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Mannahnin wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will say the next part as clear as i can....

IT IS A GAME, A GAME, NOTHING MORE, WINNING OR LOSING BY FAIR MEANS OR FOUL WILL HAVE NO EFFECT ON YOUR SAD, PATHETIC SEXLESS LIFE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

Well, you've already had your hat handed to you by a nice, well-written 13 year old, but I thought it might bear thinking about that the same rationale can also be applied to forum discussions. IT'S A FORUM THREAD, JUST A THREAD, NOTHING MORE. YELLING OR BERATING OTHER POSTERS WON'T MAKE YOU LOOK MORE MANLY OR MATURE THAN THE PEOPLE YOU CALL SAD OR PATHETIC.

Let's keep it all in perspective, shall we? Sometimes someone gets emotional and posts something a bit too heated, but that doesn't excuse others doing the same. Two wrongs not making a right and all that, 'eh chaps?

Was he really 13? I doubt you are so shallow as to take that as read.
If you are, im actually your long long lost brother and i need 1 million bucks to stop aliens killing me.

muwhe wrote:Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

If you look at top tournaments, plenty of people bicker with other players, slow play, call the judge an unnecessary number of times, "forget" things, or blatantly attempt to cheat, people with a WAAC attitude exist at every level of the game. I would give the kid a talking to AND ban him for X number of tournaments. You could even be "evil" and make him verify army lists for the next years worth of tournaments to lift the ban.

Brother Ramses wrote:"I am a kid and didt know that cheating was wrong!!"

So the kid cheats to win prizes? How many prizes has he actually won?

I doubt he has won any.

Deleting some off-topic persnal bickering from the thread.

Let's not make it personal, folks. Reading into people's positions to infer some sort of negative assessment of them as people is rude and inappropriate. It's a violation of Dakka rules, as well as a bad tactic in an argument, as it never convinces anyone.


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GBDarkAngel wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Well, you've already had your hat handed to you by a nice, well-written 13 year old, but I thought it might bear thinking about that the same rationale can also be applied to forum discussions. IT'S A FORUM THREAD, JUST A THREAD, NOTHING MORE. YELLING OR BERATING OTHER POSTERS WON'T MAKE YOU LOOK MORE MANLY OR MATURE THAN THE PEOPLE YOU CALL SAD OR PATHETIC.

Let's keep it all in perspective, shall we? Sometimes someone gets emotional and posts something a bit too heated, but that doesn't excuse others doing the same. Two wrongs not making a right and all that, 'eh chaps?

Was he really 13? I doubt you are so shallow as to take that as read.
If you are, im actually your long long lost brother and i need 1 million bucks to stop aliens killing me.

You don't think that there are teenagers posting on here? Literate, polite 13 year olds who enjoy these games and who might be motivated to post in a thread where someone their age is being called out publicly as a cheater? As a quick factual note, there are certainly teenagers posting on Dakka, and I personally remember very well how interested I was as a teenage gamer when teenage gamers came up in discussion, or when they were negatively characterized.

Brother Ramses wrote:First of all trying to inject the Note on Secrecy debate into this thread is laughable. You couldn't even point to any RAW that supported identifying squads by how they were equipped or the RAW that supported the stance that models had to be displayed on the table when not in play.

You claimed you played secrecy in tourneys... how did it work out for you in this one? You have your own rigid interpretation of the rules which conflict with a large number of other players... so I question your ability to judge cheating verses different rule interpretations...

My goal for this tournament ended in round 3 when I lost. I had grand visions of getting to play Blackmoor which ended with that loss. The only prize supported I wanted was the Best Sportsman which was three boxes of WGTDA. My loss was to the person that won Best Sportsman and he practically oozed it all over the table so it was completely warranted.

Wanting to play Blackmoor is admirable... somehow playing to win 'best sport' pretty clearly shows the concept escapes you if you think you have to strive for it or think you can game the game to win it. Suspicious at your own motivations.

List babysitting a know cheater is not part of the game. If you want to do that in a friendly game, feel free. In a tournament where the matches are determined by pairings and win/loss, getting paired to someone that needs to be babysat through a game is crap.

