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Orkyclaus wrote:The reason why people don't stop to help is because they are afraid to be sued if something goes wrong. Blame people who sue for no reason.

before people get on their high horse it should be remembered, multiple states in the US had to enact Good Samaritan laws to protect bystanders who tried to help. Thank you again California.

But notice what we call those laws.

Isn't this just the bystander effect in practise? I mean we can rag on China all day but we had our Kitty Genovese too.

Also I'm suprised and happy, that someone already brought up Mencius and his well. I was going to do that but I guess there are more experts on Classical Asia on Dakka than I realized.

The first reaction of the Chinese government was to say that people needed to be taught more socialistic values. Many Chinese netizens immediately asked if it wasn't socialistic values that led to this situation.

(N.B. Chinese government socialistic values are not necessarily the same as social or socialist values in other countries.)

They have 4 gazillion people, so there would be more jerks, right?

$pider wrote:That's my impression from both of your posts combined. What you allude to in your second post seems to be derived from your beliefs that you mention in the post I initially replied too. Could be me misinterpreting you as well. It is Friday.

If i read Manchu right he means. Long ago religion codified certain values such as right and wrong you lived accourding to those rules. Nowadays religion is no longer such a big thing as it was back then. But those rules shaped our culture and now people follow those rules because they are common sense.

Ot
Those people walking by and doing nothing maybe they did not want to let that kid die. But their common sense told them that yes they could help her but if the family sued then they could go bankrupt. I hope that china will pass some laws that make make it impossible to sue someone that tries to help.

asimo77 wrote:Isn't this just the bystander effect in practise? I mean we can rag on China all day but we had our Kitty Genovese too.

This guy knows what he's talking about.

Bystander effect:
(And Kitty genovese, is sadly an example of this.)

This actually happened a while ago so I've been discussing this quite a bit already. The only good thing about it is that the most outraged people of all are the Chinese. Many are calling on China to take a long, hard look at itself. They say basic human decency seems to fallen out of Chinese culture and all they care about is money.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This actually happened a while ago so I've been discussing this quite a bit already. The only good thing about it is that the most outraged people of all are the Chinese. Many are calling on China to take a long, hard look at itself. They say basic human decency seems to fallen out of Chinese culture and all they care about is money.

Well, they have been studying the USA for some time and it seems they learned well.

Ahtman wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:This actually happened a while ago so I've been discussing this quite a bit already. The only good thing about it is that the most outraged people of all are the Chinese. Many are calling on China to take a long, hard look at itself. They say basic human decency seems to fallen out of Chinese culture and all they care about is money.

Well, they have been studying the USA for some time and it seems they learned well.

Has the student surpassed the master? We can't let that happen! If the US loses to China- Something, bad, will happen... Quick! Everyone start being a USA! USA!

she was 2 why the hell was she just in the street?


I know in China a lot of times baby girls are "taken care of", could this have been a case of parents telling kid to just go play in the street?

No. It was a quiet back alley, not a busy through road.

A tragic accident caused by bad driving and made worse by more bad driving and the callous disregard of passers by.

Manchu wrote:Well, that's just it: Chinese culture isn't so great.

I guess im misunderstanding what you wrote, but are you sure its to do with culture?
and not just people's reaction to a badly written law?

I mean here in Canada we have something called Good Samaritan's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
Though personally im not protected by that.

That's why I'm not sure the diffusion of responsibility phenomenon applies here. It was many people ignoring her over and over again by themselves. Also, another driver ran her over again.

The case cited by Manchu about the good Samaritan being found liable for helping someone is what's at issue.

Similarily, a while ago another hit and run victim was murdered. Apparently when you kill some one by accident in China you must pay the family a fine. If you injure them you must pay their medical bills which is more. Knowing this the driver who originally hit them by accident went back and ran them over again to finish them off because it was have been cheaper.

So did China's bizzare laws form it's culture or did its bizzare culture form its laws? I don't know.

This is just as common here in the USA.

Spend yesterday monring in the backseat of a car, holding c-spine on a lady that was involved in a wreck, one other person stopped to help her kid, nobody else helped the driver of the other car.

This was at 10am in a very busy intersection in a major city. People honking at each other because they are not driving fast enough past the two cars that crashed in the middle of the intersection. Took me about a minute to make it to the car, and in that time at least 50 other cars just drove past without making sure people were okay.

