Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Though one Guard regiment to the next can vary widely in its disposition, discipline, equipment and so on, apart from some very, very basic standards. I don't see the Sororitas being terribly different in this manner... there's obviously going to be some "baseline" sins (ie, Consort with the Xeno, Succor given to the Mutant, Acceptance of the Heretic and similar things will all be High Heresy), but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.
Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:
It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
I think that pretty much proves the thrust of my debate right there.
I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.
It is, to an extent. With a combination of the examples provided, it makes perfect sense for the Ecclesiarchy to have a Rogue Trader who is a) already a staunchly faithful person and b) owes them... well, everything.
See the quote at the beginning of this post... again, yes, while that only mentions Sisters moving on to "higher callings", it's not out of the realm of feasibility that one such "higher calling", as determined by the Ecclesiarchy, is as the founder of a Rogue Trader dynasty in service to the Imperial Cult.
The Cardinals in question could even, with the proper honeyed words, convince a Sister that she really does want to leave the Order and become a Rogue Trader, because the Church believes that the Emperor has great plans for her, great things in store for her future if she serves the Church in bringing the Light of Him on Terra to the far-flung blah-blah-blah...
...we all know how Ecclesiarchs work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/13 20:25:21
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
That's more or less how I imagined it. It's not that my fabled Sister Sally WANTED to be a rogue trader, she was just picked by the higher ups as a pawn...a means to get their hands on some significant naval power. And in her adventures captaining a mighty starship, she's always accompanied by some Ecclesiarchal "advisors." Finally, as she sadly leaves behind no living heirs, her ship and warrant of trade will be willed to her good friend Sister Jemima. And the cycle repeats ad nauseum.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).
Aye, this is one of these things that get rarely touched upon - SoB fluff is few and far between already, and for such details you really have to dig deep. I think they only get mentioned in the 1E rulebook's background section, in the 2E Codex Imperialis, and in a later WD (as well as various novels or computer games, though these sources are of course disputable, given that they are not studio canon).
I really hope that the upcoming Codices - either the WD one or the real book (hoping that the rumours are true) - will include at least a few lines about this aspect of the Sisterhood. It's bad when so many relatively important details of their existence are only found in sources that are so old that their validity may be called in doubt.
That the IG has to rely on the Navy for such things is a result of the split that occurred after the Horus Heresy - just like the Space Marines, the Inquisition or the Mechanicus, the Adepta Sororitas are an organization for themselves. There's the Decree Passive, but not knowing what GW intends for the Sisters' future, it can be interpreted in more than one way. I think the concept of lightly armed SoB transports came up because they wanted to bring the fleets mentioned in earlier fluff "in line" with the limitations that were introduced later on rather than outright retconning anything?
On the other hand, the thought of a warship where all gunners and/or officers are women but the deckhands are men just so the Ecclesiarchy can say they're following the law is somewhat amusing.
Didn't the "Hammer of Thor" receive a WD article? I don't have that particular issue, but I suppose it would say something about the topic. :/
Psienesis wrote:Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:
Yes, higher office - within the Imperium. They don't just go, they continue to serve - and I'm pretty sure that such a transfer has to be approved by the Abbess/Prioress (who may grant or reject it depending on what the Sororitas gain from this - political power games are not unknown to the Sisters, especially in the higher ranks).
Psienesis wrote:[...] but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.
If you mean the degree of punishment: maybe. But if you mean if it should be punished at all, I'd have to disagree. That's not how it's written, and such differences would create tension with Sisters transferring to and from other locations. Sororitas convents are extremely isolated (so much so that only the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior are even allowed to venture beyond its walls), so they are not really in a position to adopt local culture. It's part of the rift between the Sisterhood and the people they protect.
The Order of the Sacred Rose added a dozen Repressors to their armoury they were gifted from the local Arbites for helping put down a riot on Avignor - this breach of the rules created so much internal debate that the matter was brought before the Holy Synod of Terra itself, where the Prioress ruled that rather than taking the Repressors away from the Sacred Rose again, every Order should be able to get them.
Just to show how serious they take their one great book. I don't think it's impossible that each Order adds one or two lines or that a Canoness may interpret a wording differently, but the uniformity and networking between the convents would keep obvious divergence to a minimum.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/07/13 21:42:20
Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all. A Sister leaves the Order and becomes... whatever. An Adept on an Administratum file-world, overseeing the books of planetary tithes for a sector. A Medicalos in a private, up-Hive cosmetic surgery/rejuvenat clinic on some minor Hive World in the Segmentum Solar. An Inquisitor (well, Interrogator first... it's impossible for an outsider to know all the ins and outs of the =I= without training under someone). Planetary governor of some newly-founded colony on what may become, centuries hence, a Shrine World. A housewife on Planet Iowa. A Rogue Trader. A... uh... whatever passes for a pop-star in the Imperium.
There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection. Mayhaps she's undergone the Rites of Setesh and is a really, really poor-man's version of a Dreadnought (gods below, would I pray for death's merciful release with such a fate...). At this point, you now have a Sister that is, for all intents and purposes, unsuitable for the mission profiles that the Sisterhood takes on. Unable to fight, due to crippling injury (and the possibility that she no longer fits into her power armor because her frame is suspended in some metal monstrosity), unable to provide medical care as a Hospitaler because her augmetic limbs lack the dexterity required, and unable to serve the Dialogous because her new eyes only see in the infra-red and ultra-violet spectrums, she's never going to be chosen to be an ambassador or live-in tutor for a family associated to the Ordo Famulous because, let's face it, full-conversion cyborgs in the Imperium are freaking scary.
I'm certainly not suggesting one is going to drop out of the Girls' School and run off to Necromunda to become an obscura dealer! One *might* go to work with the Arbites, I suppose, in one of several roles I can see a Sister's knowledge and experiences being particularly well-suited.
Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.
Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on.
It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice. The Sister in question, then, becomes something of a martyr (quite possibly literally) for divergent views within the Ecclesiarchy (which are well-documented within the 40K fluff). Far better to let such a one go off and do her own thing and not make a big fuss over it, since she's "obviously not cut out for the life of a Sister of Battle", or whatever the line will be they tell themselves.
Related, again, to this point, is that, when dealing with people like this, unless you completely mind-wipe them, such feelings could be considered a "chink in the armor". Regardless of the penances assigned or punishments inflicted, it may be that the individual remains convinced that they're right, the Sisterhood is wrong, and they really, really want to live a normal human life in the Imperium. Keeping such a person around, (for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence... again, such a thing is akin to declaring that portion of the Creed to be an offense) is both bad for morale and, also, tactically unsound. These are the sorts of people that daemons of one stripe or another will be drawn to, because the seed of doubt has already been planted.
