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So what would be a good counter against a full grey knight terminators ?

Still starting my army so got 2 guard squads (10 men) 2 squads of storm troopers and some lemans.

Baardaap wrote:So what would be a good counter against a full grey knight terminators ?

Still starting my army so got 2 guard squads (10 men) 2 squads of storm troopers and some lemans.

Prayers, and/or medusas w/ no bastion breachers.

The problem with Grey Knights is that they're lethal to anything within about 24" range. This means that Demolishers are going to have to park in the line of fire to shoot at them.

You might be able to rush a plasma vet squad up to hit them. By my reckoning, you'd get about 3 kills or so with that assuming they're not in cover. The problem is, your squad isn't long for this world afterwards.

Medusae will get a good shot or two off, but even at 36" range, being as fragile as they are, I would imagine they would get shot up fairly quickly, between S8 autocannons and then just psycannons when they get close enough.

As I see it, there's really only one way to deal with them on your own terms. Lascannons. Be it HWT or Vendettas, that's going to be your best shot for not trading squads. The problem with that is that they may also have other scary things you'd rather fire the lascannons at. The good news is that they shouldn't have too many vehicles if they're running a Terminator heavy list, as they get expensive quickly.

The problem with GKTs is target prioritization: They don't have enough stuff on the table to engage nearly as many targets as you can put on the table.

Between 4-6 squads of Veterans w/ meltaguns or plasmaguns, 2 Vendettas, a CCS w/ meltaguns or plasma guns...they just can't engage enough of your targets to make a meaningful dent.

Don't worry about going all ahead full to close the distance. At range they die like any other Terminators. Vendettas make them cry, denying armor and FNP. Hydras put out enough wounds that they'll be failing saves. Even lots of multilasers should have an effect. Grey Knight Terminators aren't what you have to worry about. You have to worry about Deathwing Terminators that WANT to get close, don't really care to shoot you that much, and have a 2+/3++ across the entire army.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:There are a lot of things you can do. Don’t deploy on the line across from the valk for starters.

In order for this to work the valk/vend has to go in the center of the table. If you can castle up you can get for enough away that you’re completely out of the threat range. The funny thing is that armies that can castle up far away in a corner against guard and win probably aren’t especially scared of the valk rush. So you suicided a 130 pt vet unit and probably your vendetta to kill my 75pt razorback? I’ll take it!

Line your tanks up but about 3-4 inches apart with the one you want to protect slightly back. Because of the way the valk is built there is a specific way you need to move to pull off the rush. A tank 3 inches off either corner of your land raider, and your raider only a few inches back, is going to shut down all of the angles of attack.

Infantry screens are still ok, because the point it is to keep the scout move far enough away that the disembark is more than 12 from the tank. If the screen gets shot turn 1 it does matter because the scout move didn’t get the valk close enough for the assault.

In order for this to really work and make it worth while I would say your opponent must have either
A) A really killy unit in a landraider that will suck up an exorbitant amount of shots when it’s in your face (THSS termies come to mind). Or,
B) A wall of short ranged high armor targets in a squadron like leman russes.

Any other time the sacrifice just isn’t really worth the pay off. And even in those situation you need first turn and an opponent who doesn’t know how to stop it, or at least accidentally deploys allowing it.

If the Valks are deployed near the center of the table, prior to scouting, then on a 6x4 foot table you only leave about 4 square feet "safe". Even less room is "safe" if you take multiple demo vets/valks. If you already had vets in vendettas in your list then paying 30-60 points to dictate the opponents deployment, is definitely worth it.

Generally, guard wants to push the enemy as far away as possible, which this would do. If the opponent adjust their deployment significantly, then it's a win. If they don't and you can get the assault off, its probably a win.

I'd love to see some opponents put out an infantry screen, then just scout in a different direction and take out the unprotected screening units.

If trading the vet squad and a turn of shooting from the valk isn't worth the potential target. You don't have to assault you can always scout in another direction. Trading a 130pt squad for a 75pt transport might sound like a bad idea, but if it limits the mobility of a potentially dangerous unit, it might be worth it.