It sure as heck is part of the game if he hasn't broken any rules that the TO has disqualified him. If you want to play in the tourney then you do have to list babysit him. 'Known cheater' is a relative term and going into a game with the attitude the person is cheating shows a complete lack of sportsmanship. It is up to the TO who is allowed to play, and if he says you list babysit him to continue in the tourney then you list babysit him. You don't get to make unsubstantiated claims to pre-disqualify people you don't want to play so you get a better shot at winning SWAG.

I have my broom and declare shenanigans on this entire situation until I hear confirmation from the TO or other participants.

hell, I've been gaming since I was 9 (16 now) and I can say that I have never knowingly cheated. I have garnered somewhat of a reputation of forgetting things or not saying what I am thinking. e.g. forgetting to actually role to wound after hitting, or why did I just pick up the 4 when shooting with my lootas. However, I always reroll anything I screw up.

There is a large difference between that and purposefully changing stats to help you win. (and i still think it's all ork players who are forgetful not just me)

"Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."


I've had many kids cheat in school and a 'talking to' rarely works. In fact that would be the best possible punishment as it means they can try again in a few weeks.

Spell out the consequences before the event in person so there is no misunderstanding. Now this is the most important part - Make sure you stick to those consequences - no grey area. When they realise you are serious, it won't happen again.

As a side note I have found that to many specific rules can backfire. When kids know where the boundary line is they will walk right up to it from the get go. Make the rules vague - like improper play will not be tolerated. That way they won't be sure what falls under improper play and they will tend to toe the line since the boundaries are fuzzy. That tends to help alot.

nkelsch wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:First of all trying to inject the Note on Secrecy debate into this thread is laughable. You couldn't even point to any RAW that supported identifying squads by how they were equipped or the RAW that supported the stance that models had to be displayed on the table when not in play.

You claimed you played secrecy in tourneys... how did it work out for you in this one? You have your own rigid interpretation of the rules which conflict with a large number of other players... so I question your ability to judge cheating verses different rule interpretations...

My goal for this tournament ended in round 3 when I lost. I had grand visions of getting to play Blackmoor which ended with that loss. The only prize supported I wanted was the Best Sportsman which was three boxes of WGTDA. My loss was to the person that won Best Sportsman and he practically oozed it all over the table so it was completely warranted.

Wanting to play Blackmoor is admirable... somehow playing to win 'best sport' pretty clearly shows the concept escapes you if you think you have to strive for it or think you can game the game to win it. Suspicious at your own motivations.

List babysitting a know cheater is not part of the game. If you want to do that in a friendly game, feel free. In a tournament where the matches are determined by pairings and win/loss, getting paired to someone that needs to be babysat through a game is crap.

It sure as heck is part of the game if he hasn't broken any rules that the TO has disqualified him. If you want to play in the tourney then you do have to list babysit him. 'Known cheater' is a relative term and going into a game with the attitude the person is cheating shows a complete lack of sportsmanship. It is up to the TO who is allowed to play, and if he says you list babysit him to continue in the tourney then you list babysit him. You don't get to make unsubstantiated claims to pre-disqualify people you don't want to play so you get a better shot at winning SWAG.

I have my broom and declare shenanigans on this entire situation until I hear confirmation from the TO or other participants.

You might want to go back and check how I played and my entire stance on the Note on Secrecy. I follow it to the letter. You claiming that I must tell you how the squads are equipped is not identifying the squads, that is telling you their composition. For your information, after handing over my list I told my opponent that my GH packs right shoulder pad, atched the shouldepad on their Rhino, and I then placed the wold standard bearer with matching shoulderpad on top of the Rhino. Every single player said something akin to,

"Cool you painted them all to match their transports."

Not a single one went onto to whine and cry for squad composition.

You shoud probably go back and read the threads on this subject again as it is your argument that everyone and their mother is just waiting to play the swithceroo, even if you have never played them. It is your side that argues that everyone is just waiting for the chance to play a shell game.

That is not the case here. This kid has cheated, before this GT and now at a GT. Complete strangers warned me before I had ever even known the kid. Complete strangers that knew the IG codex betterand then I were calling him for crap from the side of the table. His own father called him on trying toto swap out athe tank for another in the middle of the game. The kid confirmed it through the game at at the end when he tried to add an objective to the table. He has confirmed it again with the GT. That is a known cheater. If he is in a another tournament the TO has to either kick him from it or make someone available to judge tableside every action he takes because the TO is letting a known cheater play. Babysitting a known cheater is the job of the TO that decided to let him play, not the random gamer that gets paired with him.