Heck, were I a Lord of Change or even Tzeentch itself, I would find such a individual and send one of my legion in the form of some powerfully-built, beautiful winged man in gleaming golden power armor with a leonine mane of blond hair (like... Fabio, in power armor) to bring "the true word of the Emperor" and play upon those doubts. Feed that resentment and anger until it starts another Schism. Sure, it's probable that it won't get to that point but... then again, as Tzeentch, I can all but ensure that it would. I am the Architect of Fate, after all.
Sheesh, could you imagine someone ordered to become a Sister Repentia being in thrall to Tzeentch through one of its tricksy, looks-like-a-divine-angel daemons? Things could go very, very badly for the Sisterhood in such a situation, and not just on that battlefield. All it would take, really, is for fighting to break out amongst the Sisters in view of other Imperial forces (like the IG in that theatre of war) or to attack said Imperial forces while screaming at them to repent, decrying them as heretics and traitors, and so forth and so on, to do unimaginable damage to the morale of the Imperial forces so gathered... not to mention call into question the entire organization in the eyes of many.
As a self-defense mechanism, it only makes sense for the Sisterhood to have an "out" for members who just aren't getting on well in the ranks. Of course, the "out" might be to guide them into service in other Imperial organizations, rather than just cutting them loose entirely... but, even then, being placed in a position of some authority within the Administratum or even within the Inquisition, if not as an Inquisitor, affords the opportunity for a fairly normal life. Sure, the =I= is pretty byzantine and every member of it is possessed with a great degree of paranoia (it's only healthy, after all)... but not everyone in it is an Inquisitor. There's librarians (the non-psyker kind), file clerks, wargear-maintainers, report collators, security forces, drill instructors, heck, instructors of all sorts of stuff the =I= gets up to... coffee-getters, floor-polishers, servo-skull-buffers and a million other tasks... but these people still have social lives and families.
Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote:Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all.
That's not what I meant. A Sister leaving the Adepta Sororitas could only ever go serve in another Imperial organization such as the Inquisition or maybe the Adeptus Terra mentioned in the text. This way, she would continue to serve the Emperor whilst simultaneously also increasing the connections and political pull of the Sisterhood, whose leaders would surely have to approve of any such an exceptional event.
Quitting the Sororitas to open a shop and make money (?!) or even start a family ... that'd be an utterly alien thought to the Sisters - they'd leave their purpose, their family, their faith behind. Apart from the immense resources invested into her training and upbringing, I don't see any reason why a Sister would literally throw her entire life away to commit such a treasonous act, when she doesn't even know what the "world outside" looks like. The few glimpses of daily life the Sororitas catch up whilst on a mission are filled with misery and pointlessness, only strenghtening the conviction that they "have it better" than the common girl on the streets, whose only girl is to survive another day, like some animal. Not every human in the Imperium lives like that, but the Sisters don't really deploy on vacation beaches to chat with the middle classes. Rather, they accompany impoverished pilgrims, put down mutant uprisings, burn heretical cities, witness the corruption and egoism of the nobility, and tend to malnourished sick workers in the mines. Convent life isn't so bad when you follow this perspective.
Psienesis wrote:There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection.
Cybernetic Resurrection? Apart from the Rite of Setesh being an invention by the RPG* (and one done by the Mechanicus, with which the Sororitas are not really on best terms), the very thought of subjecting a loyal Sister's broken body to such a dire fate is outright heretical. A Sister's greatest hope is martyrdom in the pursuit of a holy cause, as this would ensure her place at the Emperor's side. I really do not think the Sororitas would permit anyone to interfere with such calling. Dead is dead.
And if a Sister is merely crippled beyond the Hospitallers' abilities to mend - which should really not happen all that often (what kind of injury would that be?) - the Sisterhood would still have a place for her. Even if all she can do is watching the novices not slipping up during copy sessions in the scriptorium. Though I guess that someone with valued wisdom and experience would rather be called upon as a tutor, perhaps joining one of the many Scholas to train the next generation of Sororitas.
(*: Ironically, whilst the RPG does deviate a bit from GW canon in a few important areas when it comes to the Adepta Sororitas, even this licensed product outright states that you could leave ... but only as long as you've not yet begun the novitiate. IH p42)
Psienesis wrote:Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.
Why is that inevitable? That's just like saying there absolutely have to be a bunch of rebels in every Marine Chapter. And given the array of punishment, the very culture of raising pain to the position of a virtue, I'm fairly sure that anyone who could get out would do so in the very first days. In the end, a girl joining the Sororitas has sworn a vow, and breaking vows in the Imperium is usually considered unhealthy.
Psienesis wrote:Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on. It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice.
From the Codex:
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.
Psienesis wrote:for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence
The conviction that the Sororitas and thus, by extension, the Church is "wrong" IS heresy. Full stop.
Psienesis wrote:Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.
Ah, but you do retcon things. By a great degree. This level of freedom simply takes away from the core concept of the Sisterhood: of surrendering oneself to the holy cause, of becoming an indoctrinated zealot, of religion being able to brainwash people and turn them into blind slaves of the Imperium's vast machinery.
I do understand the lure of changing aspects of the setting under the conviction that they would "make for a better story" (obviously subject to personal preferences!) - novel authors have done that, too. But in the end, it's not really that different from female Marines or whatever. When virtually every piece of studio material paints the image of "Sista 4 life" and there is not a single example in the fluff of what you claim would be perfectly okay, you just won't be able to convince me. I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law. In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind. These two reasons are why I find it difficult to credit such an exemption, even for such minor vessels.
I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.
Lynata has summed up the argument very well, better than I could at any rate. I agree with the notion that the Ecclesiarchy may have a vested interest in having a group of 'private citizens' which are actually all ex-Sisters, operating as directed. But I simply don't see Sisters being allowed to leave, or even transfer, on their own violition.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Wasn't the Decree Passive not dealing solely with the "men-under-arms" part? I don't recall any wording regarding the fleets at all - only that Thor had disbanded them as well as the Frateris Templar as part of the reformation, but not that this was part of the actual resolution. As far as I know, the disbanding happened before the Decree Passive was even issued. Basically, that the law was not meant for dealing with the "now" but rather with the future, in that it was supposed to prevent the Ecclesiarchy from becoming dangerous again.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law.
Mhm. While the Decree is a more recent law, I think the very existence of the Orders Militant is a much more obvious breach than the few exceptions sort-of violating the wedge between Guard and Navy (i.e. certain regiments being allowed to have their own dropships).
Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind.
