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Void__Dragon wrote:

Der Immolator wrote:I've got to ask: are you people serious when you mention Nurgle?

Absolutely. Nurgle cares about and loves everyone and everything. His plagues and poxes are viewed as gifts, and he views your suffering and despair as thanks. Nurgle isn't bound by the same logic or morality of human beings.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Also, Khorn, Nurgle and Tzeech would have been around since the Old Ones fought the Necrons, long before humanity was around. They are manifestation of the emotions that all the currently living races then, especially the Eldar with their high psychic load, would have created. However, their strength and influence would probably have been dramatically decreased.

Chaos didn't even exist during the War in Heaven.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Yes, they are manifestations of emotion....all the evil emotions (although granted they do all have a 'lighter' side as well).

Honor, bravery, hope, determination, and love are evil emotions?

The Chaos Gods aren't evil, they don't even have free will, they are bound by the emotions of morality, completely defined by mortals.

Well done on not reading the rest of the sentence you quoted....or what i was arguing against, we had already mentioned the good emotions linked with the Chaos Gods.

And the Chaos Gods are evil, why do some people not get this?

You say they dont have free will? Well their entire existence is based on the strength of the negative emotions prevalent during their 'birth', and are therefore ruled by these emotions (while also catering to/ feeding off of other emotions as well), and are evil. They are defined by their greater parts, which are evil.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Well the first one on the list of caring is Nurgle because he is the psychic manifestation of all caring and paternal feelings in the universe.

Nurgle is the god of despair, and in despair we seek out comfort in parental / god figures; he is not the manifestation of caring and lovey-dovey


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SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
Nurgle is not the God of comfort and caring ffs! His aspect of 'caring' for his underlings comes in part from their joy at seeing what effects their various plagues and whatnot do to people.

Lexicanum wrote:Nurgle and his daemons, in contrast to their putrid appearance, are jovial and friendly in demeanor. His daemon servants and mortal followers usually demonstrate a disturbing joviality and joy at the pestilence that he inflicts, seeing the plagues as gifts and the cries of their victims as gratitude rather than agony. This is demonstrated on the Daemon World of Bubonicus, where an endless chain of crazed revellers circle the planet's equator in a never ending dance. He is often referred to as Grandfather Nurgle, Father Nurgle or Papa Nurgle by his followers because of his paternal nature.

The common misconception is that Papa Nurgle is not evil, he is, hes just sneaky about it In the first SW omnibus (second book), when speaking with a GUO, Ragnar comments that the friendly, jovial nature of the GUO's conversation really hides the disgust and hatred it feels for them and how it uses its language (ok, it speaks straight into their heads, but still...) and tone to ridicule them.

The caring nature is what caused the death guard legion to turn.

Nurgle's nature had nothing to do with the Guard changing; Mortarion sacrificed the legions freedom so they wouldn't have to endure the pain wrought by Typhus and his trap

Revenent Reiko wrote:
And the Chaos Gods are evil, why do some people not get this?

Well because some people have their own believes on how should things work. And to some people - Chaos isn't evil at all - it is in fact our salvation to be tortured to death, and then be tortured for all eternity in death.

In that case, when i die don't sign me up for Salvation

I'm tempted to say papa Nurgle, but then I remembered that he tests all of his viruses/toxins on an eldar goddess... and on his subjects...

papathrax wrote:Tau Ethereals. annoying jerks.

I agree 100%. My friend plays tau, so I ended up reading his dex at some time or another...

Still, they are probably the kindest leaders/people in general.

Lorgar. He braved the Eye of Terror before the Heresy to find hope for humanity. He just came out a little different.

Magnus hasn't been mentioned yet and I would rank him as he was portrayed in "Thousand Sons" as a moral individual, albeit misguided.

Rennoc215 wrote:I'm tempted to say papa Nurgle, but then I remembered that he tests all of his viruses/toxins on an eldar goddess... and on his subjects...

papathrax wrote:Tau Ethereals. annoying jerks.

I agree 100%. My friend plays tau, so I ended up reading his dex at some time or another...

Still, they are probably the kindest leaders/people in general.

You must not have seen the story where an ethereal orders the railgun into production even after seeing it kill the tester. He comes off quite cold.

Lynata wrote:Maybe the strength of human emotions is to blame.

Except Eldar emotions are much stronger and keenly felt than Human emotions.