Those 18 passer by's seem to over shadow the fact that 2 people hit a two year old girl, and kept driving on.

All Chinese ( Including Hong Kong, Taiwan and other Asian countries ) are raised on these principles.
We study these since grade 1, whether we understand the meaning is one thing, but we are required to memorize these.
I guess some where along the line of growing up we will understand it.
But hey, at least we are taught social values from young age.

Anyways, this is our culture, this is our belief. This is how we think all human beings should be considerate about.
If you are interested, give it a read, you'll be plenty surprised.

The translation is abit weird at times as most of the old language cannot be directly translated.
( because a chinese phrase can be a story )

人之初，性本善。性相近，習相遠。

Men at their birth
are naturally good.
Their natures are much the same;
their habits become widely different.

苟不教，性乃遷。教之道，貴以專。

If foolishly there is no teaching,
the nature will deteriorate.
The right way in teaching
is to attach the utmost importance in thoroughness.

昔孟母，擇鄰處。子不學，斷機杼。

Of old, the mother of Mencius
chose a neighbourhood;
and when her child would not learn,
she broke the shuttle from the loom.

竇燕山，有義方。教五子，名俱揚。

Dou of the Swallow Hills
had the right method.
He taught five sons,
each of whom raised the family reputation.

養不教，父之過。教不嚴，師之惰。

To feed without teaching
is the father's fault.
To teach without severity
is the teacher's laziness.

子不學，非所宜。幼不學，老何為。

If the child does not learn,
this is not as it should be.
If he does not learn while young,
what will he be when old?

玉不琢，不成器。人不學，不知義。

If jade is not polished,
it cannot become a thing of use.
If a man does not learn,
he cannot know his duty towards his neighbour.

為人子，方少時。親師友，習禮儀。

He who is the son of a man,
when he is young
should attach himself to his teachers and friends,
and practise ceremonial usages.

香九齡，能溫席。孝於親，所當執。

Xiang, at nine years of age,
could warm (his parents') bed.
Filial piety towards parents,
is that to which we should hold fast.

融四歲，能讓梨。弟於長，宜先知。

Rong, at four years of age,
could yield the (bigger) pears.
To behave as a younger brother towards elders,
is one of the first things to know.

首孝弟，次見聞。知某數，識某文。

Begin with filial piety and fraternal love,
and then see and hear.
Learn to count,
and learn to read.

一而十，十而百。百而千，千而萬。

Units and tens,
tens and hundreds,
hundreds and thousands,
thousands and tens of thousands.

三才者，天地人。三光者，日月星。

The Three Forces
are Heaven, Earth and Man.
The Three Luminaries
are the sun, the moon and the stars.

三綱者，君臣義。父子親，夫婦順。

The Three Bonds
are the obligation between sovereign and subject,
the love between father and child,
the harmony between husband and wife.

曰春夏，曰秋冬。此四時，運不窮。

We speak of spring and summer,
we speak of autumn and winter.
These four seasons
revolve without ceasing.

曰南北，曰西東。此四方，應乎中。

We speak of North and South,
we speak of East and West,
These four points
respond to the requirements of the centre.


曰水火，木金土。此五行，本乎數。

We speak of water, fire,
wood, metal and earth.
These five elements
have their origin in number.


曰仁義，禮智信。此五常，不容紊。

We speak of charity of heart and of duty towards one's neighbour,
of propriety, of wisdom, and of truth.
These five virtues
admit of no compromise.

稻粱菽，麥黍稷。此六谷，人所食。

Rice, spiked millet, pulse,
wheat, glutinous millet and common millet.
These six grains
are those which men eat.


馬牛羊，雞犬豕。此六畜，人所飼。

The horse, the ox, the sheep,
the fowl, the dog, the pig.
These six animals,
are those which men keep.


曰喜怒，曰哀懼。愛惡欲，七情具。

We speak of joy, of anger,
we speak of pity, of fear,
of love, of hate, and of desire.
These are the seven passions.


匏土革，木石金。與絲竹，乃八音。

The gourd, earthenware, skin,
wood, stone, metal,
silk, and bamboo,
yield the eight musical sounds.