Indeed - however, this is one of the things that I think were the reason behind the Convocation of Nephilim. The Ordo Hereticus growing sceptical of the Ecclesiarchy's military might, but then reaching a consensus by claiming their right to use them as their Chamber Militant, as well as privileged access to the many other services of the Sororitas (medical skills, social connections, research, etc).
I see your points, but the above thoughts and a never truly retconned existence of SoB fleets in the canon make me hold on to what I've read, for the moment. And despite licensed products not being hard canon, I find the usage of SoB ships and aircraft in those 3rd party products I've seen so far rather fitting for the greater picture. Hears hoping that the ambiguity will be resolved with future GW material!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/14 14:54:31
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.
We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be. It's, basically, a pretty exclusive military boarding school for children of both genders... and kids go about being kids while receiving the best education the Imperium can provide.
They have gender-divided dormitories, of course, but the image given is that some/many classes are shared between the two. After all, the Schola Progenium also gives rise to Stormtroopers and Commissars, as well as high-ranking Adepts, Clerics and other functionaries.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote:We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be.
Novels aren't canon. So sayeth Gav Thorpe, George Mann and Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Though I'm sure more statements can be found somewhere.
Only stuff that comes directly from the studio is actually official. Which is why so many licensed products contradict each other.
Codex material doesn't suddenly get invalidated just because some writer comes along and either doesn't read up on the material he's working with or simply thinks his idea is superior to what GW came up with. Such as Space Marines with multilasers, backflipping Terminators or Sisters of Battle who have apparently nothing better to do than getting drunk and playing games of luck and getting laid, regardless of what 20 years of canon say about them.
And if you insist that novels are canon I can show you one where the Ecclesiarchy has battlecruisers.
'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.
So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/14 20:51:30
So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?
No...
What it does, however, is prevent the Ecclesiarchy from having possession of a fleet of servitor-piloted vessels, or piloted entirely by women, or Rogue Trader armadas under direct, exclusive contract, or having a roaming fleet of Ecclesiarchy-bought battle-cruisers from where Vandire Mark II floats around, preaching his heresy.
It also means that, if the Ecclesiarch goes about violating the Decree by raising an army, it's not done under the cover of a fleet of ships, loyal to the Ecclesiarchy, flying around the galaxy picking up people from out-system worlds, frontier worlds, and so forth... then depositing them on some distant, overlooked Shrine World that's been converted into a training area/staging ground now defended by however large a fleet they've managed to build (the Ecclesiarchy is rich... that could be a whole lotta ships!).
Thus, it confines the Ecclesiarchy to those worlds it's already on, and limits the worlds they can easily expand to quickly, since they're required to use Naval ships under contract, who have the means to inform other authorities, "Hey, uh, Inquisitor? These preachers here want a ride to Fortress Planet Lostinspace... and they have 50,000 guys with guns with them. Uh, should we give them a ride?". The Ecclesiarchy is obviously not going to attempt to violate the Decree on planets they know are being watched, it's too easily stopped at early stages.
Vandire Mark 2 might rise up on Planet Uarehere, but without a fleet of mention to defend it... he's not much of a threat. At worst, they glass the place from orbit and roll on.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I've just read up on some details in the Codices, and the 2E 'dex actually does go into some more detail:
"Sebastian Thor was ordered to disband the Frateris Templar of Vandire and any armies and fleets assembled by other members of the Ministorum while away from Terra. This was duly done, but for one exception. Seeing that some military force would be needed, and not wishing the Ecclesiarchy to be totally subservient to the will of the Adeptus Terra and the Imperial Guard, Sebastian Thor kept the one army he was allowed under the Decree Passive."
I've misremembered a couple bits in earlier posts, but there are some important things to note in that section:
it specifically omits Ministorum fleets -at- Terra (where the SoB were based)
it notes that the Sisters were an exception to this (meaning that they would be allowed to keep any ships they would have already had)
it is actually -intended- that the SoB retain a degree of independence from other Imperial organizations, such as the Navy
It is also worth noting that this is the very same edition that still made mention of Sororitas fleets in GW canon (-> Codex Imperialis).
Furthermore, there's only 30.000 SoB - a new Vandire could never stage a coup with such an army. The Sisters Militant are a mix between internal police and external elite strike team. For any larger campaign they still require support from a real army with more bodies to spare (read, the IG), both for battles as well as an occupation force.
The Frateris Militia and the various Ecclesiarchal Cardinals' local support is much more of a problem - see the Siege of Vraks. Making Sororitas operations depend on the goodwill of the people they are supposed to police doesn't sound like a smart move, and Thor knew this.
I'm inclined to agree that any SoB fleet - should it truly exist - should not outclass the Navy, though, hence why I'm leaning to the "lightly armed rapid deployment transports". Really hoping the upcoming Codices will deal with this a little; I just love the idea of deepstriking Seraphim jumping out of a Sisterhood Valkyrie.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/07/14 22:48:27
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Lynata wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.
Wasn't the Decree Passive not dealing solely with the "men-under-arms" part? I don't recall any wording regarding the fleets at all - only that Thor had disbanded them as well as the Frateris Templar as part of the reformation, but not that this was part of the actual resolution. As far as I know, the disbanding happened before the Decree Passive was even issued. Basically, that the law was not meant for dealing with the "now" but rather with the future, in that it was supposed to prevent the Ecclesiarchy from becoming dangerous again.
I don't have the current Witch Hunter Codex on me (sold it to get Vostroyans! ) but I was sure that the Ecclessiarchy was forbidden from having their own fleet in the wake of the Vandire Heresy.
Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.
Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law.
Mhm. While the Decree is a more recent law, I think the very existence of the Orders Militant is a much more obvious breach than the few exceptions sort-of violating the wedge between Guard and Navy (i.e. certain regiments being allowed to have their own dropships).
Obviously it's a breach of the Decree Passive, that the Orders Militant actually exist at all is only due to a very selective interpretation of the Decree Passive.
Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind.
Indeed - however, this is one of the things that I think were the reason behind the Convocation of Nephilim. The Ordo Hereticus growing sceptical of the Ecclesiarchy's military might, but then reaching a consensus by claiming their right to use them as their Chamber Militant, as well as privileged access to the many other services of the Sororitas (medical skills, social connections, research, etc).
Indeed, it stopped the Sisters from being just another tool of the Ecclessiarchy and actually (in a sense) made their own troops their custodians. I think, if an High-ranking Ecclesiarchy official and a Hereticus Inquisitor clash the sisters are bound to follow the Inquisitor. It's a neat counter-action to the twisting of the Decree Passive. While the Ecclessiarch command warriors that are 100% loyal to the Emperor (and can therefore be trusted in all outside conflicts, and most internal ones) they aren't blindly loyal to the Ecclessiarchy itself, which forces the Ecclessiarchy to tread carefully. Acting too forward could mean bringing their own troops weapons down against them.
