Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I disagree. The communist revolution in China was not the product of a moral crisis.

i'm not saying that moral crisis causes the Communist revolution. i'm saying that the failure of Sun Yat Sen's revolution (to remove any form of Feudalism) is a reason that rally folks into Mao's banner.

But that "feudalism" was incredibly successful for thousands of years. Dr. Sun, or rather Jiang Jieshi's, particular failure with regard to modernizing Chinese culture seems like more of symptom than a cause. But I actually don't totally understand what you were saying about the changes in Chinese culture.

I must of missed it, but where was this childs parents at? I know for damn sure, when my kids were 2, they werent more then 10 feet away from me ever. And this one was in a street, run over, and then ignored by 18 people before she was helped? How long did this take?


And 2 cars ran her over?!?

The parents were in their shop; the girl wandered out into the alley while they were working. They said they blame themselves and that not all people are bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingCracker wrote:How long did this take?

Seven minutes.

I personally dont think people are bad, even the ones that walked by ignoring the child. I wouldnt do that, and would hope someone would help my kids if they ever needed it, but I do understand that most people are afraid to help out for a million reasons


That sucks for that family though, thats a guilt you wouldnt be able to shake

Lone Cat wrote:i'm not saying that moral crisis causes the Communist revolution. i'm saying that the failure of Sun Yat Sen's revolution (to remove any form of Feudalism) is a reason that rally folks into Mao's banner.

That is incorrect. Sun Yat Sen is recognize by both China and Taiwan as still the father / creator.
China's general populace has always been poor. While he was revolting to change China's state, the general population rather follow the temptation of communist ideas.
( cant blame them, if it means having a next meal ). This is how Taiwan is born, we are pretty much the Chinese that followed his original dream and ideals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's like one verse in there about helping strangers. Guess that kind of gets buried in the rest of it.

China's culture is a....."luck" based one. They're real big on luck. Don't sweep on this day or you'll sweep away your good luck don't buy this on another or you'll bring in bad luck. Very heavily laden with superstition.

It stems for the more practical realization that doing housework at all is boring and should be avoided at all costs.

lol....... no.

Kamikaze, i actually know what you meant.

Chinese are very heavy in... you say superstition. But to us its beyond that. Its the study of astromancy combined with aligning energy ( or known as Fon Shui , spelling is probably wrong )
but yes, can be superstitious :'P

@LunaHound: At least according to Jiang Jieshi and his followers, right? Although these days, even PRC officials prefer the Guomindang over what else is in Taiwan.

Manchu wrote:@LunaHound: At least according to Jiang Jieshi and his followers, right? Although these days, even PRC officials prefer the Guomindang over what else is in Taiwan.

Unfortunately, this is true. And you know.... I don't think im the only one that noticed this but... the thing you just said, is pretty much the prelude of communist birth all over again.

Taiwanese people, they are lost. They have been lost ever since China openly engulfed the world market with their cheap labor.
There is no way we can compete with those 3 world wages, even our companies went over to China ( though the results varies greatly )
Needless to say Taiwan's economy HAS collapsed, and cannot sustain itself ( we are pretty much suffering from all the same reason why Japan tried to take over China back in WW2 )
We don't have enough natural resources to sustain ourselves economically, the only thing Taiwan did ( well they did great for awhile ) was exports ( electronics ). But there is no way we can compete against China.

So now as people grew poor ( or immigrate to other countries ) they are desperate. The current TW president Ma is a traitor.
a) He refers to Taiwan as R.o.C
b) When foreign delegates visits, he removed all Taiwanese flags.
c) Alot of the policy he opened between China and Taiwan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Cooperation_Framework_Agreement pretty much destroyed the only protection we had.

Now, what does the people of Taiwan have left? nothing. We'll end up joining China willingly if this course continues.
This is why the next election in January will decide Taiwan's fate.

So much for 不統, 不獨, 不武 ...

I would hope reunification would proceed more slowly -- but, on the other hand, perhaps it will help the Mainland transition more quickly?

Manchu wrote:So much for 不統, 不獨, 不武 ...

I would hope reunification would proceed more slowly -- but, on the other hand, perhaps it will help the Mainland transition more quickly?