It probably won't single handedly win you a game, but it never hurts to have another tool.


@Greyknights

Grey knights are generally a good match up for the Guard. The guard has an incredible amount of high strength, ap 1-3, shooting.

The only time you should have an abundance of trouble with Grey knights is if you're playing a kill point game.

@that guy over there

I said that if the opponent can castle up against the valk and still hang there with guard it’s probably an army that doesn’t have a target worth suicideing on. It’s either another guard army or a shooty wolves/BA list that doesn’t necessarily need to be in your face, it’s actually more important for you to shove your melta weapons down their throat.

As far as GK’s being a good match up, the GREATLY depends on the GK list. Something terminator or paladin heavy, then yes for all the reasons outlined above. But for other lists (imo better lists) they can be a nightmare for guard.

The below list clocks in around 1850, variants of it can range from 1750 to 2000 with only minor changes that don’t really effect its capabilities.

Libby w/ shrouding and might of titan
Brother champion
~8 purifiers (depending on pts) with halberds
3 10 Man Strike squads with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammo
Storm Raven
3 Rifleman dreads

At range the dreads and strike squads are going to blow up /stun 6 tanks a turn, potentially more if the strike squads combat squad. All while the storm raven is shoving a unit down your throat that can get a 3+ cover save, S8 2d6 armor penetration, with no way for you to stop their psychic shenanigans. Even a unit of hydras doesn’t have a reliable change of bringing down the storm raven. And if you play on a table with proper terrain it’s easy for a raven to get natural cover from the hydras and then get a 3+ cover save anyway.

It is beatable, but it is tied for the worst matchup I have come across with my guard. The only thing that gives me close to as many headaches is poding wolves.

I'd be more worried if they have falchions than halberds...their natural initiative is higher anyway, and extra attacks mean more dead guardsmen.

That GK list is very shooty. No one out shoots us guardsmen. NO ONE. At that points level, running either mechvets or blob, you should have enough heavy weapons+ orders (maybe) to put that storm raven out of action quickly, followed by the dreads. Bring it down or Fire on my Target to either force more hits or make him re-roll that cover save, with lascannons, should kill it... it's only av12. Once you've forced the purifiers to walk (I'm assuming that the purifiers were in the storm raven, and they live through whatever killed the storm raven), your blobs/vets should be able to reduce them to the point they're not effective anymore. The same with the strike squads - one turn of shooting from either a blob or plasmavet squad should kill 3+ marines, so if he's combat squadded them they're not much of a threat anymore.

the halberds are really for other armies. the stack MoT and HHS is what really hurts.

I don't think I agree that no one out shoots guard. Especially mech guard. There are lots of armies that can stand up and slug with you at long range. At close range you have more special weapons than anyone, but they usually have enough grenades fists and meltas to put some hurting back on you.

The list above will outshoot mech guard at range. The only hope is if you hit the strike squads so hard so fast, that you cripple their relatively low number of scoring units and then use your much larger unit count to win. but its much easier said than done, and if you match up in a kill points mission I don't know what you can really do. Still trying to figure it out myself.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:the halberds are really for other armies. the stack MoT and HHS is what really hurts.

I don't think I agree that no one out shoots guard. Especially mech guard. There are lots of armies that can stand up and slug with you at long range. At close range you have more special weapons than anyone, but they usually have enough grenades fists and meltas to put some hurting back on you.

The list above will outshoot mech guard at range. The only hope is if you hit the strike squads so hard so fast, that you cripple their relatively low number of scoring units and then use your much larger unit count to win. but its much easier said than done, and if you match up in a kill points mission I don't know what you can really do. Still trying to figure it out myself.

I fought a GK player yesterday that was *definitely* out-shooting me. He had three TL-autocannon dreads, some terminators with a psycannon, a psybolt-assault-cannon razorback, and a purifier squad with four psycannons. The problem was not that he had more guns than me, which he did not, but that his guns were devastatingly more effective. Against AV12 the str 8 TL-autocannon dreads are *way* better than hydras, and the fact is that when he shoots my stuff he at the least keeps it from shooting next turn, whereas if you shake or stun a GK vehicle, it is very likely to keep shooting, especially because we don't have any psychic defense.