I see your points, but the above thoughts and a never truly retconned existence of SoB fleets in the canon make me hold on to what I've read, for the moment. And despite licensed products not being hard canon, I find the usage of SoB ships and aircraft in those 3rd party products I've seen so far rather fitting for the greater picture. Hears hoping that the ambiguity will be resolved with future GW material!
You're right, it is ambiguous, but how I would generally interpret the fluff would mean the sisters don't have any sort of naval capabilities. That said, the moment GW thinks a Sisters Flyer would sell, that'll change.
Lynata wrote:I've just read up on some details in the Codices, and the 2E 'dex actually does go into some more detail:
"Sebastian Thor was ordered to disband the Frateris Templar of Vandire and any armies and fleets assembled by other members of the Ministorum while away from Terra. This was duly done, but for one exception. Seeing that some military force would be needed, and not wishing the Ecclesiarchy to be totally subservient to the will of the Adeptus Terra and the Imperial Guard, Sebastian Thor kept the one army he was allowed under the Decree Passive."
I've misremembered a couple bits in earlier posts, but there are some important things to note in that section:
This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
it specifically omits Ministorum fleets -at- Terra (where the SoB were based)
it notes that the Sisters were an exception to this (meaning that they would be allowed to keep any ships they would have already had)
it is actually -intended- that the SoB retain a degree of independence from other Imperial organizations, such as the Navy
It is also worth noting that this is the very same edition that still made mention of Sororitas fleets in GW canon (-> Codex Imperialis).
Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
Furthermore, there's only 30.000 SoB - a new Vandire could never stage a coup with such an army. The Sisters Militant are a mix between internal police and external elite strike team. For any larger campaign they still require support from a real army with more bodies to spare (read, the IG), both for battles as well as an occupation force.
The Frateris Militia and the various Ecclesiarchal Cardinals' local support is much more of a problem - see the Siege of Vraks. Making Sororitas operations depend on the goodwill of the people they are supposed to police doesn't sound like a smart move, and Thor knew this.
I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates.
I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
I'm inclined to agree that any SoB fleet - should it truly exist - should not outclass the Navy, though, hence why I'm leaning to the "lightly armed rapid deployment transports". Really hoping the upcoming Codices will deal with this a little; I just love the idea of deepstriking Seraphim jumping out of a Sisterhood Valkyrie.
Oh me too, and with the way Flyers seem to be becoming much more popular it'll probably happen. In current fluff though I don't see sistes having any naval space assests at all. Like the Imperial Guard, they seem to be completely dependant (if much more influental) on the Imperial Navy for that sort of thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/15 12:28:02
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
All true. But the same could apply to the word "fleets".
Emperors Faithful wrote:This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
I agree about the 2E 'dex being cooler (it also had more fluff), but the "no men under arms" part was in there, too. No retcon on that part.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
BL novels aren't canon, they are - as per the own words of George Mann, GW's Head of Publishing, the respective "author's interpretation". This is in line with what Gav Thorpe said (GW occasionally adopting BL stuff they like but simply not caring about the rest). Aaron Dembski-Bowden has even written a blog article about that subject here.
Not that Faith & Fire would throw up any problems in that regard, though. Occasionally taking on the services of the Navy does not exclude the existence of a dedicated SoB fleet - it would simply hint at those ships not being as numerous that they could dispatch one just to transport 4 (!) SoB to do what was essentially a favour for the local Bishop.
And I happen to like Faith & Fire. Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (), but I thought it was pretty well done and in line with the general "look and feel" of the setting. I also liked some of the new ideas the author has introduced, such as the hidden martyr blade in the chaplet ecclesiasticus.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates. I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
The 2E 'dex contained a rather detailed list:
When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas, these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.
Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed.
Tl;dr: 18.000-24.000 SoB in the 6 Orders Maioris, 12.000-6.000 in the Minor Orders, with the official headquarters being Ophelia VII and Terra but lots of smaller semi-temporary convents scattered throughout the galaxy.
I suppose it is feasible - apart from the sheer price of "the best equipment the Mechanicus can produce" (WD) even for the Ecclesiarchy (which doesn't exactly get a discount with the AdMech ) the requirements of becoming a SoB are incredibly high (keeping in mind that the vast majority of Schola Progenium orphans ends up in the Administratum, with still others joining the Assassinorum, the Navy, the Inquisition, the clergy, ...), this would also be the perfect explanation of why the Sisters of Battle don't show up very often in the fluff.
Also keep in mind that canon notes that the Order of the Martyred Lady was "barely able to field three companies of Battle Sisters" after the Third War of Armageddon - which makes no sense unless they were really small to begin with.
The size of a Sororitas Order being only between a few hundred and a few thousand was also recently "renewed" in the small fluff blurb they got in the 5E Rulebook.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/07/15 13:26:52
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Lynata wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Two reasons why men-under-arms was probably used in lieu of army could be:
1) The Imperial Language is different from English, and High Gothic which the Decree would almost certainly be written in) could be way more complex or removed from our idea of sensible language than we could know.
2) Then there would 'interpretations' of the word army. Does the Cardinal's 'extended bodyguard' slip through the definition? Technically, Frateris Militia go against the meaning of the Decree Passive, and any attempt to keep a 'standing Frateris Militia' would be a serious breach of the Decree.
All true. But the same could apply to the word "fleets".
Now, I was sure fleets were adressed seperately. But, like I said, I don't have the WH codex on me to prove you for the fluff-trickster and cnon-scoundrel you are! /jks
Emperors Faithful wrote:This has been retconned to some degree by the more recent dex, which makes it pretty clear that the continued existence of the Sisters Militant was only due to twisting the word 'men-under-arms', clearly going against the spirit of the Decree but not the literal word (The 2nd Codex was much cooler in terms of fluff though).
I agree about the 2E 'dex being cooler (it also had more fluff), but the "no men under arms" part was in there, too. No retcon on that part.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Further pieces of GW canon would lead me to believe that Sororitas Fleets were disbanded, or at least disarmed and redistibuted. Certainly no mention of what they consist of is actually made. And the only BL source that I've read about Sisters (Faith and Fire) had the Celestians travelling aboard a ship under the purview of the Ecclessiarchy, but not (in total legality) actually in possession of it. It ws confusing, and in general a poor read, and didn't really explain much at all.
BL novels aren't canon, they are - as per the own words of George Mann, GW's Head of Publishing, the respective "author's interpretation". This is in line with what Gav Thorpe said (GW occasionally adopting BL stuff they like but simply not caring about the rest). Aaron Dembski-Bowden has even written a blog article about that subject here.