Working to get Best Sportsman is not a good thing now? Dash just did it despite his know drama record. And the funny thing is you don't know me for jack so you have no idea about my table manners. I maxxed on sportsmanship this tournament and agreed that the guy who got it was more then deservong of it. It was like playing a fluffy bunny with Red Thirst and Blood Talons. So playing to get best sportsman is from the what you are trying to make it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man my phone craps out some messed up spelling.

Brother Ramses wrote:

You might want to go back and check how I played and my entire stance on the Note on Secrecy. I follow it to the letter. You claiming that I must tell you how the squads are equipped is not identifying the squads, that is telling you their composition. For your information, after handing over my list I told my opponent that my GH packs right shoulder pad, atched the shouldepad on their Rhino, and I then placed the wold standard bearer with matching shoulderpad on top of the Rhino. Every single player said something akin to,

"Cool you painted them all to match their transports."

Not a single one went onto to whine and cry for squad composition.

and if they had asked, you would have been obligated to distinguish the unit composition for them. Fully disclosing your list to them pre-game probably made this unnessesary. If you would have refused to disclose, I would have reported you to the TO. See how your 'valid interpretation' quickly can become someone else saying 'Hey TO, this guy is a cheater.'

You shoud probably go back and read the threads on this subject again as it is your argument that everyone and their mother is just waiting to play the swithceroo, even if you have never played them. It is your side that argues that everyone is just waiting for the chance to play a shell game.

Full disclosure... If you exchanged lists, then you fully disclosed... How you can claim you didn't fully disclose is beyond me.

That is not the case here. This kid has cheated, before this GT and now at a GT. Complete strangers warned me before I had ever even known the kid. Complete strangersstrangers that knewI the IGstandard codex betterand then Ito were callingequipped him forand crap fromwith the sidegame of thethe table. His ownhead father calledwas him onand trying toto swap out athe tank for anotherfinal in thea middle of ourthe game. The kid confirmed it through the game at at the end when he tried to add an objective to the table. He has confirmed it again with the GT. That is a known cheater. If he is in a another tournament the TO has to either kick him from it or make someone available to judge tableside every action he takes because the TO is letting a known cheater play. Babysitting a known cheater is the job of the TO that decided to let him play, not the random gamer that gets paired with him.

Not knowing his rules does not make him a cheater.
Forgetting his stats does not make him a cheater.
If he makes mistakes, you correct the mistakes. If he had made it through 3 games without being disqualified, I declare FLGS drama on you and your people so-called warning you... You were just annoyed having to play someone you felt was too inexperienced to play against and are making his 'mistakes' blatant cheating. You had $$ in your eyes and are now angry because you blame him for losing your cash.

All of his 'mistakes or lies' were easily corrected, the games don't lose integrity, and sometimes you have to 'list babysit' an inexperienced player in a tourney where you may know their rules better than them. If there was an issue, tell the TO... Obviously the TO didn't feel the errors or cheating was offensive enough to eject the person... I have yet to see anything that shows that it was. Your attitude reeks of intolerance, powergaming and your past way you interpret rules and strive to game sportsmanship makes me suspicious of your whole impression of this kid. May be be inexperienced? sure... should he be banned from tourneys or should tourneys have minimal skill levels to participate? absolutely not. I have a feeling, your story and the TO don't mesh...

Working to get Best Sportsman is not a good thing now? Dash just did it despite his know drama record. And the funny thing is you don't know me for jack so you have no idea about my table manners. I maxxed on sportsmanship this tournament and agreed that the guy who got it was more then deservong of it. It was like playing a fluffy bunny with Red Thirst and Blood Talons. So playing to get best sportsman is from the what you are trying to make it.

Dash won at Nova because he was being himself and his opponents enjoyed playing him. He didn't blow smoke and rainbows up people's asses with the expectation of maximizing points to claim swag. He happened to hit 8 opponents who enjoyed his personality and demeanor... the day before he hit someone who did not enjoy playing him... Dash didn't strive to change the way he was at NOVA to win a prize... No one should. The simple act of trying to game sportsmanship to win a prize shows a total lack of sportsmanship. Using demeaning terms like 'fluff bunny' is probably also not the best way to be considered a 'good sport'...You don't need to bring a weak list and lose games to be a good sport. True good sports are good sports whether they are losing badly or crushing your skull in.