He ended making a big mistake on turn four, and got a poor run roll on turn 5, giving me a tie on objectives, but it was definitely an up-hill battle, and if he'd pushed more aggressively for that objective he'd have won easily.

How did he get s8 autocannons?

Also, Doesn't psybolt only affect bolter type weapons?

What were you running?

papathrax wrote:How did he get s8 autocannons?

Also, Doesn't psybolt only affect bolter type weapons?

What were you running?

nope, auto-cannon and assault cannons too.
Against GK, range is your friend, their short range fire power is superior, but with arty, vendettas, hydras you ll destroy them at range, before they shoot, then when they close you have mechvets.

How did he get s8 autocannons?

Also, Doesn't psybolt only affect bolter type weapons?

You are probably mis-reading the stat lines.

Autocannons are Str 7, +1 for psybolts to make str 8. Baseline dreads are str 6.
Paid for the upgrades

Had a couple of games yesterday using my Parkinglot (Melta CCS in chim, 4x Vet squads 2xplas, 1xmelt, 1x autocannon in Chims, powerblob & flamer bus PCS, 8+1 PBS in Chims, 2x Vendettas, 2x Hydras, 2x Manticores), one against 3x Vindi CSM, and one against Purifier GKs (2 Razors w/ Purifiers, 2 Asscannon Razors w/ Interceptors, 2 Psyriflemen (1 ven), a Stormraven w/ Librarian & Purifiers, and a Razor w/ Crowe). Tabled both opponents. Against Chaos it's less suprising. Against GKs, the key was to minimize their ability to engage at 24" and offer only 3+ cover wherever possible.

Against GKs, generally I made sure to prioritize like this:

1. Stormraven. Opening shot of the game actually smoked that Storm Raven with Vendetta fire. Ouch! A bunch of Purifiers multiassaulting your parking lot can really screw things up for you, and this was the highest mobility unit in the game. It had to go.

2. Purifer Razors. They're S7 Assault cannons w/ nasty units inside. Because they're easier to effect than the Psyriflemen, these were #2.

3. Psyriflemen. These were the long range threat and they needed to be neutralized.

4. GK Razors + squads. Not functionally that much different than Purifiers but they aren't fearless, so they can be effected by the PBS' Weaken Resolve.


FWIW my opponent prioritized,

1. Hydras. Not sure why.

2. PBS. Not sure why again as he was mostly Fearless.

3. Manticores.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Had a couple of games yesterday using my Parkinglot (Melta CCS in chim, 4x Vet squads 2xplas, 1xmelt, 1x autocannon in Chims, powerblob & flamer bus PCS, 8+1 PBS in Chims, 2x Vendettas, 2x Hydras, 2x Manticores), one against 3x Vindi CSM, and one against Purifier GKs (2 Razors w/ Purifiers, 2 Asscannon Razors w/ Interceptors, 2 Psyriflemen (1 ven), a Stormraven w/ Librarian & Purifiers, and a Razor w/ Crowe). Tabled both opponents. Against Chaos it's less suprising. Against GKs, the key was to minimize their ability to engage at 24" and offer only 3+ cover wherever possible.

Against GKs, generally I made sure to prioritize like this:

1. Stormraven. Opening shot of the game actually smoked that Storm Raven with Vendetta fire. Ouch! A bunch of Purifiers multiassaulting your parking lot can really screw things up for you, and this was the highest mobility unit in the game. It had to go.

2. Purifer Razors. They're S7 Assault cannons w/ nasty units inside. Because they're easier to effect than the Psyriflemen, these were #2.

3. Psyriflemen. These were the long range threat and they needed to be neutralized.

4. GK Razors + squads. Not functionally that much different than Purifiers but they aren't fearless, so they can be effected by the PBS' Weaken Resolve.