Not that Faith & Fire would throw up any problems in that regard, though. Occasionally taking on the services of the Navy does not exclude the existence of a dedicated SoB fleet - it would simply hint at those ships not being as numerous that they could dispatch one just to transport 4 (!) SoB to do what was essentially a favour for the local Bishop.
I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
And I happen to like Faith & Fire. Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (), but I thought it was pretty well done and in line with the general "look and feel" of the setting. I also liked some of the new ideas the author has introduced, such as the hidden martyr blade in the chaplet ecclesiasticus.
I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't recall any actual number of SoB in fluff, even in rough estimates. I'd certainly be surprised if it was only 30.000 though, as they appeared more common than Space Marines at least.
The 2E 'dex contained a rather detailed list:
When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarchy there were roughly 4,000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas, these warriors were split between the Convents of Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of’ the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10,000 fighters and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart and the Argent Shroud.
Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accommodate almost 15,000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now number between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim.These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits availble and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed.
Tl;dr: 18.000-24.000 SoB in the 6 Orders Maioris, 12.000-6.000 in the Minor Orders, with the official headquarters being Ophelia VII and Terra but lots of smaller semi-temporary convents scattered throughout the galaxy.
I suppose it is feasible - apart from the sheer price of "the best equipment the Mechanicus can produce" (WD) even for the Ecclesiarchy (which doesn't exactly get a discount with the AdMech ) the requirements of becoming a SoB are incredibly high (keeping in mind that the vast majority of Schola Progenium orphans ends up in the Administratum, with still others joining the Assassinorum, the Navy, the Inquisition, the clergy, ...), this would also be the perfect explanation of why the Sisters of Battle don't show up very often in the fluff.
Also keep in mind that canon notes that the Order of the Martyred Lady was "barely able to field three companies of Battle Sisters" after the Third War of Armageddon - which makes no sense unless they were really small to begin with.
The size of a Sororitas Order being only between a few hundred and a few thousand was also recently "renewed" in the small fluff blurb they got in the 5E Rulebook.
Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased. Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
Depends on how much you value older fluff. I can cite things from both 1E and 2E, but lack anything solid from later eras. :(
The Sisterhood is divided into two Convents; the Convent Prioris based within the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra and the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia IV in the Segmentum Tempestus. Each Convent has its own fleets and conducts its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters. The head of each Convent is known as the Prioress, and within each Convent are a number of different Orders, each headed by a Cannoness. She is assisted by Celestian Superiors and Sister Superiors.
+
Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium. The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However, the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces. The Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all in an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport. However, the Navy is unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels, as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
The latter seems to be a problem with most BL novels, I guess - though I actually think this could happen in GW canon as well (they've done crazier stuff!). But I agree about the purge, that was my favorite bit as well - perfect representation of the Sisters' zeal. And creeeepy @ Repentia.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased.
The numbers are for the current status of the SoB, and note that the minor Orders are included in the 30k (as the major ones alone can't reach that high even if you add up their peak numbers). In short, it seems as if the two Convents are intended to be able to house the entirety of the Sisters Militant at all times, even though they rarely (if ever) get together these days. That said, I suppose each Order simply has its own facilities in there.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Can't agree with that. The 2E 'dex gave us explicit numbers, and their duties have not changed since then (sans occasional inquisitional assistance, though I would suppose this would have already happened back then, just not as part of a formal alliance). Sisters are not everywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, they are only at major sites - which leaves a lot open to interpretation, as that could be anything up to meaning only a single squad guarding the doors of a single cathedral in an entire sector (the head diocese).
The very absence of Sisters in the fluff (apart from Armageddon and the Pyrus Reach, where do they even show up?), likely primarily a result of GW's neglect of this faction, can be perfectly explained using these numbers. Also note that we have yet to see any minor Order - it's always one of the Big Six, and even though they are bigger it's still only a few thousand, tops, for the entire galaxy. And that's recent 5E fluff.
I actually like it. Makes them appear far more elite than if there were billions of them, IG-style.
Though Storm Troopers are even more rare with their 20.000 (IG Codex).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/15 15:35:43
Lynata- where did you find that bit in italics regarding Sisterhood troop ships?
In terms of Battlefleet Gothic, which ships would be appropriate for these very fast, yet offensively weak ships?
I'm not sure if you consider it fluff, one of the Orders Militant Minoris was mentioned in Imperial Armor II, 'Order of the Blue Robe'- one of the pictured Exorcists is painted with their color scheme.
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Lynata wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I agree that relying on the navy doesn't necessarily exclude them from having a fleet themselves but, Post-Vandire Heresy, I can't recall any mention of Sororitas Fleets. If you can bring one up, I'll happily concede the argument to you.
Depends on how much you value older fluff. I can cite things from both 1E and 2E, but lack anything solid from later eras. :(
The Sisterhood is divided into two Convents; the Convent Prioris based within the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra and the Convent Sanctorum on Ophelia IV in the Segmentum Tempestus. Each Convent has its own fleets and conducts its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters. The head of each Convent is known as the Prioress, and within each Convent are a number of different Orders, each headed by a Cannoness. She is assisted by Celestian Superiors and Sister Superiors.
+
Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium. The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However, the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces. The Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all in an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport. However, the Navy is unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels, as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.
Okay then, since no recent fluff explicitly retcons this you've convinced me that sisters do indeed have ships of their own (even if they are lightly or even un-armed).
Emperors Faithful wrote:I only read it as it was the only real novel on Sisters. My favourite bit would be the purge of the rebel city, but honestly I thought the rest was sub-standard even for BL works.
Spoiler:
I mean, come on, the climax? By that point I was so 'WTF?' I just had to go with it.
The latter seems to be a problem with most BL novels, I guess - though I actually think this could happen in GW canon as well (they've done crazier stuff!). But I agree about the purge, that was my favorite bit as well - perfect representation of the Sisters' zeal. And creeeepy @ Repentia.
Really, it was fine up until:
They were captured in the mountain/fortress/base/thingy, from there on a sharp decline in quality. I completely understand BL books where the fate of a world, a system or even a sector hangs in the balance, but the entire Imperium?[/spoiler]
Emperors Faithful wrote:Ah, but there are a lot more Minor Orders, and over time I can only expect the number to have increased.
The numbers are for the current status of the SoB, and note that the minor Orders are included in the 30k (as the major ones alone can't reach that high even if you add up their peak numbers). In short, it seems as if the two Convents are intended to be able to house the entirety of the Sisters Militant at all times, even though they rarely (if ever) get together these days. That said, I suppose each Order simply has its own facilities in there.