I've played the kid in a tournament before.. Not fun.

The kid does know the rules, and he does know his stats. When you correct him on things continually and his most common retort is "oh yeah"... Thats cheating. After two years of playing imperial guard and not remembering they hit on a 4+? cheating. He does swap around models mid game or mid tournament, one game he has heavy bolters.. The next they're lascannons. One game a hellhound, the next a banewolf, and now back to a hellhound. Cheating.


If you want to argue with the op and stick up for the kid just for the sake of arguing, thats fine. But that kid does blatantly cheat any chance he gets. Playing him is a miserable experience, you won't lose but it will completely suck the fun out of the afternoon. I don't enjoy crushing kids in the first place, I definitely don't like crushing cheating little kids and then having to explain to their dad why the kid shouldn't be tagging along for tournaments. Its a crap experience for everyone.

I mean, break it down at the minimum. Who gets to have a crappy time because of 1 kid?
3 opponents
The kid
The Dad
The tournament organizer.

Thats 6 people at a minimum who either have a crap game, or a uncomfortable conversation just because one kid can't control himself and his dad obviously can't instill good habits into his kid.

Another store on the other side of town had a kid that would literally cry during games he was losing. I didn't have to play him, but witnessed it on 2 occasions in 2 different tournaments. How much does it suck to be the guy playing against that? Meanwhile, dad is on the other side of the room gaming away.

I'm all for kids gaming. It's great. I started at 8 years old and have been playing for the last 22. I've been playing competitively for the last 12 or so... But the ones who come with parents and act like jerks all weekend and the parents do nothing about it, well that sucks to be around.

I attended this tournament and played the kid in question. It was my first experience with him, and I was not warned beforehand, so I treated it like any other game. I took a quick look at his list, read any rules I wasn't familiar with off of the army builder and asked him to identify to me what was what as he deployed it. I didn't look at the army builder list he gave me until the end of the game from that point on as I did not expect to be lied to. He had 5 or 6 chimera's with guard in them, a bunch of conscripts, a manticore, and some leman russes. It turns out that all of the guard had no heavy weapons, but he shot lascannons every turn from each squad. It also turns out the leman russes did not have heavy bolter sponsons, but he also used those every turn. I was able to win on the mission objective, but it was disappointing to learn later that I had a much rougher game than I should have, and probably got a lot less victory points due to his increased firepower on my paper planes (Dark Eldar).

Besides that I also noticed that he rolled out of sight a lot, and even when I asked him to roll where I could clearly see he would still revert to behind his tanks on important rolls. I can't say for sure that he lied about what he rolled, so I won't accuse him of that. He was also very eager to claim cover on pretty much anything (regular guardsmen standing in front of leman russes) and very argumentative whenever I would ask for cover. Overall it was not a very pleasant game and I probably would not look forward to playing him again, but the game didn't ruin my overall experience at the GT or anything.

Quick get a rope and head to the nearest tree!

If this kid cheats then the problem in with him, not the parent.

Now, I don't know how many on here are parents themselves, but as a dad I will tell you this, kids will act in a deceitful manner any time such an action will benefit them. (As a minor, the TO handled the matter correctly by bringing the matter to the dad, but it is still your reponsibility to act/highlight what has happened, or at least under UK Child Protection Laws. Kids have more rights than us now!)

Punishing the parents will not change this basic facet of their worldview. I've taught my kids right from wrong, but I still wouldn't put it past them to cheat, if they thought they could get away with it. In this case, I feel that the child knows that his opponents won't call him out directly on this, reverting to the TO/father approach.

Complaining about it on this forum won't change anything.

Cheers

Andrew

Mundar, if what is on the table doesn't match his list or it changes frequently... What is the TO doing? Is no one enforcing wysiwyg? I am not saying he is fun to play against, but if he makes a mistake, you correct him. If he is changing models on the table, then you report that to the TO that his models don't match his list.