FWIW my opponent prioritized,

1. Hydras. Not sure why.

2. PBS. Not sure why again as he was mostly Fearless.

3. Manticores.

Target priority against IG should always be manticores and vendettas 1st, though I could see him going after secondary targets because of 24" range issues with psycannons and the desire to avoid 4+ cover saves from manticores behind chimera or vendetta scout moves.

Grey Knights are generally a good match up for guard. Generally all flavors of guard do well against low model count armies.

A Grey Knight list designed to kill mech stands a good chance of stomping Mech Guard, but so will most armies tailored to the current mech heavy meta.

But there are other IG lists that provide a better match up. In the games I've played with my basilisk heavy list, it had a hard time not tabling a Grey Knight opponent.

What sort of lists give power blob guard a hard time? Purifiers stand out, as do close combat Henchmen, what else in the Grey Knights codex does well against horde armies?

Thatguyoverthere wrote:What sort of lists give power blob guard a hard time? Purifiers stand out, as do close combat Henchmen, what else in the Grey Knights codex does well against horde armies?

Any list with a Vindicare in it. Hellfire round on the Commisar, squad is no longer stubborn re-rollable, and then you can shoot/charge it at your pleasure and totally waste ~200pts of the IG army (per blob). Many people advise to take more than one Commisar to combat this but, unless you are tailoring your list, one is all you will really have.

L. Wrex

Thatguyoverthere wrote:A Grey Knight list designed to kill mech stands a good chance of stomping Mech Guard, but so will most armies tailored to the current mech heavy meta.

But the GK list designed to beat mech is also the GK list designed to beat hordes. The same unit set ups are amazing against tanks and hordes and MEQ and are not really expensive.

Your right the angels and wolves and even C:SM can tailor and shut down guard, even in the shooting phase. But GKs don’t need to tailor. Just the normal GK lists shut down mech guard better than tailored wolves or angels. Plus it’s really good in CC, plus it has crazy psychic shenanigans, plus it has extreme mobility, plus it is very durable, plus it matches up extremely well against all of the rest of the major tournament lists, plus it utterly crushes most oddball lists you could throw at it.

I didn’t mean for this to turn into a GK hate thread, but I think they are such a bad match up and they are going to become so prevalent it is making me seriously consider reworking my entire army to be competitive.

Someone mentioned going basilisk heavy, that’s not a terrible idea. But between proper spacing and insanely prevalent cover I question the milage you can really get out of them. A friend in my area thinks Russ heavy is the new way to go, and they may last a bit longer but their damage output suffers for the same reasons as the bassy.

I don’t know what we have that is tough for them, I genuinely want to know. I’m struggling against players I was crushing a month or two ago. Crushing with lists like pod wolves and other things that are not particularly easy for guard.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Any list with a Vindicare in it. Hellfire round on the Commisar, squad is no longer stubborn re-rollable, and then you can shoot/charge it at your pleasure and totally waste ~200pts of the IG army (per blob). Many people advise to take more than one Commisar to combat this but, unless you are tailoring your list, one is all you will really have.

L. Wrex

Somehow I had forgotten about Vindicare. It's a good thing that they are a unique choice.

A nasty GK player could also use them to target CCS and PCS, so as to shut down Orders.

The Vindicare would definitely be high priority, but even if it only gets one shot off, it probably more then paid for itself.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Someone mentioned going basilisk heavy, that’s not a terrible idea. But between proper spacing and insanely prevalent cover I question the milage you can really get out of them. A friend in my area thinks Russ heavy is the new way to go, and they may last a bit longer but their damage output suffers for the same reasons as the bassy.

I don’t know what we have that is tough for them, I genuinely want to know. I’m struggling against players I was crushing a month or two ago. Crushing with lists like pod wolves and other things that are not particularly easy for guard.

Russes seem like a good idea. The LRBT seems like a good choice since it can fire from the other side of the board and for the most part laugh off any strength 8 shots. Extra armor might be an idea, so that it cant be shaken by strength 8? You could squadron them, but then s8 could potentially kill one, even on a glance.

