doubt it's needed, but it isn't absolutely necessary, as non-psykers can still be powerful and accomplished sorcerers.

Melissia wrote:For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.

Isn't "psychic power" just a conscious way to manipulate the warp, essentially making ritualized sorcery another approach to the same end goal? Faith could well be a (subconscious, emotion-based) third one. Would explain the Living Saints.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.

Isn't "psychic power" just a conscious way to manipulate the warp, essentially making ritualized sorcery another approach to the same end goal?

Being a psyker is genetic, a testable trait, and the effects of psychic powers are quite distinct and discernable from normal conditions.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?


Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.

Generally, even the rituals involve psykers. Unless we're talking about deamon summonings here.

Actually daemon summoning is the ritual which requires psykers the most. It uses psykers heads/minds as a gate through which daemons enter the world.

When it comes to sorcery, psychic power is merely a tool which can increase what you can do with said sorcery. For some rituals I have no doubt it's needed, but it isn't absolutely necessary, as non-psykers can still be powerful and accomplished sorcerers.

When?

I'm genuinely curious here, I can't think of any 'Sorcerors' where the term 'powerful psyker' didn't also fit.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm genuinely curious here, I can't think of any 'Sorcerors' where the term 'powerful psyker' didn't also fit.

The sorcerers in the third Cain book were never described as psykers. Together they used ritual sacrifice to almost plunge a world into the warp.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.

Isn't "psychic power" just a conscious way to manipulate the warp, essentially making ritualized sorcery another approach to the same end goal?

Being a psyker is genetic.

But everyone, minus Blanks of course, has some influence over the Warp. When you get enough of one emotion it has an effect, after all there was the Birth of Slaanesh (though your average Eldar registers more on the warp then the average human).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm genuinely curious here, I can't think of any 'Sorcerors' where the term 'powerful psyker' didn't also fit.

The sorcerers in the third Cain book were never described as psykers. Together they used ritual sacrifice to almost plunge a world into the warp.

And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.

None of them were described as psykers, none of them showed psychic powers, etc. One can interpret it as "OMG THEY HAD TONS OF POWERFUL PSYKERS!!!111oneoneoen" but that's their choice. Powerful psykers are quite rare though, so that's extremely unlikely. It's more likely that their sacrifices included psykers to enable the daemon summoning aspect. Psykers themselves do not necessarily tend towards enough sanity to organize or even oversee such an event.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:And? It never says that they were lacking in psyker ability.

None of them were described as psykers, none of them showed psychic powers, etc. One can interpret it as "OMG THEY HAD TONS OF POWERFUL PSYKERS!!!111oneoneoen" but that's their choice. Powerful psykers are quite rare...

Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest. Unfortunately Sandy Mitchell didn't forsee that people would nitpick over the use of the word.

You yourself said that some bits of fluff should be ignored, and I agree especially if they contradict the overwhelming majority of canon.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.

No it doesn't.

There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.

No it doesn't.

There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.

Now this I have to see an example of.


Short of Necrons, becuase frankly they're anathema to the warp.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.

No it doesn't.

There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.

Now this I have to see an example of.

It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.

Source is Dark Heresy: Creature's Anathema.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Or it could be a case of Sorceror = Psyker, which every other bit of 40k lore seems to suggest.

No it doesn't.

There's the existence of MACHINES which are capable of altering the warp or using warp energy, with no psychic power necessary. There's even machines which can summon daemons without the use of a psyker, all it uses is a series of complex movements and rituals.

Now this I have to see an example of.

It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.

Source is Dark Heresy: Creature's Anathema.

So it is, essentially, an artifact that has bound a deamonic creature to it? There are a fair few of those around.

No. It's a meticulously crafted type of object that, when manipulated in the right way, summons a daemon.

It can be created out of metal strips and wicker, with no daemonic presence at all.

Melissia wrote:No. It's a meticulously crafted type of object that, when manipulated in the right way, summons a daemon.

It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine. Likely by a previous ritual.

It can be created out of metal strips and wicker, with no daemonic presence at all.

The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of. But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?

Emperors Faithful wrote:It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine.

No.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of.

...

*looks at open book*

Yes. It. Does.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?

Things with no presence whatsoever in the Immaterium-- soulless machines-- can effect the boundry between the Materium and Immaterium in extremely powerful ways.

THIS IS SORCERY. Imagine what something that DOES have a soul can do?

You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.

Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.

No it doesn't. Stop making things up.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.

No it doesn't. Stop making things up.

Well, look at the Solo boltgun and compare it to FFG's underwhelming take on the Godwyn-De'az.

Sororitas equipment in the RPG is nothing like GW canon describes it. Quite likely due to reasons of balancing, though that doesn't make me feel any better about it.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:You're both argueing over a series of licensed products that - amongst other funny things - want to make you believe PDF receive better equipment than Sisters of Battle.

No it doesn't. Stop making things up.

Well, look at the Solo boltgun and compare it to FFG's underwhelming take on the Godwyn-De'az.

I dislike FFG's Sororitas equipment (it contradicts C:WH, especially the armor value of Sorortas Power Armor), but PDF don't get boltguns, power armor, bolt pistols, or chainswords as standard equipment. Even the best equipped PDF still use autoguns/lasguns, with officers MAYBE being able to afford to buy bolt weapons, a chainsword, or possibly inheriting a power weapon passed down through ancestors/previous occupants of their rank.