It stands to reason that humanity would not be the only source of the Chaos Gods, but they may well have been the primary catalyst (except in the case of Slaanesh), explaining why these Gods have popped up in these notably fitting eras.

One planet of Psychically weak beings (aside from the Shaman, who were gone by that point anyway; Psychically merged into the Emperor) being the primary catalyst for three Chaos Gods? That makes no sense in the context of 40K. Far greater massacres occurred millenia previously by far more Psychic species'.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Yes, we are to blame:

"The rise of Chaos and the first three Chaos Gods, as described, seems to correspond to the development to humanity, implying that Mankind"

That's conjecture and nothing more. Not only that, but it makes no sense for Mankind to be primarily responsible. Games Workshop may once have been leaning in that direction, but with the development the background has had it would no longer work.

Revenent Reiko wrote:Well done on not reading the rest of the sentence you quoted....or what i was arguing against, we had already mentioned the good emotions linked with the Chaos Gods.

And the Chaos Gods are evil, why do some people not get this?

You say they dont have free will? Well their entire existence is based on the strength of the negative emotions prevalent during their 'birth', and are therefore ruled by these emotions (while also catering to/ feeding off of other emotions as well), and are evil. They are defined by their greater parts, which are evil.

I read your entire post actually.

Because that without free will can't be constrained to human morality? Then of course there is the fact that mortals are like insects to them at best, more like bacteria actually. Them affecting humans is like spraying disinfectant on a window for us. Like Cthulhu, really.

Slaanesh is the only Chaos God that was born quickly, the others formed and were born over time, so I don't see how what you are claiming can be true.

Tzeentch is so random, illogical, and nonsensical that it falls well outside of human notions of morality, and in a more twisted sense so does Nurgle, in that his atrocities are committed from love. And some random Great Unclean One from the Space Wolf Omnibus and Nurgle are not synonymous, the Daemons of Chaos are explicitly capable of independent thought from their masters. Khorne, eh. Khorne used to have good qualities, but not so much anymore.

Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Chaos Cultists/Marines and Daemons are evil, but I don't think of the Gods as such, they are too far removed from mortal morality and their freedom of will is suspect IMHO.

Garviel Loken and Saul Tarvitz for pre-heresy characters.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Lynata wrote:Maybe the strength of human emotions is to blame.

Except Eldar emotions are much stronger and keenly felt than Human emotions.

They are? I always took the current Eldar to be more calm and reasonable, basically "space high elves" or the Vulcans of 40k.

I'm not an expert on the mind of Eldar and have read little stuff about them, though, so I could be completely wrong about it. Could anyone elaborate? Normally I'd not be that interested in a xeno race, but this is a pretty major thing and I at least want to get the basics about them right!

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:One planet of Psychically weak beings (aside from the Shaman, who were gone by that point anyway; Psychically merged into the Emperor) being the primary catalyst for three Chaos Gods? That makes no sense in the context of 40K. Far greater massacres occurred millenia previously by far more Psychic species'.

Such as? Aside from the birth of Slaanesh, of course.

I'd also not be sure if the level of psychic potential is important for "channeling" emotions into the warp. It could well only matter that the potential is there at all. Daemons don't only haunt psykers, after all - and it may be important to note that the level of daemonic incursions in the Imperium has increased remarkably in 999.M41. Perhaps because so many people are afraid of what will come? Basically, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, triggered by the collective emotions of the population of a million worlds. You worry that something bad will happen -> veil weakens -> something bad happens (daemons show up). At least I'd find that more viable than the Chaos Gods caring about some date on a human calendar.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Not to cause strife, but please refrain from referring to Jesus as jebus. It can be quite offensive to practitioners of the associated faith and is completely unnecessary.

Am I missing something? I thought that word came from Homer Simpson saying "I cant be a missionary, I dont even believe in Jebus!"

How on earth is that offensive?

Lynata wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Lynata wrote:Maybe the strength of human emotions is to blame.

Except Eldar emotions are much stronger and keenly felt than Human emotions.

They are? I always took the current Eldar to be more calm and reasonable, basically "space high elves" or the Vulcans of 40k.

I'm not an expert on the mind of Eldar and have read little stuff about them, though, so I could be completely wrong about it. Could anyone elaborate? Normally I'd not be that interested in a xeno race, but this is a pretty major thing and I at least want to get the basics about them right!