Exterminators seem like a good idea too, with 36 inch range they can stay farther away then LRD, and still ignore terminator armor, and with 3-5 blasts, you should be able to put enough wounds out there that even cover saves shouldn't be to much of a problem. The only downside I can see is that it's not st8, so no instant death.

What initiative to halberds strike at? I haven't done any math hammering, but Rough Riders might be an idea, provided that they can actually strike first.

Storm Troopers, which are rapidly finding a way into all my mech lists, might be a worthwhile investment. If my math is right they have a little under a 2/3 chance of shutting down a Rifleman Dread in a single round of shooting, which is about as much shooting as they are liable to make. The major downside being that they aren't going to come in until at least the second turn, which means you have to eat the rifleman's fire for at least a turn before the Storm Troopers arrive.

Rough riders would rock except halberds are I6. Plus with cleaning flame and stacking HHs they’ll laugh off the rough riders before the ever get to swing.

Rough riders would be good against Strike squads if they could get close enough. But unlike tac squads they don’t need to get close to kill you. So their use as a counter charge unit isn’t really applicable, and I think they’ll get shot to pieces if you try and charge up with them.

I have seriously been considering camo cloaks or whatever is you can buy for the russes. At AV14 they’re probably only going to glance you once a turn. To stop that 2/3 of the time and keep shooting basically all game seems good to me. But its SOOO expensive. But it’s on my list of things to experiment with.

Manticore

i look and see that it is rubbish. not only is it a one shot only weapon (ok 4 i know but shhh)
i know strenth 10 looks awsome but what use does it have really, there are far more deadlyier options.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Manticore

i look and see that it is rubbish. not only is it a one shot only weapon (ok 4 i know but shhh)
i know strenth 10 looks awsome but what use does it have really, there are far more deadlyier options.

Really? what other choice gives you the chance for 3 Str 10 pie plates on land raiders or Hoards alike per turn for 4 turns?

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Rough riders would rock except halberds are I6. Plus with cleaning flame and stacking HHs they’ll laugh off the rough riders before the ever get to swing.

Rough riders would be good against Strike squads if they could get close enough. But unlike tac squads they don’t need to get close to kill you. So their use as a counter charge unit isn’t really applicable, and I think they’ll get shot to pieces if you try and charge up with them.

I have seriously been considering camo cloaks or whatever is you can buy for the russes. At AV14 they’re probably only going to glance you once a turn. To stop that 2/3 of the time and keep shooting basically all game seems good to me. But its SOOO expensive. But it’s on my list of things to experiment with.

Cammo nets? I hadn't really thought about them, but they might be worth it. Maybe give it to one Russ in a squadron? They should both benefit from the save bonus right?

I don't have my codex on hand.

What do you think about Banewolves or Colossi (Colossuses?) ? Given the amount of St8 shooting they probably won't live long, but if then do they have a good chance of wrecking some face.

Maybe hide them behind some Russes? A colussus would be able to hide behind a Squadron of LRBT without any problems.

Maybe run a pair of LR Demolishers with a banewolf behind them. Since the Demolishers will have to close in order to get their shots off, the Banewolf would have moving cover. Although you're stuck moving at Russ speeds.

alarmingrick wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:Manticore

i look and see that it is rubbish. not only is it a one shot only weapon (ok 4 i know but shhh)
i know strenth 10 looks awsome but what use does it have really, there are far more deadlyier options.

Really? what other choice gives you the chance for 3 Str 10 pie plates on land raiders or Hoards alike per turn for 4 turns?

if your using Barrage weapons for anti tank there is somthing wrong. and personally i would much rather take str 9 ap3 than str 10 ap 4 against hords and MEQs

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Cammo nets? I hadn't really thought about them, but they might be worth it. Maybe give it to one Russ in a squadron? They should both benefit from the save bonus right?

I believe that is correct, if they let you buy it for just one. I think the wording might require you to take it on every model in a squad.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
What do you think about Banewolves or Colossi (Colossuses?) ? Given the amount of St8 shooting they probably won't live long, but if then do they have a good chance of wrecking some face.