I thought the numbers were based two-and-a-half millenia after the Vandire Heresy (which leaves another two millenia at least for further expansion.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Sisters tend to be represented more than Space Marines in the fluff (unless the novel actually has Space Marines as the protaganists). Everywhere the Ecclessiarchy is, which is pretty much the entirety of the Imperium, the Orders Militant are likely to have some sort of presence. Even if that number was just a dozen sisters, on average, for every couple of planets they'd quickly outnumber Space Marines.
Can't agree with that. The 2E 'dex gave us explicit numbers, and their duties have not changed since then (sans occasional inquisitional assistance, though I would suppose this would have already happened back then, just not as part of a formal alliance). Sisters are not everywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, they are only at major sites - which leaves a lot open to interpretation, as that could be anything up to meaning only a single squad guarding the doors of a single cathedral in an entire sector (the head diocese).
Enforcer, which I'll admit focussed more on Arbites, had a Sister convent on a Hive World that was able to police the populace (to the extent that in one city Arbites and SoB numbers were very similar). Then again, while I would be surprised that a Hive City wouldn't have some sort of Sister presence, apart from Shrine and Hive worlds any Ordos Militant presence will be minimal.
The very absence of Sisters in the fluff (apart from Armageddon and the Pyrus Reach, where do they even show up?), likely primarily a result of GW's neglect of this faction, can be perfectly explained using these numbers. Also note that we have yet to see any minor Order - it's always one of the Big Six, and even though they are bigger it's still only a few thousand, tops, for the entire galaxy. And that's recent 5E fluff.
Enforcer has a minor Order, actually several, that come up. But fair enough, I suppose aren't as widespread as I thought they were.
I actually like it. Makes them appear far more elite than if there were billions of them, IG-style.
Though Storm Troopers are even more rare with their 20.000 (IG Codex).
Really? Where is that in the IG codex? I've read through the Stromtrooper entry and either it's not there or I've overlooked it.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Dr Mathias wrote:Lynata- where did you find that bit in italics regarding Sisterhood troop ships?
The first one is from the Codex Imperialis, the second bit ... uhh, I think that was an old WD article, but I can't give you an issue number. :I
I've got most of my fluff saved in a huge textfile for easy access and quote-ability - it circulated in the ancient SoB yahoo! group, and over the years I was able to track down the actual sources for the majority of what was cited there, but this one is one of the two snippets whose source remains elusive. I'm just not discarding it because (aside from it being written in "studio style" and fitting neatly into what else we know) said file has proven to be very reliable, even in other areas where many fans would believe otherwise (such as GW having specified the Schola Progenium as being strictly gender-divided, as opposed to what that one novel wants to make you believe).
I also just remembered that the SoB actually have their own "Dominica-pattern" drop-pods (mentioned in Citadel Journal in an article written by Andy Hoare).
Dr Mathias wrote:In terms of Battlefleet Gothic, which ships would be appropriate for these very fast, yet offensively weak ships?
Phew, tricky one. Taking a look at the BFG lists, the "Imperial Transport" or the "Armed Freighter" sound like a good start. They appear slow-moving, but from my understanding the number is just sublight speed and not for warp travel... No idea about those corvettes, though. Perhaps taking an Escort hull such as the Cobra, then replacing its weapons with that of a Transport and reducing the point cost?
I've read that Jes Goodwyn supposedly designed some Ecclesiarchy ships and you can see pictures in his "Gothic and Eldritch" sketchbook, but I've not been able to get a glimpse of them myself yet. If anyone around here has that out-of-print book I'd greatly appreciate a scan of that page!
Dr Mathias wrote:I'm not sure if you consider it fluff, one of the Orders Militant Minoris was mentioned in Imperial Armor II, 'Order of the Blue Robe'- one of the pictured Exorcists is painted with their color scheme.
Huh, I did not know that! Thanks for the hint - though weren't all Orders Militant supposed to only use the colours black, white and red in variations as per the Codex? :S
Emperors Faithful wrote:but the entire Imperium?
Well, even though that was the villain's plan, I don't think he'd actually have succeeded. The characters merely act this way because they possess limited knowledge - the villain is a madman and the Sisters are zealots, plus neither party knows about how tight security in the Sol system really is. Thus they all see it as a greater crisis than it truly is. I thought it was okay - and I could have truly believed that the Emperor would have built such machines ... >_>
But yeah, of course it remains a matter of preferences. Novels aren't canon unless GW specifically say so - though I maintain that some of them can be cool sources of inspiration.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I thought the numbers were based two-and-a-half millenia after the Vandire Heresy (which leaves another two millenia at least for further expansion.
Yes and no - the quote actually points out that the numbers have declined slightly in recent years, so it's even fewer right now.
On that note, did anyone notice that the 5E 'dex said there's only three major Orders left? I wonder if that was a mistake or if they really had to "merge" some (see Martyted Lady after Armageddon), or if half the Orders were reduced to being minor Orders. One of the questions that I'm waiting for to get answered in the WD 'dex!
Emperors Faithful wrote:Enforcer, which I'll admit focussed more on Arbites, had a Sister convent on a Hive World that was able to police the populace (to the extent that in one city Arbites and SoB numbers were very similar). Then again, while I would be surprised that a Hive City wouldn't have some sort of Sister presence, apart from Shrine and Hive worlds any Ordos Militant presence will be minimal.
Plus it's a novel - depending on the author they take a lot of liberties with the fluff at times (*cough*multilasers*cough*).
I've heard it does have a cool story, though, and the omnibus is on my "to-get" list. Arbites are cool, too.
Or was it a minor Order, perchance? Or some special reason to have a semi-permant garrison of the Sisters Militant there? From what I've read in the 2E 'dex they do move around a lot, with essentially only the two "big" convents at Terra and Ophelia VII being meant to stand forever.
Anyways, some GW books actually feature Force Composition charts for various warzones, and in order to get some "food" for this discussion (actually I was hunting for the source of the transports, see above) I stumbled over a couple of them. Here's an example from the Third War of Armageddon (from its own Codex):
Space Marines = 24 Chapters with 150 Companies altogether
Sisters of Battle = 2 Orders with 10 Companies altogether
Or here, from the "Battle for Bladen" during the Gothic War in 143.M41 (taken from the Cityfight Codex):
"The Ecclesiarchy was strong on Bladen and Massena was the site of their greatest cathedral. The Mission of the Emperor Triumphant was the oldest Ecclesiarchy building in the sub-sector, built on the site of an Apothecarion. Said to have been founded during the Great Crusade it was a place where the Emperor himself was believed to have trod.