Thats the thing Manchu, Its not fair lol. Taiwanese people DREAD communism. We took pride in our rights and freedom ( thats why we love Bush Senior )
to us, he protected us and that same ideal Americans always is proud of.
Anyways, we don't want reunification, but thats slowly become a possibility the reason as i mentioned.
BUT not because we are willing, but because Ma destroyed what possibilities we have left.

不統, 不獨, 不武

Is just an ideal, its not like we can ever stand against China, USA has been the only country keeping Taiwan safe
for the last... how many decades? a long time.

And lastly, this is Taiwanese mentality due to the fear of unknown. Because we never experienced communist ideas first hand,
we will blame every fault China has on it been communist xD (i mean when we cant find a logical explanation )

e.g This incident in this thread, or previous toxic products, contaminated food incidents etc etc. ( e.g a thread long back when i was debating with shumagorath )

LunaHound wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's like one verse in there about helping strangers. Guess that kind of gets buried in the rest of it.

China's culture is a....."luck" based one. They're real big on luck. Don't sweep on this day or you'll sweep away your good luck don't buy this on another or you'll bring in bad luck. Very heavily laden with superstition.

It stems for the more practical realization that doing housework at all is boring and should be avoided at all costs.

lol....... no.

I see your ability to spot obvious humor is as keen as ever. And for god's sake please stop referring to yourself as all Asian's, as you aren't "we" or "us". It makes you look a bit silly trying to pretend you are speak for all, and is a tad insulting as it implies everyone thinks the same.

Funny, I dont claim to speak for all anymore than Christians say they believe in Jesus. Despite im sure not all of them do.

If you find my post silly, feel free to put me on ignore :3

LunaHound wrote:Funny, I dont claim to speak for all anymore than Christians say they believe in Jesus. Despite im sure not all of them do.

If you find my post silly, feel free to put me on ignore :3

When you are speaking of them, you are using "we" and "us", inferring that they think the same as you.

No reason to put you on ignore..you're just wrong.

Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

LunaHound wrote:Funny, I dont claim to speak for all anymore

Go back and read what you wrote. You don't have to claim it overtly when you constantly refer to all Chinese as 'we'. You don't say, "in Chinese culture they love Big Trouble in Little China becuase Jack Burton is awesome", you say "we love Big Trouble in Little China becuase Jack Burton is awesome". You keep referring to yourself in the third person plural. I don't see how you do not realize you are doing this.

LunaHound wrote:than Christians say they believe in Jesus. Despite im sure not all of them do.

Most of the time they refer to their faith "My belief ect", and typically the times when it is referred to as a collective is just as problematic becuase the diversity of religious experience within Christianity is vast.

LunaHound wrote:If you find my post silly, feel free to put me on ignore :3

If I put you on ignore I would miss silly things like you saying that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Albatross wrote:Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

It is complicated and people write entire books on the subject, but ask yourself what it means to believe in Jesus, what is the nature of Jesus, and how do one express their devotion to him and his ideals. You will get radically different answers to each of those questions in different parts.

Ahtman I have to wonder whats a grown man such as yourself nitpicking my posts for. Surely you have better things to do.

Karon wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Funny, I dont claim to speak for all anymore than Christians say they believe in Jesus. Despite im sure not all of them do.

If you find my post silly, feel free to put me on ignore :3

When you are speaking of them, you are using "we" and "us", inferring that they think the same as you.

No reason to put you on ignore..you're just wrong.

Fair enough, I just find it faster to put "we" rather than " Me and 90% ofTaiwan"
but alright i'll take that into account.

Ahtman wrote:

Albatross wrote:Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

It is complicated and people write entire books on the subject, but ask yourself what it means to believe in Jesus, what is the nature of Jesus, and how do one express their devotion to him and his ideals. You will get radically different answers to each of those questions in different parts.

But surely the 'Christ' part is operative, meaning that those who identify as 'Christian' accept Jesus Christ as part of their faith? To put it another way, are there Christians who don't believe in Jesus in some form or another?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lunahound - How can you presume to speak for 90% of Taiwan? Because you're of Taiwanese extraction?

That seems a little grandiose.

Albatross wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Albatross wrote:Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

It is complicated and people write entire books on the subject, but ask yourself what it means to believe in Jesus, what is the nature of Jesus, and how do one express their devotion to him and his ideals. You will get radically different answers to each of those questions in different parts.