I’ve been messing with banewolves since I started the army and I always find them to be very “meh”. Once you trick them out with necessary upgrades they start getting expensive. Smoke launcher is 5 pts, extra armor is a good idea so now you’re up to 150 pts. The funny thing is the armies where they were the best for me were horde armies not meqs. Most of those armies can’t stop it at range so it flys up with two templates and drops an entire boyz squad or gaunt squad or something like that. Then needing 6s to hit it in cc is not easy for a lot of those armies. But against marines it has never done what my imagination says it could do.

And I want collosuses (I think that’s right) to be good so badly but I can’t get passed indirect only. And I think the min is 36 which is HUGE. If it’s 24 someone correct me because that’s a big deal.

So it can’t shoot when moving on from reserve (and I reserve a lot), it can’t shoot units right up in its face. About the only thing it is good for is longfangs, and that’s too narrow of a niche for me. I think grey knights will just crowd it inside its minimum (but that could be a good way to bring them close to your meltas and plasma guns… gears are a turning).

Thatguyoverthere wrote:
Maybe run a pair of LR Demolishers with a banewolf behind them. Since the Demolishers will have to close in order to get their shots off, the Banewolf would have moving cover. Although you're stuck moving at Russ speeds.

That’s similar to how I usually play the banewolf. I hang it behind my chimera wall to punish people for charging it. It’s really effective against bad players but good players usually maneuver or do any number of disruptive things (not the least of which is just blowing it up). But maybe with russes drawing fire it would last longer? I don’t know, another thing to add to the experiment list I suppose.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The manticores 2 shots does more damage against marines in cover than basilisks 1. Plus it's the best option for long range raider busting.

I think it usually gets a bit inflated online but it is still a very solid choice.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

if your using Barrage weapons for anti tank there is somthing wrong. and personally i would much rather take str 9 ap3 than str 10 ap 4 against hords and MEQs

There's always something wrong. If your opponent knows how to play a mechanized army, he's providing cover saves by blocking his rear vehicles with front vehicles. If you use Ordnance Barrage weapons firing indirectly, so they won't get coversaves. This literally doubles the weapon's effectiveness. Furthermore, many AV14 vehicles (Battle Wagon, Russ tanks) have better Front armor than Side armor, and Ordnance Barrage hits side armor. On a Battle Wagon, you're penetrating on a 3+ versus a 5+. That also doubles the weapon's effectiveness.

So a S10 Ordnance Barrage weapon is 4x as effective against a Battle Wagon as a S10 shot hitting front armor on an obscured target.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

if your using Barrage weapons for anti tank there is somthing wrong. and personally i would much rather take str 9 ap3 than str 10 ap 4 against hords and MEQs

There's always something wrong. If your opponent knows how to play a mechanized army, he's providing cover saves by blocking his rear vehicles with front vehicles. If you use Ordnance Barrage weapons firing indirectly, so they won't get coversaves. This literally doubles the weapon's effectiveness. Furthermore, many AV14 vehicles (Battle Wagon, Russ tanks) have better Front armor than Side armor, and Ordnance Barrage hits side armor. On a Battle Wagon, you're penetrating on a 3+ versus a 5+. That also doubles the weapon's effectiveness.

So a S10 Ordnance Barrage weapon is 4x as effective against a Battle Wagon as a S10 shot hitting front armor on an obscured target.

i see your point but a few inches this way or that way bam str5 i would much rather a vanquicsher personally.