And yet the only Imperials to defend it were the Cadian 35th and Cardinal Andrallos with his Confessors. No SoB anywhere. Speaks volumes about how "widepsread" they are.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Really? Where is that in the IG codex? I've read through the Stromtrooper entry and either it's not there or I've overlooked it.
Actually, I misremembered - it's only 10.000! The number is from the 2E Imperial Guard Codex - though even the 5E 'dex still talks of only "the Storm Trooper regiment" (note the singular form).
I've pasted the full quote in another thread here.
dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.
Seemed a bit silly.
That's because it is.
Brother Coa wrote:How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?
Note number 1: Saints and Living Saints are two entirely different creatures. Saints only become so after death. Living Saints, obviously, are still alive.
Note number 2: Not all Living Saints are from the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor (posthumously, but still) was considered a Living Saint, due to the way his mere presence calmed the warp storms that plagued the galaxy during Vandire's reign of blood. Saint Sabbat also is not a Sororitas. Most do appear to be female though.
As for what they are? They're embodiments of the Emperor's will. There's nothing inherently psychic about them.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Melissia wrote:
dave_salmon wrote:In the Enforcer book it talks about the troubled daughter of a noble being accepted for sorroritas training to straighten her out.
Seemed a bit silly.
That's because it is.
I've already pointed out that is not how it was. The Sororitas are not a high-end Boarding school that straightens out wayward teens for the priveliged, and Enforcer did not portray it to be that way.
Brother Coa wrote:How do Battle Sister become one of them?
And what are they? Do they represent a portion of Emperor's own energy?
Or are they simply some form of highly trained psychic mutant?
Note number 1: Saints and Living Saints are two entirely different creatures. Saints only become so after death. Living Saints, obviously, are still alive.
Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Upon their death Living Saints will inevitably join the countless ranks of other Saints.
Note number 2: Not all Living Saints are from the Adepta Sororitas. Sebastian Thor (posthumously, but still) was considered a Living Saint,
That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
due to the way his mere presence calmed the warp storms that plagued the galaxy during Vandire's reign of blood. Saint Sabbat also is not a Sororitas. Most do appear to be female though.
Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet. That was put down to it being a sign of the Emperor's manifest will, rather than any action or show of willpower on Thor's behalf.
While the older codex hints at Thor's unerring ability to swing people over to his side and motivate/inspire them, neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one. He certainly didn't have the gobsmacking powers Saint Celestine demonstrated. Like flying.
As for what they are? They're embodiments of the Emperor's will. There's nothing inherently psychic about them.
Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
For Emperor and Imperium!!!! None shall stand against the Crusade of the Righteous!!! Kanluwen wrote: "I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army."
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" Emperor of Mankind:
"The day I have a sit-down with a pansy elf, magic mushroom, or commie frog is the day I put a bolt shell in my head."
in your name it shall be done" My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/2SSSR2
Viersche wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
the Emperor might be the greatest psyker that ever lived, but he doesn't have the specialized training that a Grey Knight has. Also he doesn't have a Grey Knight's unshakable faith in the Emperor.
The Emperor doesn't have a GKs unshakable faith in the Emperor which is....basically himself?
Ronin wrote:
"Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions."
Emperors Faithful wrote:Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Usually, but not always. Saint Sabbat warred for centuries... then died and was resurrected and did it again.
Emperors Faithful wrote:That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
So? Many Saints, living or otherwise, go undeclared because of the vastness of the Imperium and the turmoil of Imperial history. Often the only difference between a Saint and Living Saint is that the Ecclesiarchy only bothers with the paperwork decades or centuries after the Saint died, where the Living Saint impressed enough officials that they dove through the red tape to get it done faster
Emperors Faithful wrote:Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet.
Since when does that matter? Humility is a saintly trait, and one that Sebastian Thor in specific was quite well known for.
Emperors Faithful wrote: neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one
Do you have a point?
The primary reason Sebastian Thor wasn't officially declared a Living Saint at the time is because during his lifetime the Imperial Cult was in complete and utter turmoil. Just because the Ecclesiarchy, in its infinite red tape, does not happen to declare a Living Saint as such in their lifetime doesn't mean that they weren't actual Living Saints. It just means the Ecclesiarchy is like all other Imperial organization-- large, ponderous, and full of bureaucracy.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Melissia wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Though it should be noted that they ussually burn out quite quickly. Another point against Sebastian Thor being a Living Saint.
Usually, but not always. Saint Sabbat warred for centuries... then died and was resurrected and did it again.
I've read Sabbat Matyr, the 'resurrection' isn't quite the same as what you're implying it was.
Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries, by all account the conquering of the Sabbat system spread like wildfire, whereas the re-conquering is going much slower.
Emperors Faithful wrote:That isn't official fact, but it is a popular theory within the Inquisition.
So? Many Saints, living or otherwise, go undeclared because of the vastness of the Imperium and the turmoil of Imperial history. Often the only difference between a Saint and Living Saint is that the Ecclesiarchy only bothers with the paperwork decades or centuries after the Saint died, where the Living Saint impressed enough officials that they dove through the red tape to get it done faster
Yes, I agree. But I also think that a fair few mortals have entered the ranks of Sainthood without needing to be powered directly by the Emperor (if that is indeed how it works).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Thor never claimed, or was attributed, the destruction of Vandire's fleet.
Since when does that matter? Humility is a saintly trait, and one that Sebastian Thor in specific was quite well known for.
Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex. It was convenient, and taken as a sign of the righteousness of the Thorian cause, but nowhere is it hinted at that Thor himself was behind it or had any part in it. In short, you pulled the theory out of thin air.
Emperors Faithful wrote: neither dex explicitly states that he was a Living Saint or claimed to be one
Do you have a point?
The primary reason Sebastian Thor wasn't officially declared a Living Saint at the time is because during his lifetime the Imperial Cult was in complete and utter turmoil. Just because the Ecclesiarchy, in its infinite red tape, does not happen to declare a Living Saint as such in their lifetime doesn't mean that they weren't actual Living Saints. It just means the Ecclesiarchy is like all other Imperial organization-- large, ponderous, and full of bureaucracy.
All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says then make such claims with any sort of authority. It's easy to see that Sebastian Thor may have been a Living Saint, but it's a theory not a fact (any more than the 'Star Child' theory can be considered a fact).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Unless you consider the Emperor's will made manifest to essentially be psychic in itself, rather than some other unidentified energy.
They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/19 14:05:19
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Melissia wrote:They're tested for psychic power and proven not to have it in the course of being declared a Living Saint (if they are touched by the touch of psychic power the best they can hope for is to be sent for sanctioning).
