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Why are you arguing at all? We know that only Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Officio Assassinorum and Grey Knights have better equipment that Sisters of Battle.

No Guard Regiment, PDF, Special Forces or whatsoever will ever have better equipment than Sisters, exept armor but that;s another story. Just look at regular Guardsman and regular Sister. And then compare Stormtrooper and Celestian.

Brother Coa wrote:Why are you arguing at all? We know that only Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus, Officio Assassinorum and Grey Knights have better equipment that Sisters of Battle.

We should know so, yes. According to the WH Codex and a WD article, Astartes and Sororitas equipment is on the exact same level.

The RPG just tells a different story. My only hope is that this perception doesn't gain a foothold in the community.

Lynata wrote:The RPG just tells a different story.

No, it doesn't.

Melissia wrote:No, it doesn't.

Didn't you yourself complain about the SoB gear in the RPG, in one of your previous posts?

In the RPG:
The SoB Godwyn-De'az is basically an off-the-mill "civilian" bolter of good quality (-> Reliable) and worse than the PDF Solo. The Astartes version does about 33%(!) more damage.
The SoB armour is light power armour with a reinforced torso. Astartes version offers 1-2 AP more depending on location.
SoB gear in general uses DH's "civilian" quality scale, Astartes gear makes a point of how much better even their "Common" is.
The books compare them to Guardsmen, not even trying to make this pale copy of the SoB be able to stand up to the Marines.

Opposed to what GW wrote:
The Godwyn-De'az is noted for its "superior performance". The Codex says their armour and weapons are "the equal of any Marine Chapter".
The armour is specifically described as possessing "the same degree of armoured protection as Marine PA".
SoB are "equipped to the highest standards" and their equipment is "amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce".
SoB are perfectly capable of "challenging renegade Marine Chapters" and, in fact, preferred by the Inquisition even before another Astartes Chapter when doing so (loyalty reasons).

It's just not the same. The RPG's SoB are balanced to work alongside Hive gangers, Guardsmen and feral warriors - whereas Marines receive their own rulebook with a ton of special perks and abilities only available to them, and for some reason better equipment than they should have. Squad mode is just as laughable: Space Wolves and Black Templars in a team for the first time having more cohesion than a squad of Sisters that fought together for more than a decade?

The RPG's Marines are actually invulnerable against the SoB's puny "civilian" (and yes, the core rulebook uses that mocking term for anything wielded by non-Astartes) bolters, which is all the more ridiculous when you consider that one of the Sisters' duties includes fighting traitor Marines. In GW's mind, anyways.

I also dislike how the RPG's Faith Talents basically turned the SoB into a group's AoE buff caster, but I guess we're digressing the more you give me opportunity to rant. I still love the RPG and buy the books, but have long since stopped taking many things it claims at face value concerning the overall canon.

Lynata wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, it doesn't.

Didn't you yourself complain about the SoB gear in the RPG, in one of your previous posts?

There's a difference between disliking one aspect of the rules (which I do quite often for ALL systems, GW is no exception-- in fact, I dislike FAR more about GW's rules and fluff than I do about FFG's) and you making a stupid statement that PDF get better equipment despite the fact that they do not.

I see - apologies for misjudging you, then. And I've only reiterated what the book says. I'm going to assume you simply interpreted the Solo's popularity different.

No, you merely misunderstand the difference between popularity and abundance.

Perhaps because I'm not a native English speaker. I always assumed that for something to be popular with a group it has to be available in some form. I also never talked of abundance, but the fact remains that this gun is better than the RPGs G'D, and the Sororitas don't get a bolter better than that.

I also see no reason why we are getting stuck at this, as it's just a small fraction of a much bigger issue - given that this "nerf" (compared to GW writing) stretches over several books and isn't just a single slip of a single author. I don't feel the Sororitas as a whole come near to what the Codex makes them to be. If you think differently, more power to you, and I guess we should simply agree to disagree.

Something that is popular is not necessarily common. Oprah Winfrey was popular, but there was still only one Oprah Winfrey.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:It doesn't just randomly summon a deamon, it summons a deamon that had been bound to the machine.

No.

It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The source you've provided doesn't say what it's made of.

...

*looks at open book*

Yes. It. Does.

Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But even if it does, how does it support your argument that non-psykers can become sorcerors?

Things with no presence whatsoever in the Immaterium-- soulless machines-- can effect the boundry between the Materium and Immaterium in extremely powerful ways.

In several IG books, Gaunt's Ghosts being one of them, the runic symbols of chaos make the protagonist's eyes sore and even induces vomiting just be looking at them. I never said that objects couldn't be imbued with the power of the warp and have some sort of effect in the material world.

What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?

THIS IS SORCERY. Imagine what something that DOES have a soul can do?

Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:Something that is popular is not necessarily common. Oprah Winfrey was popular, but there was still only one Oprah Winfrey.

But her show was widely available, via Television.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.

No it doesn't. The daemon is SUMMONED, I rather specifically said that in my description of it. I know what I said, and apparently you don't. Go back and actually read my post.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.

... because I wasn't directly quoting, I was describing. Duh. You are the one that made asinine assumtions about something you know nothing about.

Emperors Faithful wrote:What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?

Oftentimes... yes!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?

Because it proves that not everything that is purely scientific is psychic in nature. Pay attention more.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But her show was widely available, via Television.

Rocket Launchers are popular but most people will never see one, nevermind use one.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:It says, in the very paragraph you provided, that the daemon was bound to the artifact.