Ah, but they are like the Vulcans in that they've learned how to control their deep passions. Without balance an Eldar can quickly destroy him or herself. Craftworlders developed the Paths to control their nature and avoid what doomed their race before. Most of my information comes from the Lexicanum but whenever I see anything about the Eldar mentality elsewhere it mentions their intensified emotional state.

Lynata wrote:Such as? Aside from the birth of Slaanesh, of course.

The war against the Necrons? The battles the Eldar would've fought against the Orks and potentially other species' until they attained their supremacy. The numbers that died in battle (or plotted, or fell ill) during the Middle Ages on Earth pale in comparison to that of the starfaring species'.

I'd also not be sure if the level of psychic potential is important for "channeling" emotions into the warp. It could well only matter that the potential is there at all.

Maybe, but the Eldar would've vastly outnumbered the Humans then anyway, and many other alien species would have been doing the same thing as humanity.

Daemons don't only haunt psykers, after all - and it may be important to note that the level of daemonic incursions in the Imperium has increased remarkably in 999.M41.

Isn't the number of Psykers also greatly increasing?

Daemons can only cross over when the Warp barrier is weakened or they're summoned (or bound within an object). Non-Psychic Humans just by feeling emotion can't summon forth Daemons as far as I know.

Void__Dragon wrote:I read your entire post actually.

It didnt appear that way to me, my apologies for the assumption then.

Because that without free will can't be constrained to human morality? Then of course there is the fact that mortals are like insects to them at best, more like bacteria actually. Them affecting humans is like spraying disinfectant on a window for us. Like Cthulhu, really.

im not entirely sure this makes sense...

Slaanesh is the only Chaos God that was born quickly, the others formed and were born over time, so I don't see how what you are claiming can be true.

Tzeentch is so random, illogical, and nonsensical that it falls well outside of human notions of morality, and in a more twisted sense so does Nurgle, in that his atrocities are committed from love. And some random Great Unclean One from the Space Wolf Omnibus and Nurgle are not synonymous, the Daemons of Chaos are explicitly capable of independent thought from their masters. Khorne, eh. Khorne used to have good qualities, but not so much anymore.

Nurgle's atrocities arent committed out of love. They are done because Nurgle wants to destroy everything, for the whole universe (Galaxy at least) to rot and decay and fall under his sway.

Not true, GUOs, uniquely out of Greater Daemons, are actually a small part of Nurgle himself, not another Daemon grown strong in the influence of one of the Gods like Bloodthirsters or KoSs.

They have moved away from Khorne's honourable martial aspect yes, but they havent said he doesnt still stand for them. Much as i hate to reference it due to the absolute fallacy that is the rest of the story, the main enemy in the 3rd GK book is an honourable (albeit crazy killer) guy in his own way. The crazy 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' comes later...

Don't get me wrong, the vast majority of Chaos Cultists/Marines and Daemons are evil, but I don't think of the Gods as such, they are too far removed from mortal morality and their freedom of will is suspect IMHO.

lack of free will does not mean they are not evil, it just means they 'cant help it' (which is BS, but kind of makes sense)


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Brother Coa wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:
And the Chaos Gods are evil, why do some people not get this?

Well because some people have their own believes on how should things work. And to some people - Chaos isn't evil at all - it is in fact our salvation to be tortured to death, and then be tortured for all eternity in death.

And they are deemed crazy, no?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The war against the Necrons?

Well, that one had other Gods around that might have quelled any newcomers.

Pointing at the Eldar would seem valid, though, if they're really as emotional as y'all say.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Non-Psychic Humans just by feeling emotion can't summon forth Daemons as far as I know.

Hmm, that might be worth further research. In theory, every human might be a latent psyker somehow. It is, after all, a racial thing. Some just have more of it than others.

Not sure on that, though. It just seems like too big a coincidence that those eras on Earth fit nicely to the births of the various Chaos Gods. That said, one could assume that the eras themselves were affected by these births instead of the other way around?
I don't have the "Realms of Chaos" book myself, maybe it is better explained in there.

Lynata wrote:Well, that one had other Gods around that might have quelled any newcomers.

Slaanesh when born had the power to consume the Eldar Gods when they were not distracted by fighting a war of survival. The C'tan could not have intervened in the Warp, so that only leaves the Old Ones, and I've no idea about their power to influence the Warp directly.

