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I am enjoying this thread immensely - being a DE player that is experimenting with the codex in trying not to conform with the obvious meta game is quite the challenge.

Trying to avoid the Kabalite/Venom/Baron/Ravager list has come full circle. Thor and Smasha have pointed out what I have suspected as well.

I am hoping to see someone discover something new - I know I am trying new stuff but I am getting my arse handed to me in spades. Looks like we conform or risk running a sub-par list

Ive decided to go against the grain. The Wyche Cult is coming. The Harem of Slaughter. :p

Kwi wrote:I am hoping to see someone discover something new - I know I am trying new stuff but I am getting my arse handed to me in spades. Looks like we conform or risk running a sub-par list

Yeah. I run a WWP list a lot that is more "fun" probably, and I want to use it at tournaments. But when I can barely eke out wins vs. armies I know my Raider Rush would eat by Turn 3 I know I still need to fine tune the list/tactics more.

Grim Smasha wrote:Ive decided to go against the grain. The Wyche Cult is coming. The Harem of Slaughter. :p

I think the name is pure win - good luck with this, Cult has some very competitive build options.

a straight up wych cult can be dirty. i think the trick there, is to have alot of things that either negate the GK power/force weapon effects, (so lots of high invun saves like wychs) and single wound models that make the force weapon useless. additonally a good amount of high str and high toughness will force him to utilize more psyker powers, (thus increasing his potential for a perils). to that end i was thinking of a combo wych/haemy list featuring wychs as troops, grotesques as elietes, haemys for HQ, and a combo of ravager/talos in the hev. maybe some scourge to provide a fast mobile anti tank, and haywire blasters could be pretty usefull on dreads. no list yet, but its something to mull over.

Grim Smasha wrote:Ive decided to go against the grain. The Wyche Cult is coming.

I am glad you are going this route - you mentioned earlier you were thinking of using wyches and haywires and I was hoping to hear how you were going to set them up. I like to run at least 2 squads of them in mine - would love to see a good list with more.

Thor665 wrote:Yeah. I run a WWP list a lot that is more "fun" probably, and I want to use it at tournaments. But when I can barely eke out wins vs. armies I know my Raider Rush would eat by Turn 3 I know I still need to fine tune the list/tactics more.

I switch back and forth between "rush" and "wwp" lists and my 4th edition tendencies are begging/calling me to return to my roots - there is got to be a decent way to run a portal list.

Grim Smasha wrote:The Harem of Slaughter. :p

Thor665 wrote:I think the name is pure win - good luck with this, Cult has some very competitive build options.

I second that, excellent name!
Hope to here more.

DarthSpader wrote:to that end i was thinking of a combo wych/haemy list featuring wychs as troops, grotesques as elietes, haemys for HQ, and a combo of ravager/talos in the hev. maybe some scourge to provide a fast mobile anti tank, and haywire blasters could be pretty usefull on dreads.

That is pretty much the mold I was running and getting a 50/50 ratio - I have been experimenting completely differently now but see myself getting back to this with using a wwp.

Hey man, I've noticed your in the current vassal league so we've probably been going up against the same lists and players. Your quite right Purifier/Dread spam is a nightmare for us (heavens forbid you roll annihilation), I've been getting my arse kicked by it. I was somewhat. Your army is practically identical to what I was running until recently, so believe me I feel your pain :p

What I've found to work well (as you've already said) is using wyches to tie up his dreads while you focus on the rest of the army, only issue is that a clever player will likely see this coming and deploy accordingly.

Beyond that I've taken to running 20 or so hellions with the baron and a couple of haemy's to start (a tad outlandish I know) to great success (against other armies as well ie. Mech IG and SW), a weakness with purifier/dread spam is while psycannons/psy HB's are excellent AT and anti infantry they cannot shoot at both so the inclusion of the hellions unit provides some tasty saturation for my fragile skimmers, neither of which he can afford to ignore. Even should he dump psycannons into the hellions I still have a 3+ cover save and a following FnP against the SB's. Beyond this 4 S7 attacks and 52-56 S5 attacks makes a mess of anything AV10 rear it touches (seriously, killed 2 chimeras and a vendetta in 1 assault phase XD), which really helps with AT issues, and will squish a small 5-6 man purifier squad, combat drugs and defensive grenades courtesy of the baron also give you a good chance to win combat even if your assaulted. The +1 to go first as dash has said is also huge. Also a potent shooting unit donating another 40 poisoned shots, however I'd err on the side of caution in this regard, you don't wanna wipe your target with shooting and be left unable to get off a multi assault into some vehicles. Hit and run is also huge (especially with rerolls), i've used this repeatedly to get out of CC and slingshot to wherever I wish to go.