I dunno... Sounds like the main problem with your tourney is the lack of wysiwyg or enforcing of it... If the list had no sponsons, his tanks are not wysiwyg. Does this GT allow proxies? If so... Then it is on you to list babysit over modeled options... If the tourney is wysiwyg then the TO needs to enforce that.

I hear lots of unpleasantness... But nothing that can't be controlled by being vigilant and on top of the game.

That store rarely enforces wysiwyg. I'm not sure if they did for their GT.. But for their monthly ones, they do not. I believe it's because a lot of their player base is new to the game, so may still be finding their feet as far as army building goes.

Generally, proxies are whatever and 99% of the time not a problem. But I guess one rotten apple spoils them all.

The kid usually makes his changes from game to game. Playing against bugs or orks, break out heavy bolters. Marines? Plasma and lascannons for everyone.

Mundar wrote:That store rarely enforces wysiwyg. I'm not sure if they did for their GT.. But for their monthly ones, they do not. I believe it's because a lot of their player base is new to the game, so may still be finding their feet as far as army building goes.

Generally, proxies are whatever and 99% of the time not a problem. But I guess one rotten apple spoils them all.

The kid usually makes his changes from game to game. Playing against bugs or orks, break out heavy bolters. Marines? Plasma and lascannons for everyone.

If they are not enforcing wysiwyg, then it is your job to be list babysitting all opponents because it sounds like there is a lack of expectation for wysiwyg... If they are not going to be upfront with proxies, then you have to protect yourself. If he puts over modeled sponsons on the table and/or swaps in army specific weapons, and the venue doesn't enforce wysiwyg then it is on you to look at the list and call him on the proxies and remind him when he deviates from his list.

It may be unpleasant, but very hard to call people using proxies 'cheaters' if they forget what they are proxying. I feel a tourney is unplayable with proxies and this is a good example why. All you can do is give your TO feedback of how you would correct the issue and suffer through unpleasant games. Allowing proxies is opening the door to gaming confusion and not having wysiwyg models keeping players clear and honest. Strict wysiwyg sounds like it would solve a lot of this events issues.

nkelsch wrote:Mundar, if what is on the table doesn't match his list or it changes frequently... What is the TO doing? Is no one enforcing wysiwyg? I am not saying he is fun to play against, but if he makes a mistake, you correct him. If he is changing models on the table, then you report that to the TO that his models don't match his list.

I dunno... Sounds like the main problem with your tourney is the lack of wysiwyg or enforcing of it... If the list had no sponsons, his tanks are not wysiwyg. Does this GT allow proxies? If so... Then it is on you to list babysit over modeled options... If the tourney is wysiwyg then the TO needs to enforce that.

I hear lots of unpleasantness... But nothing that can't be controlled by being vigilant and on top of the game.

You seem to not really grasp the concept of WYSIWYG

The wording of the rule points you in the direction that if you choose to represent optional equipment on a model it must be visually represented on the model. If the kid does not pay for heavy bolters on a his Leman Russes for instance, he is not obligated by WYIWYG to remove them from his model. What this kid relies on is his opponent not fact checking his every move, shoot, and assault against his list, which is how normal players playing this game play.



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Basically what I mean is it is like my Grey Hunters. They come standard with ccw/bp/bolter but I am not obligated to represent all of them. However if I give one a melta I need to model it. If I choose not to use that melta next game, the rule does not really obligate you to visually represent the melta not being used.

Sounds like a tough call for the TO to make. On one hand the kid is only 13, and lets be honest most kids in that age bracket (that I know of) want to win more then learn and play by the rules. However that doesn't excuse his behavior. I'd issue a 1 tournament ban and a 1 year probation. If his behavior continued I'd just inform his father that his son was no longer welcome in tournament play until such a time as he willing to play by the same standards and practices as others.

NecronDestroyerLord wrote:Sounds like a tough call for the TO to make. On one hand the kid is only 13, and lets be honest most kids in that age bracket (that I know of) want to win more then learn and play by the rules. However that doesn't excuse his behavior. I'd issue a 1 tournament ban and a 1 year probation. If his behavior continued I'd just inform his father that his son was no longer welcome in tournament play until such a time as he willing to play by the same standards and practices as others.

That is the basic consensus among the everyone that has had problems with this individual. Some action needs to be taken is what the majority of people feel.