Hmm, that might be worth further research. In theory, every human might be a latent psyker somehow. It is, after all, a racial thing. Some just have more of it than others.

Every Human has a soul and so will minutely affect the Warp if I recall correctly, but I don't believe it would be sufficient to actually bring forth Daemons.

It just seems like too big a coincidence that those eras on Earth fit nicely to the births of the various Chaos Gods.

My personal feeling is that Games Workshop was thinking that possibly humanity was the primary catalyst, but that they have since moved away from that as it now makes little sense. If humanity was the primary catalyst in the same way as the Eldar, one would assume that a similar occurrence to the Eye of Terror opening would have happened.

That said, one could assume that the eras themselves were affected by these births instead of the other way around?

That's an interesting theory and quite plausible, although I'm rather disinclined to think that the Middle Ages were vastly more violent than other eras in human history. Same with the Renaissance and plotting (if it was indeed the Renaissance, I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly.

Void__Dragon wrote:

yevix wrote:The Emperor - he gave up his life so that we could prosper and survive, if thats not caring I don't know what is.

Yeah man like that one time when he killed an old man and burned down his home. Real caring guy.

Papa Nurgle. He loves all life, from the smallest bacterium to the most advanced space-faring race.

Oh yeah, you mean that old guy that ended up running into the burning church when he was promised a new life?

Ok caring characters in WH40k lets see

first on the list is the entirety of the Salamanders chapter. The chapter believes "the strong should protect the weak" because of their home planet. They are treated as more then heroes when they returned to Armageddon, more then even the blood angels and ultramarines. Tu'shan the chapter master even came to blows with a captain of the marines molevolent after the latter ordered an artillery strike into a refugee camp after Orks breached the perimeter.

The Space Wolves chapter is next as they have been known to fight impossible odds to protect Imperial citizens and planets. Grimnar the wolf lord opposed the GK and Inquisitions quarantine and sterilisation of the armageddon populace during the first war and even with the threat of being declared excommunicatis traitoris, the space wolves managed to help many of the populace to escape the planet (ofcourse these survivors were hunted down and killed by the inquisition and GK)

of course heres a list of people that will never be on this list

anyone who is not the above lol

Nurgle.

They don't call him 'Papa Nurgle' for nothing, you know. He's actually a pretty decent chap.

Nurgle is caring but his caring is twisted being the god of despair and pestellance.

In Chaos Daemons it describes a war between Slaanesh and Nurgle as Slaanesh was keeping an Eldar goddess prisoner and her pleas for help was enough to move Nurgle (even big bloated fat guys need love lol).

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Addicted to Bleach wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Probably Gaunt. Says he can remember the face of every soldier that's died under his command (the ones he got a chance to meet anyway).

Thats not actually Gaunt, you are thinking of Bastonne. Also he led an expedition into Nurgle territory to save one man. (He eventually shot him to prevent the spread of disease within his ranks)

I have no idea what your talking about.

Bastonne is an upgrade sergeant for Vets, while bastonne is a great guy who remembers all the men he lost in his squad, Gaunt has memorized an entire regiment and kept them all, both alive and dead, in his memories.

I don't see how people are saying the Emperor is caring. It was actually because he insulted Lorgar for not taking planets quickly enough in the Great Crusade that caused the Word Bearers to worship Chaos. The Emperor was not really that much of a caring chap...

Kharn. Just because he's such a great guy.

Jokes aside, i'd cast my vote for the Salamanders. They care about the citizenry of the planet and not to mention they actually are allowed to stay with their families and visit them from time to time after they become Space Marines from what i've heard.

nomotog wrote:

Rennoc215 wrote:I'm tempted to say papa Nurgle, but then I remembered that he tests all of his viruses/toxins on an eldar goddess... and on his subjects...

papathrax wrote:Tau Ethereals. annoying jerks.

I agree 100%. My friend plays tau, so I ended up reading his dex at some time or another...

Still, they are probably the kindest leaders/people in general.

You must not have seen the story where an ethereal orders the railgun into production even after seeing it kill the tester. He comes off quite cold.

Not cold, just for lack of a better phrase, doing what was necessary for the Greater Good. If a few Fire Warriors died testing a new weapon that could save the lives of colonies, wouldn't it be worth it?

orz192 wrote:Magnus hasn't been mentioned yet and I would rank him as he was portrayed in "Thousand Sons" as a moral individual, albeit misguided.