No it doesn't. The daemon is SUMMONED, I rather specifically said that in my description of it. I know what I said, and apparently you don't. Go back and actually read my post.

Melissia wrote:It's called a Logi Daemonis (Logi Malificum, Perfect Words, Warp-Questions). It is a complex, ritualistic machine that can be any size from a pocketwatch to an entire city (larger being more powerful and effecting more victims), which is designed to weaken the barrier between warpspace and realspace. Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine. The result is an incredibly poweful, yet thankfully short lived, daemonic infestation that ignites everything in its presence in warp-fire, turns freshly slain corpses into servitors, and attemtps to possess practically anyone who even looks at it. It may possess multiple victims even.

Source is Dark Heresy: Creature's Anathema.

Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine.

...but summons a daemon bound to the machine.

I did.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Cool, wasn't in the peice you provided. Also, big letters don't make you any less wrong. Stick to proper arguments, if you please.

... because I wasn't directly quoting, I was describing. Duh. You are the one that made asinine assumtions about something you know nothing about.

No I pointed out that the source you provided didn't actually tell me what it was made out of, you witheld information and got angry at me when I made a mistake working with what you had provided. You could have been polite about this an told me that there was more to the source than that, but for some reason you seem intent on turning this into a mudslinging contest.

Emperors Faithful wrote:What I do dispute is your attempt to seperate what is a Sorceror and what is a Psyker. Are you telling me that a Chaos sorceror is now just a regular guy that stumbled upon a magic book?

Oftentimes... yes!

Cool. Source.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Okay, even if I was to concede to your idea than non-psykers can still manipulate the warp to any meaningful degree (which I don't) how does this explain the powers of the Living Saint?

Because it proves that not everything that is purely scientific is psychic in nature. Pay attention more.

Purely scientific? I've never claimed that purely scientific items, such as a plasma gun, have anything to do with the warp. What are you talking about?

What I want to know is where you think this 'energy' that drives the Living Saints comes from.

Emperors Faithful wrote:But her show was widely available, via Television.

Rocket Launchers are popular but most people will never see one, nevermind use one.

That's because the military deals with rocket launchers, not the citizenry. Same as how the military deals with boltguns in DH, not the citizenry. I was only pointing out that your similie 'Boltguns are like Oprah Winfrey' falls flat on its face.

Emperors Faithful wrote:[snip]

No you didn't read.

Melissia wrote:summons a daemon

Shall I put it in bold, and underline it, and maybe italicize it too?

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:[snip]

No you didn't read.

Melissia wrote:summons a daemon

Shall I put it in bold, and underline it, and maybe italicize it too?

No it's okay. I'll do it for you.

Using it destroys the machine in the process, but summons a daemon bound to the machine.

...but summons a daemon bound to the machine.

Like that right?

Going back to the OP - I had seen an interesting discussion about the Living Saints being the equivalent of Champions of Chaos but in this case being Champions of the Emperor.

HE then grants them rewards in the form of their special powers - this would also get by the neccesity of being psykers as the Chaos Gods and so if this theory is continued, the Emperor can grant rewards to any "worthy" champion.

Their final disappearance would also fit as they Asscend to be part of the Emperor in the same way as Daemon Princes are created? Certianly the descirption of Saint Celestine fits an ascended being and again uses the term Apotheosis....

Just a thought

Emperors Faithful wrote:Like that right?

Stop being dense. I wrote that, it was not a quotation, it was ME DESCRIBING THE FETHING THING. If you haven't actually READ the source, you can't say the information isn't in it. And despite your claims otherwise, it IS in fact in there.

It SUMMONS A DAEMON, which is then bound to the machine. The daemon is not in the machine until it is fething summoned.

Melissia wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Like that right?

Stop being dense. I wrote that, it was not a quotation, it was ME DESCRIBING THE FETHING THING. If you haven't actually READ the source, you can't say the information isn't in it. And despite your claims otherwise, it IS in fact in there.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You are getting horribly worked up over this, and blaming me for it. I don't happen to have a copy of Dark Heresy on me, so I'm just going off what you said. You realise that providing the actual quotation would help, right?

It SUMMONS A DAEMON, which is then bound to the machine. The daemon is not in the machine until it is fething summoned.

That's a serious twisting of the sentence to get the interpretation you want, from what you provided it seems that the deamon was always bound to the object which (as far as inquisitors go) isn't uncommon. A direct quote would be nice.

Couple of Quotes for Creatures Anathama which may help

"The Logos Daemonis is a device of complex form that calls forth ferocious Daemons of the warp at the hands of either witch of innocent"

"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."

"The attendance of any form of warp craft or psker taint is not neccessary for a Logos to activate."

As its described in the book it acts as a short lived gateway allowing the creatures of the warp access to the materail world. As soon as takes the correct form it open a gateway to hell

Mr Morden wrote:"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."

Mr Morden wrote:Couple of Quotes for Creatures Anathama which may help

"The Logos Daemonis is a device of complex form that calls forth ferocious Daemons of the warp at the hands of either witch of innocent"

"Certain complex confogerations of rods, spindles and other structures can conjure forth Daemons and the fury of the Empyrean when manipulated in a particular fashion."

"The attendance of any form of warp craft or psker taint is not neccessary for a Logos to activate."

As its described in the book it acts as a short lived gateway allowing the creatures of the warp access to the materail world. As soon as takes the correct form it open a gateway to hell

Thank you.

Which is exactly as I described, but apparently you didn't want to bother to actually listen when I try to explain further.