The manticores 2 shots does more damage against marines in cover than basilisks 1. Plus it's the best option for long range raider busting.

thats all well and good but in the 2 manticore shots you will have had 2 basalisk shots the manticore only fires one rocket a turn.
in addition a vanquisher and vendetta are both better than the manticore for long range tank busting

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

if your using Barrage weapons for anti tank there is somthing wrong. and personally i would much rather take str 9 ap3 than str 10 ap 4 against hords and MEQs

There's always something wrong. If your opponent knows how to play a mechanized army, he's providing cover saves by blocking his rear vehicles with front vehicles. If you use Ordnance Barrage weapons firing indirectly, so they won't get coversaves. This literally doubles the weapon's effectiveness. Furthermore, many AV14 vehicles (Battle Wagon, Russ tanks) have better Front armor than Side armor, and Ordnance Barrage hits side armor. On a Battle Wagon, you're penetrating on a 3+ versus a 5+. That also doubles the weapon's effectiveness.

So a S10 Ordnance Barrage weapon is 4x as effective against a Battle Wagon as a S10 shot hitting front armor on an obscured target.

i see your point but a few inches this way or that way bam str5 i would much rather a vanquicsher personally.

The manticores 2 shots does more damage against marines in cover than basilisks 1. Plus it's the best option for long range raider busting.

thats all well and good but in the 2 manticore shots you will have had 2 basalisk shots the manticore only fires one rocket a turn.
in addition a vanquisher and vendetta are both better than the manticore for long range tank busting

You do know that 'one rocket' can give you 3 pie plates, right?

JamesMclaren123 wrote:
thats all well and good but in the 2 manticore shots you will have had 2 basalisk shots the manticore only fires one rocket a turn.
in addition a vanquisher and vendetta are both better than the manticore for long range tank busting

I don't understand the first part. The manticore fires D3 shots a turn which averages to 2, so the manticore kicks out 2 shots to a basilisks 1 until turn 4. I find the game to usually be decided already by turn turn 4, I don't know how much more valuable 2 more basilisks shots will be.

If you're trying to make a pt for pt comparrison, than the two are about equal vs marinse in cover. But the manti is also better at instant killing T5, breaking all armor, and splashing armor if the blast drifts off.

But I usually find my biggest constraining resource to be heavy support choices and rounds of shooting, not points. So in any given round, per heavy slot the manticore is the superior choice against marines in cover which I find to be the most common target.

A vendetta is better until about AV13, the manitore is clearly better against AV14, especially tanks with weaker side armor.

The vanquisher is just not a good tank. 3 hits a game (and that's being generous) that's 1.5 pens against AV14, that's not even reliably killing one tank out of cover. All for a pretty expensive model that eats up a heavy support slot.

alarmingrick wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

JamesMclaren123 wrote:

if your using Barrage weapons for anti tank there is somthing wrong. and personally i would much rather take str 9 ap3 than str 10 ap 4 against hords and MEQs

There's always something wrong. If your opponent knows how to play a mechanized army, he's providing cover saves by blocking his rear vehicles with front vehicles. If you use Ordnance Barrage weapons firing indirectly, so they won't get coversaves. This literally doubles the weapon's effectiveness. Furthermore, many AV14 vehicles (Battle Wagon, Russ tanks) have better Front armor than Side armor, and Ordnance Barrage hits side armor. On a Battle Wagon, you're penetrating on a 3+ versus a 5+. That also doubles the weapon's effectiveness.

So a S10 Ordnance Barrage weapon is 4x as effective against a Battle Wagon as a S10 shot hitting front armor on an obscured target.

i see your point but a few inches this way or that way bam str5 i would much rather a vanquicsher personally.

The manticores 2 shots does more damage against marines in cover than basilisks 1. Plus it's the best option for long range raider busting.

thats all well and good but in the 2 manticore shots you will have had 2 basalisk shots the manticore only fires one rocket a turn.
in addition a vanquisher and vendetta are both better than the manticore for long range tank busting

You do know that 'one rocket' can give you 3 pie plates, right?

Ah I knew there was somthing i was missing.

Using barage weapons for anti tank isn't that bad, you have a 1/3 hcance of a hit as opposed to 1/2.

If the drift is low you still might hit. And if you fire a barrage, even if you miss with the first shot, as long as it scatters less then 5 from your target, a hit is still possible with a second blast.

I've run a trio of Basilisks a couple times, and it's run to watch your opponents face as you walk the shots back onto target after an initial miss.