I think Magnus loses as he pretty much let his home world get destroyed and then was so far removed from his legion that he didn't do anything to overcome the flesh change once the remaining 1,000 sons were swept off to the sorcerer's world.

Good chap but his caring got broken once he nuked the emperor's defenses.

Lynata wrote:Well, that one had other Gods around that might have quelled any newcomers.

Pointing at the Eldar would seem valid, though, if they're really as emotional as y'all say.

The Old Ones and their child races (Including Eldar) warring with the Necrons and their C'tan masters is what created Chaos, before that the Warp was a calm, decidedly non-dangerous place. The desperation of the Old Ones, who were nearing extinction, altered the Warp into the place we know today.

Also, on the emotions of Eldar, the Craftworld Eldar are so subdued because they are so emotional. Eldar emotions have a much wider range than human ones, and Eldar have to keep those emotions in check, lest they be "locked" into one Path. This is the story behind Exarchs, who on the Path of the Warrior became so emotionally invested in the thrill of battle that it is all they can do. This is also the story behind the Dark Eldar, sadistic tortue isn't just a hobby for them, it's a psychological need, it's literally an addiction for them.


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Revenent Reiko wrote:It didnt appear that way to me, my apologies for the assumption then.

Not a problem, apologies for failing to convey that I had read your post.

im not entirely sure this makes sense...

The Chaos Gods perceive reality on a much higher scale than mortals do, their perception of the Immaterium and Materium greater than any mortal, and their existence is inarguably above mortals. Judging them via mortal morality isn't really possible.

Nurgle's atrocities arent committed out of love. They are done because Nurgle wants to destroy everything, for the whole universe (Galaxy at least) to rot and decay and fall under his sway.

What makes you say that? I literally have never heard that anywhere. Since the codex makes it clear that Nurgle is a god of "Life and laughter," rather than a "morose purveyer of despair and gloom." Nurgle's creed is that the greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments, and that in times of crisis mortals are truly tested and driven to excel. It's very twisted, but there is no malice behind it.

Not true, GUOs, uniquely out of Greater Daemons, are actually a small part of Nurgle himself, not another Daemon grown strong in the influence of one of the Gods like Bloodthirsters or KoSs.

All Greater Daemons are created from the body of their God, I'm not sure what you're saying here. Ku'gath the Plaguefather in particular explicitly is capable of independent though from Nurgle, while Nurgle just laughed and wasn't bothered by Ku'gath drinking his potent disease, Ku'gath felt bad about it and now tries to recreate the disease. Beyond that, the codex refers to Daemons as "static bubbles" or something in the Warp, not changed by it. Do you have a source for saying that GUOs are merely extensions of Nurgle himself?

They have moved away from Khorne's honourable martial aspect yes, but they havent said he doesnt still stand for them. Much as i hate to reference it due to the absolute fallacy that is the rest of the story, the main enemy in the 3rd GK book is an honourable (albeit crazy killer) guy in his own way. The crazy 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' comes later...

That's pretty good to hear. I probably wouldn't hate Khorne as much if they emphasized that he was more than just a raving simpleton who would be just as happy with you killing chickens as you would warriors.

lack of free will does not mean they are not evil, it just means they 'cant help it' (which is BS, but kind of makes sense)

Eh, I disagree personally, but respect your opinion.


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calgar 2.5 wrote:Oh yeah, you mean that old guy that ended up running into the burning church when he was promised a new life?

Yeah dawg, a new life of oppression, and being forced to watch all he worked for in his life burned in the name of a cause he couldn't believe in.

Oh, and of course there is the Emperor's brutal chastising of Lorgar's Imperial Cult, something he should have nipped in the bed decades ago, but chose not to. Something Lorgar points out.

I'd probably vote for Gaunt. I would say Nurgle, but I think the same argument for why the Chaos gods aren't truly evil applies to this also: they are operating on a level completely incomprehensible to us. Whoever said it earlier was completely right in that their actions are equivalent to us using an antibacterial wipe. To the bacteria, we are cruel and malevolent beings that can end their lives on a whim, but to us they are of absolutely no consequence because they operate on a level so far below us.

OK think about this if "papa" nurgle is such a good person why does he go out of his way to make people poop there pants. i mean i wouldn't feel cared for if i was dying in a pile of my own feces?!!!!!


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And i vote for gaunt he's the nicest person.