It's important to quickly grab that last pain token (thinks of the unit running off the table and shudders) for fearless, with that in hand you can go to ground on an objective for 2+ and feel no pain with many fearless bodies.

Also as dash has said, pop the transports first. You can't afford to waste those SC shots even for a turn. Open a RB/rhino and blaze the squad inside.

Anyhow, good luck. It's a seriously tough matchup.

bring a revenant titan that you converted to the dark side. GK, meet pulsars.....pulsars meet the unit now known as paste.

theres a reason its called str D. D = DONE

I think Sliscus can help out your wyches a lot. And getting more wyches means more targets with haywire grenades. And more wyches mean more raiders, at least then you your lance shots at better range. Then with the loss of your poison shots you get some classic Sliscus poison trueborn to make use of his other boon. But against GKs I can imagine the Baron being equally if not more clutch here. Seems like first turn is a necessity. Bottom line though, is its a tough match up.


Edit: but yeah, dont even consider deep striking with Sliscus, unless your willing to commit everything in the list to blowing up armor and you can get some really good armor facings on targets. even then...

I'm having problems with Gray Knights myself too - with Tau though, as I'm still building my Deldar.
I faced an army with 7 Razorbacks, 3 Rifledreads and 15 Purifiers, 20 Strikers and Coteaz - list. I still don't get why I got a draw from that one, mostly cause he was rolling pretty bad most of the time (my Fire Warriors kicking Cotaz's ass in CC).
What helped me a lot was that his Razorbacks were pretty ignoreable, as my vehicles got so good AV and DPs. But I can see that against a Raider/Venom Spam those S6 Heavy Bolters are mean. At least when there are 7 of them. I haven't faced GKs with Deldar yet, but I'd focus on removing the Riflemans first, because they are the most dangerous unit IMO in the GK codex. Small Purifier squads can be killed by Venoms with Dual Cannons, as many have already said.

I've been following this and several other GK/DE threads for some time now. And there is one thing that no one seems to mention. S8 spam is hard to deal with, but why should that be any stronger against a DE list than S6 spam (Eldar can do it easily). He losses a lot of total guns in comparison to a S6 spam list (which I fear far more greatly), and no one is running around complaining about that. If anything I would say a GK list is easier to beat than a regular Space marine list, simply because he has a lot less guns to bring to the fight.

My friends have Space Wolves and Imperial guard, which are supposed to be our hardest match-ups before GK drove everyone mad. While tough fights, my list has been made specifically to tackle these types of opponents (triple manticore mech vet, triple long fangs with razorback spam) which both boast sheer firepower advantage. The key to victory is an attrition war with massive close combat attacks. I have several posts floating around these (and other) forums trying to engage people in the idea that Wyches (3 units with Haemies) and Beastmasters (2 units) in mass are the key to victory. Yes you lose some getting close to your opponent, but in the end you are tossing far more attacks against him then he can bring to bear against you.

Your ravagers (and other dark light weapons) focus on suppressing big threats. You don't have to worry about shooting transports as much as every stresses, because your Beastmasters can easily destroy them (and hopefully surround them taking the troops out instantly as well). Wyches can take any walker except for a Furioso unless it's already immobilized. GK are not any more amazing in close combat against Wyches than any other space marine. Their force weapons are useless since you have 1 wound models with 4+ invul saves.

In essence don't try and win a shooting war with a GK dread spam list. Get up close and personal, take some casualties for 1 single round of shooting (unless your wyches can get a first turn assault), then hit them with everything you got in close combat. As long as your list is that focused on CC, you should have no problem tabling them by turn 4 or 5 as you win the attrition war.