I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

muwhe wrote:Wow. The kid is 13 years old. Someone should spend some quality time with the kid and enforce the importance and value of playing the game with integrity over the value of “winning”. Sounds like a good opportunity to have a positive impact on a kid and do some hobby mentoring ..

After reading some of these comments, I can't help but think that I have been a little complicit in his activities by taking a laissez-faire attitude in my games with him. I know all the stats, and I have time to glance at his army list, so I should take a more proactive role in stopping his bad behaviors and correcting them when I see them. I can beat him no matter what he pulls so I have not cared that much, but for the greater good I need to help everyone out by helping this kid learn good sportsmanship, and a win is meaningless if you do it by cheating.

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Corrode wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I will let you guys argue this one out as it seems Mannahnin and Brother Ramses are friends and posts are being edited or deleted if they dont suit the OP.

I will point out though that although i dont do it myself i would not object to an opponent swapping out weapons battle to battle, (not turn to turn though) as when an army goes to battle it does not just take the bare essentials, it takes what it needs for the job.
As long as the points are within the limit and he tells me what he has if its not WYSIWYG then i have no issues.

Happily your personal feelings don't matter at all because within the context of most tournaments changing your list from game to game is actually against the rules, hence the problem presented by the OP. On top of that the kid actually isn't within the points limit because he presents a legal list to an opponent and then uses upgrades which are not on it.

I'm getting the strong impression you're a casual player who doesn't participate in competitive games - that's fine, more power to you, I'm sure you're having fun. Just like how you probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you to optimise this and replace X because Y is strictly better, though, nobody wants to hear what you think is appropriate for tournament play when you don't participate yourself.

Yeh you are 100% correct. Well almost.
I have a couple of tournaments coming up. One this saturday and shifts allowing one at the start of October.
So i guess you really havent a clue what your on about.

As for rules.......
A wise man once said "Rules are for wise men to use as guidelines and fools to follow".
Not that hard to see where you fall in.

Not sure why you are trying to make this thread about you GBDarkAngel? I look forward to your AAR for the two tournaments you have coming up because you sound like an awesome fellow!

Anyway back OT, It seems that TO did as much as he could do without kicking the kid out of the premises (and therefore the dad).

However speaking as a parent I am a little surprised that the Father didn't pull the kid out of the tournament and withdraw himself. I appreciate that there is a financial element ($30 entry each?) to consider but I think in his shoes I would be mortified that my progeny would behave this way after a previous event and prior warning by many in the current event. Then got Junior back home for a full debriefing/kick up the arse.

True it ruins the Dad's tourney through no fault of his own but unfortunately that comes with parental responsibility IMO.

I'm pretty sure that the shame of ruining his Dads day would have been more than enough to set the kid on the right course or at least start him on it.

notprop wrote:Not sure why you are trying to make this thread about you GBDarkAngel? I look forward to your AAR for the two tournaments you have coming up because you sound like an awesome fellow!

You couldnt be further from the truth, its some selective editing and deleting by Mannahnin that has made it look that way.

If you are going to edit something to make it read in a very different light then you should just delete the whole post.

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

"Big bully boy"... You’re missing the point! The kid is a cheater! Why are you defending him? Regardless of his or the tournament style or your ability to beat him even with his cheating, it still a mater of principle. It doesn't matter what the prizes were, the motivation is irrelevant. You enter the tourney with no guarantee that you’ll walk away with anything. (different than expectation)
Secondly, those who continue to beat up the OP, when he is not the cheater is misplaced. According to several others, this kid is widely known as a cheater, not a rule “forgetter”. Quit making excuses for him and hold him responcible.

GBDA - You continue to blame the "victim" for the crimes of the "offender" - I use these terms in its most general sense, not as a personal characterization. I do not know any of the folks in question, but excusing bad behavior is wrong. This kind of thinking has already gotten him to believe that cheating is acceptable. Always someone elses fault. This kid is not a victim! I suspect that if the OP was a cheater this thread would have died on page one and that everyone would have call him on it and would expect he would be facing the same scrutiny, ridicule and or punishment.

Some of the comments on this thread that supports "as long as you don't get caught is ok" is irreprehensible, unprincipled and so wrong. I agree this TO needs to tighten the event rules and more actively enforce them but I support the personal responcibility is the key to turning this around.

"exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game. " What a narrow minded outlook. Not to mention SAD! Why not both for the prize and the fun. How shallow and disappointing of a comment.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
You seem to not really grasp the concept of WYSIWYG

The wording of the rule points you in the direction that if you choose to represent optional equipment on a model it must be visually represented on the model. If the kid does not pay for heavy bolters on a his Leman Russes for instance, he is not obligated by WYIWYG to remove them from his model. What this kid relies on is his opponent not fact checking his every move, shoot, and assault against his list, which is how normal players playing this game play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what I mean is it is like my Grey Hunters. They come standard with ccw/bp/bolter but I am not obligated to represent all of them. However if I give one a melta I need to model it. If I choose not to use that melta next game, the rule does not really obligate you to visually represent the melta not being used.

In tourneys it does, and when a event is 100% WYSIWYG it does. If you are allowing overmodeling or meltas to be missile launchers those are PROXIES. Sponsons are optional equipment so the LACK of them must be represented on the model. Also, swaping a heavy bolter for a lascannon is also optional equipment. If you are not using a melta next game, for you to be WYSIWYG that melta better be in your case... You can't overmodel your whole army and claim WYSIWYG. Saying "the rules don't say I can't overmodel" doesn't make it legal.

If an event allows proxies, than you have to constantly watch your opponent and compare his models to a list. Which is fine in friendly play but oppressive and fosters cheating or at least misunderstandings in competative events. This event sounds like it is poorly run if it allows proxies, and the players all seem to be at fault for basically rolling over and not confronting this kid. It is really easy to correct his point values and hold his models on the table to the models on his list. If the kid beat you from these 'cheats' and you never called him on it, the integrity of the game is intact because you never said anything or reported it to the TO.

Ramses wants him banned before ever playing him for 'confirmed cheating' which sounds more like unconfirmed mistakes no one had the balls to actually correct him on. Those who did correct him frequently had an unpleasant game but finished the game.

Between the lack of understanding of WYSIWYG, Proxies, Secrecy shenanigans and spineless people who conspire in forums instead of simply correcting the behavior mid-game, sounds like an environment that promotes cheating to me.

The event was ran pretty flawless except for the incident with this kid. Eliminate what this kid did and has done, there is nothing wrong with the event at all. You are trying to misdirect the blame from the kid to the event, but here is what shuts down your argument,

No one else was using your percieved lack of WYSIWYG to cheat.

Everyone else at the tournament was not doing what this kid was doing. They were playing the game fair and from what I understand from talking with the TO, there was one rules dispute during the game he personally needed to make a call on, and this incident with the kid.

So the idea that this event and organizer encouraged this behavior is crap. This kid has done it before, been corrected and now has done it again. He is a cheater and needs a break from tournament play as a consequence.

Solar_lion wrote:

All this thread is about is a Big Bully Boy that has thrown his dummy out the pram because he didnt win a prize and is now looking to blame someone for this.

I have asked the same question 3 times (deleted 3 times also.)
How many prizes has this kid actually won over the past couple of years he has been playing (or cheating as the OP would have us believe)?

There was also a comment by the OP a page or so back where he went on that the TO prize support was amazing etc..
It seems there was around $300 of prizes up for grabs....
50 players @ $50 = $2500 minus $300 = $2200 in the TO's pocket. Its probably more as he will be buying the stock at 49%.
I think if the OP took a step or two back and looked at the big picture he would see exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game.

"Big bully boy"... You’re missing the point! The kid is a cheater! Why are you defending him? Regardless of his or the tournament style or your ability to beat him even with his cheating, it still a mater of principle. It doesn't matter what the prizes were, the motivation is irrelevant. You enter the tourney with no guarantee that you’ll walk away with anything. (different than expectation)
Secondly, those who continue to beat up the OP, when he is not the cheater is misplaced. According to several others, this kid is widely known as a cheater, not a rule “forgetter”. Quit making excuses for him and hold him responcible.

GBDA - You continue to blame the "victim" for the crimes of the "offender" - I use these terms in its most general sense, not as a personal characterization. I do not know any of the folks in question, but excusing bad behavior is wrong. This kind of thinking has already gotten him to believe that cheating is acceptable. Always someone elses fault. This kid is not a victim! I suspect that if the OP was a cheater this thread would have died on page one and that everyone would have call him on it and would expect he would be facing the same scrutiny, ridicule and or punishment.