Melissia wrote:it contradicts C:WH, especially the armor value of Sorortas Power Armor

Exactly. The quality as well (see the Astartes getting their own quality levels in DW which are of course all better than what SoB could field, despite the Codex talking of equality).

Melissia wrote:but PDF don't get boltguns

As per its description, the Solo boltgun is "popular for PDF forces and insurrectionists alike" (from Into the Storm). Its range and accuracy are superior to FFG's Godwyn-De'az.

The bolter inflation in the RPG is just one of the areas where it deviates massively from GW's take on the setting. They made them less powerful but easier attainable so that everyone can get one...

Don't get me wrong, the RPG introduces a lot of cool ideas, but I'm glad it isn't canon. Well, I wish it would be, if it would be closer to the studio material. :(

Lynata wrote:As per its description, the Solo boltgun is "popular for PDF forces and insurrectionists alike" (from Into the Storm).

And you honestly think that the average PDF soldier can get it? lol. No.

Game stats aside, DH is still more internally consistent than BL is.

When even rebels can get their hands on that gun, professional government military is more likely to do so. For whatever reason, the Solo is described as not being as complex as other bolt weapons (hence the popularity), yet it has superior performance. *shrugs*

Agreed about the internal consistency, of course, but I'll continue to stick to my Codices whenever contradictions with studio material pop up. I love the RPG, but in some areas it really messed up.

Lynata wrote:Agreed about the internal consistency, of course, but I'll continue to stick to my Codices whenever contradictions with studio material pop up. I love the RPG, but in some areas it really messed up.

There's a difference between "codex" and "Black Library". I also stick to the codex first, but FFG's productions are STILL worlds above BL books as far as consistency and quality goes in my view.

Lynata wrote:When even rebels can get their hands on that gun, professional government military is more likely to do so. For whatever reason, the Solo is described as not being as complex as other bolt weapons (hence the popularity), yet it has superior performance. *shrugs*

Um, other way around Lyn.

"Professional government military" has to follow forms, requisition orders, etc etc.

Rebels just have to break into armories.

Kanluwen wrote:Rebels just have to break into armories.

Armouries of the government?

I'm just comparing FFG's take on the setting to GW, where boltguns were really really rare and unique upgrades even for Imperial Guard officers (i.e. not something that gets stockpiled in the first place; I've always taken those upgrades as heirlooms of the officer's noble heritage etc).

Anyways, I suppose we pretty much agree on the basics, if not on the details.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Rebels just have to break into armories.

Armouries of the government?

Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.

They don't just say "Hey guys, I need a bolter!" and suddenly everyone has a bolter.

I'm just comparing FFG's take on the setting to GW, where boltguns were really really rare and unique upgrades even for Imperial Guard officers (i.e. not something that gets stockpiled in the first place; I've always taken those upgrades as heirlooms of the officer's noble heritage etc).

There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds. They're not always associated with 'noble heritage' or any of that garbage, they're just associated with veteran units who can be trusted with weapons that can put down Astartes.

Dark Heresy(which was GW and then FFG's doing) is suffering from the same issue 40k tabletop does. They have to scale things for balance.

Kanluwen wrote:Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.

According to the IG Codex, they don't get released at all beyond the level of an Imperial Guard officer. So why should some PDF stockpile thousands of them? Can't agree with your reasoning there.

Kanluwen wrote:There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds.

Source? If that's some novel...

Kanluwen wrote:Dark Heresy(which was GW and then FFG's doing) is suffering from the same issue 40k tabletop does. They have to scale things for balance.

Absolutely, I just think they could've pulled it off a little more elegantly. Contrary to popular belief, this isn't the first 40k RPG we see, and the other one (the one REALLY made by GW and not BI - small but contextwise important difference) managed to do without ridiculous civilian boltguns and civilian Terminator suits just because someone thought Spess Mehreens need to have better stuff than anyone else, regardless of what GW Codices say.

Considering the Marines' genetically engineered biological superiority, this is actually harmful to balance, as you can't do a proper crossover in the RPG where it should be remotely possible when going by (GW) canon. When you want a balanced play, don't unnecessarily make the most powerful "class" even more powerful and screw the rest.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which require forms, requisition, and authorization for the government to release to troops.

According to the IG Codex, they don't get released at all beyond the level of an Imperial Guard officer. So why should some PDF stockpile thousands of them? Can't agree with your reasoning there.

Who said anything about them having thousands of them?
I said government armouries, which might have a few dozen at most. Nothing about the PDF stockpiling 'thousands of them'.

Kanluwen wrote:There's been mention before of 'stockpiles' of boltguns on more sophisticated worlds.

Source? If that's some novel...

Imperial Armour volume 5? I think it was. The Imperial Guard codex has also allowed for Veteran Squads equipped with Bolters before.

Kanluwen wrote:I said government armouries, which might have a few dozen at most. Nothing about the PDF stockpiling 'thousands of them'.

Just going by that FFG book here. If they are "popular" they suggest a certain prevalence, else that sentence would make no sense.

Kanluwen wrote:Imperial Armour volume 5? I think it was. The Imperial Guard codex has also allowed for Veteran Squads equipped with Bolters before.

Alright, I may get back to you on that.