Ashenshugar wrote:I've been following this and several other GK/DE threads for some time now. And there is one thing that no one seems to mention. S8 spam is hard to deal with, but why should that be any stronger against a DE list than S6 spam (Eldar can do it easily). He losses a lot of total guns in comparison to a S6 spam list (which I fear far more greatly), and no one is running around complaining about that.

I have always stood by Eldar being a tough matchup for DE.

That said - no on ecomplains about it because the Eldar lack Fortitude. I pretty much gurantee that is the beginning and the end of most player's consternation with GK whether they know it or not. GKs force DE to play a different sort of game than our usual glance fest - and that messes with people's gameplans and thus, causes raaaage.

@Ashenshugar:

Ever played against Fortitude? There is no suppressing that for DE. You basically have to kill the GK vehicle to stop it from shooting.

Assaulting is not that reliable either because of 1) Cleansing Flame from purifiers and 2) dreads to lock up you beastmasters. And while locking up the dreads may be good, that's not really the case if you're more heavily invested in assault for your army and the rest of it your army is kind of thin.

Cleansing flame is a close combat attack (which is faq'd). Not to worried about it. An immobilize result is all I need to surpress a dread before glancing it to death.

Cleansing flame is also an initiative infinity attack, and is something to worry about because though you have a 4+ save, it's not like your Wyches are going to kill 10 MEQ - you're trying to tarpit them to death via being hard to hit/kill and Cleansing flame and power weapons galore mess with that.

Also, though I agree locking up a Dread in assault isn't a bad strategy - it's still hard to work one of those suckers apart via haywire grenades. The real benefit is just getting them locked in assault so they can't shoot - the Wyches will still take a while to end them.

Agreed, but I find it sound. Thor, if you don't mind, would you comment on my all Wyche list? The bottom 2k is the one I'll be running in the ladder I'm in right now. It's the second block of army post, doesn't contain the duke.

Grim Smasha wrote:So, just played against a 1750 Purifier Razorback/Dreadnought spam army and got my f@cking teeth kicked in. The player and I discussed, after the game, what went wrong. We both agreed I didn't make any errors in deployment and tactical choices throughout the game. 2 Ven Psyfle-Dreds, 2 normal Psyfle-Dreds, 1 Vindicare, 4 Razorbacks with Psybolt ammo and Purifiers/Halberds/Hammers, and Crowe. This is my first loss, as you can see from my sig, with this list. And it was a f#cking slaughter. In two turns it was 10kp to 2kp. At that point, I had a few warrior units, a haemonculus, a venom, and a ravager left. A few other things about to die next round. It was pointless, considering he still had 95% of his forces up and running. He did get first turn, obviously. I conceded and left the game, upset, and frustrated.

So, wtf are other DE players doing against this type of list?

I don't have a clue as to what you can do as I know little about DE, however your tone compelled me to reply:

1) Hey there good buddy, surely you can express your rage without lamely circumventing the language filter? I bet you have a wider vocabulary than this post of yours lets on. And then you won't be in violation of dakka guidelines.

2) As a first loss with your list, it would serve you well not to appear so damn angry over one loss out of what, 12, 13, 14 games (your record has obviously changed since the start of this thread). Try to relax a little, eh?

@Stavkat
There's no need for you to post this, or attempt to police my thread. If I'm not mistaken, the MODs have even been here and posted. If they wanted to say something to me, they would have. With or without your unneeded, unwanted, unappreciated, help. Next time, perhaps, rather than trolling my thread with your useless, and non-helpful, commentary, that adds nothing to it whatsoever, you'll save your time and find something more entertaining to do. Thanks a bundle,

Grim-

.. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate really.


I'm sure no one was trying to be rude or confrontational here, really.

We'll just, metaphorically, shake hands and chalk this one up to the perils of the medium with regards to misunderstandings.

And, indeed, if people have concerns over a thread, then please hit the MOD alert button and we'll come along and stamp on and crush your dreams, your desires and artifices err... I mean mosey along and check things out.

.. We now return you to your normal service...

reds8n wrote:.. I think what we have here is a failure to communicate really.

.. We now return you to your normal service...

... Pending a day in the box.