Some of the comments on this thread that supports "as long as you don't get caught is ok" is irreprehensible, unprincipled and so wrong. I agree this TO needs to tighten the event rules and more actively enforce them but I support the personal responcibility is the key to turning this around.

"exactly why these tournaments are organised and its not for the fun and friendship of the game. " What a narrow minded outlook. Not to mention SAD! Why not both for the prize and the fun. How shallow and disappointing of a comment.

Your missing the point, i am not defending him.
We have no corrobarated proof that he is a cheat.
All we have is an OP who says he is and has been for the past few years and everyones knows.

Ok, so answer me this.
If he was a cheat then why is he still allowed to enter these competitions?
If you were the TO and you knew this guy was a cheat would you allow him to enter without a judge scrutinising his every move? Of course you wouldnt as it would harm your tournaments rep.
3 pages into a thread and no one has even thought to question that. You say i am narrow minded, you are the one that is narrow minded.
You only had to read his post carefully to see the father, the TO etc were all just smoke and mirrors.
You see, even if the kid did cheat it did not affect the OP in any way. Neither did it affect the final prize standings.
What we have however is a form of asymmetric dominance in that the only issue is the OP failed to win or gain a prize and is attempting to make everyone believe that it was this kids fault.
It wasnt anyones fault apart from the OP's, he wasnt good enough over the 2 days, he wasnt put off his game in any way either.
What he is attempting to do is use this incident in order to either get a refund, get free entry into the next one or both and that is plain and simple and that is where the asymmetric dominance comes into play.
The Kid in question might well be a cheat, but what we also know though is that the OP is an incredibly bad loser so we need to take an objective look at the original post and not fall into the smoke and mirrors trap.

Hasn't there like, been a few people from this "club" who have agreed with OP, and even one who said he wasn't sure but now feels his attitude of "it's ok" has possibly contributed?

See, if it was just the OP on a crusade, I could agree with nkelsch and GBDarkAngel.

But it isn't.

Brother Ramses wrote:The event was ran pretty flawless except for the incident with this kid. Eliminate what this kid did and has done, there is nothing wrong with the event at all. You are trying to misdirect the blame from the kid to the event, but here is what shuts down your argument,

No one else was using your percieved lack of WYSIWYG to cheat.

and no one was watching his proxies to keep him honest. They let him cheat with no confronting him and then came to the internet to claim they had money stolen from them.

All you have to do is be aware the event allows proxies and say 'that is not a missile launcher on your list here...' or 'you didn't buy the sponson upgrades'.

Everyone else at the tournament was not doing what this kid was doing. They were playing the game fair and from what I understand from talking with the TO, there was one rules dispute during the game he personally needed to make a call on, and this incident with the kid.

needing a rules dispute called doesn't make him a cheater... if you would have refused to fully disclose your units in your transports, i would have needed the TO to make a call... doesn't mean you are necessarily a cheater.

So the idea that this event and organizer encouraged this behavior is crap. This kid has done it before, been corrected and now has done it again. He is a cheater and needs a break from tournament play as a consequence.

Or maybe he is a child and you are intolerant of inexperienced players or children in general. Seems like it is up to the TO to decide who may or may not continue to play in his events... not you making an internet lynch mob to get your way because you feel like you were wronged out of prize support.

All I hear are easily corrected mistakes that might be intentional, but still are easily corrected. The kid sounds unpleasant to play against, but if you correct his stats, hold him to what is on his list and make him play by the rules, he isn't cheating... just an unpleasant opponent. If it is really that bad of an impact, then let the TO handle it. It seems like the kid 'cheats' because so many of the other people at the event roll their eyes and ignore his actions and allow him to do it. If every adult in the room constantly read his list and stats to him and never let him get away with anything, he would not be able to get away with it. Other people have noted he is annoying and tries things, but they all say 'I let the behavior happen' or 'I corrected the behavior and things moved forward.'

It is really up to the TO and the store owner. If you really don't want to play this kid, then abstain from events run by this TO or include this kid. You are the adult and can totally decide what you do with your time.