But surely the 'Christ' part is operative, meaning that those who identify as 'Christian' accept Jesus Christ as part of their faith? To put it another way, are there Christians who don't believe in Jesus in some form or another?

Depends on how you took my sentence.

For example I can be a Christian, yet deep inside i don't have to believe God exists or Jesus wasn't just a human being.

I'm pretty sure that such a person would not be a Christian.

LunaHound wrote:
For example I can be a Christian, yet deep inside i don't have to believe God exists or Jesus wasn't just a human being.

Yeah, to be a Christian you do have to believe in God, though you can probably get away with not believing in the divinity of Christ.

Can you be a vegetarian and willingly eat steak every day?

I don't see how that works.

Albatross wrote:I'm pretty sure that such a person would not be a Christian.

So its not possible for a converted atheist to be previously a Christian?

for example, maybe someone's family was a Christian all their live. And being the children, they go with the parents
to church, pray, etc etc. That doesn't mean he is fully christian without and within?

Albatross wrote:@Lunahound - How can you presume to speak for 90% of Taiwan? Because you're of Taiwanese extraction?
That seems a little grandiose.

Because its Taiwanese's belief, their pride. Its what they always wanted.

Same way when Americans loves their liberty freedom and democracy. ( sure some might not )
but I dont think you'll find anyone patriotic arguing against that. Am i right?

MY point was that the parameters of 'belief in Jesus' weren't limited to belief in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. 'Belief in Jesus' could mean belief in living by his teachings, belief in him as an historical figure etc.

The one thing all Christians have in common is belief in Jesus CHRIST as a figure of reverence, whatever shape that takes. I feel confident in saying that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:I'm pretty sure that such a person would not be a Christian.

So its not possible for a converted atheist to be previously a Christian?

It's completely possible. That person, however, would not currently be a Christian.

I thought that was obvious.

Albatross wrote:It's completely possible. That person, however, would not currently be a Christian.
I thought that was obvious.

Correct, how ever the time before the conversion, he is still considered a Christian.

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:@Lunahound - How can you presume to speak for 90% of Taiwan? Because you're of Taiwanese extraction?
That seems a little grandiose.

Because its Taiwanese's belief, their pride. Its what they always wanted.

How do you know that?

Same way when Americans loves their liberty freedom and democracy. ( sure some might not )
but I dont think you'll find anyone patriotic arguing against that. Am i right?

I don't even know what point you're trying to make, but I will say that the whole 'Americans loving freedom and liberty' thing is a platitude.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:It's completely possible. That person, however, would not currently be a Christian.
I thought that was obvious.

Correct, how ever the time before the conversion, he is still considered a Christian.

...and so would believe in Jesus, along with all the other Christians.

Albatross wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:@Lunahound - How can you presume to speak for 90% of Taiwan? Because you're of Taiwanese extraction?
That seems a little grandiose.

Because its Taiwanese's belief, their pride. Its what they always wanted.

How do you know that?

Same way when Americans loves their liberty freedom and democracy. ( sure some might not )
but I dont think you'll find anyone patriotic arguing against that. Am i right?

I don't even know what point you're trying to make, but I will say that the whole 'Americans loving freedom and liberty' thing is a platitude.

Hmm that's a shock really. Didn't think you would ignore the connection.

Albatross wrote:
...and so would believe in Jesus, along with all the other Christians.

I see... for you a Christian is someone that believes in Christ and only then can they be considered one.
I see it as possibly a mere title. e.g Like a communist wouldn't necessarily be willing to share everything.

There is no real connection, though. One is a lazy and meaningless national stereotype, the other is you claiming to speak for 90% of Taiwan.

dogma wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
For example I can be a Christian, yet deep inside i don't have to believe God exists or Jesus wasn't just a human being.

Yeah, to be a Christian you do have to believe in God, though you can probably get away with not believing in the divinity of Christ.

The number of things that can be broadly stated about Christianity is few, but a belief in a/the God is one of them. Now, there are at least 4 major different perspectives on what people believe what god is...

LunaHound wrote:
I see... for you a Christian is someone that believes in Christ and only then can they be considered one.
I see it as possibly a mere title. e.g Like a communist wouldn't necessarily be willing to share everything.

Yes, I'm one of those crazy people that assumes that words, when used, have the generally agreed meaning, and not just the meaning that the user finds convenient when back-peddling.