And besides, the psyker gene would likely have been discovered during purity screens in the Schola already.
The source of a Living Saint's power is likely connected to, if not the same, as the one that allows the Sisters to commit Acts of Faith. This may well be something psychic, just that it works different from psyker stuff. Maybe it even is a subconscious connection to the warp, or it is the Emperor using His incredible psychic powers through them (which would not require the psyker gene and is therefore undetectable by Imperial science). It depends on how "magical" one wants to see the setting, for GW does not go into specifics here - though I have come up with a "scientific" theory:
Lynata wrote:Where the power of a Living Saint truly comes from depends on where you think the power behind the Sisters' "normal" Acts of Faith comes from. Either it truly is the Emperor working through one of his chosen servants, or it is the collective power of faith somehow causing an equivalent to psychic phenomena whilst circumventing the normal requirements and restrictions. Like the Orks' Waaagh field.
I thought about the latter a lot, and by keeping in mind that emotion can occasionally have a very strong effect in 40k (-> birth of Slaanesh) as well as religion being a perfect conduit for emotion, we come to the idea that a Living Saint is the faithful crusading masses' combined hate, zeal and dedication which somehow ends up being channeled into a focal point, essentially jumping to and "possessing"; one of the most faithful, thereby investing her with great supernatural powers which are naturally taken to be of divine origin by the holy warriors present.
A Living Saint's end could then occur out of two reasons: Either the frail human form of the Saint simply cannot bear the strange energies coursing through her body and she "burns out" like a magnesium flare, or - a slightly more ironical and grimdark thought - over time the masses of the faithful get used to the Living Saint doing all the hard work for them and the flow of strong emotion slowly dries up, once reaching the critical threshold essentially cutting the link between the Saint and the actual source of her powers, leaving her body a wrecked hulk.
Just theory, mind you. There is no actual canon regarding the exact nature of Faith Powers in 40k - of course everything is attributed as being the Emperor's work, but nobody knows if it's true.
Lynata: C:WH actually explains how Sisters accomplish it. It is, quite literally, a unique martial arts training they practice, which allows them, through prayer and training, to achieve understandings of battle and war and to accomplish feats "miraculous to the unschooled", to give a direct quote.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries
She died after 105 years of crusading.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, I agree. But I also think that a fair few mortals have entered the ranks of Sainthood without needing to be powered directly by the Emperor (if that is indeed how it works).
This is indeed true.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex.
Actually I'm fairly certain it's believed that, as a Living Saint, they were calmed by the Emperor's blessings upon him rather than by his own power.
Emperors Faithful wrote:All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says
The fluff says a lot of things, often inherently contradictory, with many writers ignoring what other writers put down so that they can have their own little interpretation of what they think is good instead. So which version should I go with today?
Emperors Faithful wrote:While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
The Emperor's will made manifest is not considered psychic in the Imperium.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/07/19 14:05:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Melissia wrote:Lynata: C:WH actually explains how Sisters accomplish it. It is, quite literally, a unique martial arts training they practice, which allows them, through prayer and training, to achieve understandings of battle and war and to accomplish feats "miraculous to the unschooled", to give a direct quote.
Even if that was taken at face value (Martial Skills make armour stop power weapons) it does nothing to explain the powers of the Living Saint.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Nor can I recall that Saint Sabbat warred for centuries
She died after 105 years of crusading.
So how long did Celestine or Thor live by way of comparison? I'm sure Thor lived for much longer than a century.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Yes, but alledging that Thor was actually responsible for the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet is completely unsupported by any fluff accounts or passages in the codex.
Actually I'm fairly certain it's believed that, as a Living Saint, they were calmed by the Emperor's blessings upon him rather than by his own power.
Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Emperors Faithful wrote:All I'm asking is that you stick to what the fluff actually says
The fluff says a lot of things, often inherently contradictory, with many writers ignoring what other writers put down so that they can have their own little interpretation of what they think is good instead. So which version should I go with today?
You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Emperors Faithful wrote:While the hosts may not demonstrate psychic ability, how do you then explain their powers? Either it's the Emperor's Will made manifest (and hence inherently psychic, though from a far greater power) or it's someting else that is completely alien.
The Emperor's will made manifest is not considered psychic in the Imperium.
I don't see canon to support that, it's pretty widely acknowledged that the Emperor was themost powerful psyker in existence.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Even if that was taken at face value (Martial Skills make armour stop power weapons) it does nothing to explain the powers of the Living Saint.
Nor should it, that wasn't my point.
Emperors Faithful wrote:So how long did Celestine or Thor live by way of comparison? I'm sure Thor lived for much longer than a century.
I don't know how long Thor lived. I don't even know how old he was when he first began preaching against Vandire. GW's fluff is vague.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Both.
Emperors Faithful wrote:You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Why not? Some interpretations and contradictions are stupid.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't see canon to support that
... because the powers of the Living Saint are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. The powers of miracles are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. Not everything has to be psychic or non-psychic. Some things can exist outside of the dichotomy given the nature of the Warp. For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Melissia wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Are you claiming that he was indeed a Living Saint? Or that many Imperial Citizens believed he was a Living Saint? One is debateable, the other is solidly supported.
Both.
Cool, I certainly think there's evidence to support the theory that Thor was a living Saint, but I can also see him as simply being a (remarkable) mortal man. One doesn't necessarily need to walk with the manifest will of a God inside them to cause upheaval after all.
Emperors Faithful wrote:You could tell it like it is and point out the contradictions (or acknowledge when said contradictions are pointed out to you) rather than pick one piece of fluff (or none) and run with it to the exclusion of all else.
Why not? Some interpretations and contradictions are stupid.
Then you point them out, and deconstruct them to show why they are stupid and should be ignore. This is always prefferable to instantly taking one piece of fluff as gospel.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't see canon to support that
... because the powers of the Living Saint are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. The powers of miracles are not considered psychic, despite being His will made manifest. Not everything has to be psychic or non-psychic.
Er...yes they do. Either someone derives their powers (whether born with or later gifted) from psychic ability or they don't.
Some things can exist outside of the dichotomy given the nature of the Warp. For example, sorcery isn't psychic power.
You mean Thousand Sons Sorcery? Becuase that doesn't get you anywhere with this argument.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
No, I mean sorcery. Why would I talk about whiny *****boy marines?
Sorcery involves pacts, rituals, rites, etc. It can be done by anyone who isn't a Blank. Psychic powers can only be done by psykers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/19 14:54:04
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Order of the Sable Heart
Grave Knights
House Rouen 
Granted, partially that may be due to the lack of alternatives in terms of Sisters novels (
"Pain is temporary, honor is forever" 
in your name it shall be done"