高曾祖，父而身。身而子，子而孫。自子孫，至元曾。乃九族，而之倫。

Great great grandfather, great grandfather, grandfather,
father and self,
self and son,
son and grandson,
from son and grandson
on to great grandson and great great grandson.
These are the nine agnates,
constituting the kinships of man.


父子恩，夫婦從。兄則友，弟則恭。長幼序，友與朋。君則敬，臣則忠。此十義，人所同。

Affection between father and child,
harmony between husband and wife,
friendliness on the part of elder brothers,
respectfulness on the part of younger brothers,
precedence between elders and youngers,
as between friend and friend,
respect on the part of the sovereign,
loyalty on the part of the subject.
These ten obligations,
are common to all men.

凡訓蒙，須講究。詳訓詁，名句讀。

In the education of the young,
there should be explanation and elucidation,
careful teaching of the interpretations of commentators,
and due attention to paragraphs and sentences.


為學者，必有初。小學終，至四書。

Those who are learners,
must have a beginning.
The "little learning" finished,
they proceed to the four books.


論語者，二十篇。群弟子，記善言。

There is the Lun Yu,
in twenty sections.
In this, the various disciples
have recorded the wise sayings of Confucius.


孟子者，七篇止。講道德，說仁義。

The works of Mencius
are comprised in seven sections.
These explain the way and the exemplification thereof,
and expound charity and duty towards one's neighbour.


三字經:
作中庸，子思筆。中不偏，庸不易。

The Zhong Yong was written
by the pen of Zi-si;
Zhong (the middle) being that which does not lean towards any side,
Yong (the course) being that which cannot be changed.


作大學，乃曾子。自修齊，至平治。

He who wrote The Great Learning
was the philosopher Zeng.
Beginning with cultivation of the individual and ordering of the family,
it goes on to government of one's own State and ordering of the Empire.


孝經通，四書熟。如六經，始可讀。

When the Classic of Filial Piety is mastered,
and the "Four books" are known by heart,
the next step is to the "Six classics",
which may now be studied.

詩書易，禮春秋。號六經，當講求。

The Books of Poetry, of History and of Changes.
The Rites of the Zhou Dynasty, the Book of Rites, and the Spring and Autumn Annals,
are called the Six Classics,
which should be carefully explained and analysed.


有連山，有歸藏。有周易，三易詳。

There is the Lian Shan system,
there is the Gui Zang,
And there is the system of Changes of the Zhou Dynasty;
such are the three systems which elucidate the Changes.


有典謨，有訓誥。有誓命，書之奧。

There are the Regulations, the Counsels,
the Instructions, the Announcements,
the Oaths, the Charges;
these are the profundities of the Book of History.

我周公，作周禮。著六官，存治體。

Our Duke of Zhou
drew up the Ritual of the Zhou Dynasty,
in which he set forth the duties of the six classes of officials;
and thus gave a settled form to the government.


大小戴，註禮記。述聖言，禮樂備。

The Elder and the Younger Dai
wrote commentaries on the Book of Rites.
They published the holy words,
and Ceremonies and Music were set in order.

曰國風，曰雅頌。號四詩，當諷詠。

We speak of the Guo Feng,
we speak of the Ya and the Song.
These are the four sections of the Book of poetry,
which should be hummed over and over.


詩既亡，春秋作。寓褒貶，別善惡。

When odes ceased to be made,
the Spring and Autumn Annals were produced.
These Annals contain praise and blame,
and distinguish the good from the bad.


三傳者，有公羊。有左氏，有彀梁。

The three commentaries upon the above
include that of Gong-Yang,
that of Zuo
and that of Gu-Liang.


經既明，方讀子。撮其要，記其事。

When the Classics are understood,
then the writings of the various philosophers should be read.
Pick out the important points in each,
and take a note of all facts.


五子者，有荀楊。文中子，及老莊。

The five chief philosophers
are Xun, Yang,
Wenzhongzi,
Laozi and Zhuangzi.

經子通，讀諸史。考世系，知終始。

When the Classics and the Philosophers are mastered,
the various histories should be read,
and the genealogical connections should be examined,
so that the end of one dynasty and the beginning of the next may be known.


自羲農，至黃帝。號三皇，居上世。

From Fu Xi and Shen Nong
on to the Yellow Emperor,
these are called the Three Rulers.
who lived in the early ages.


唐有虞，號二帝。相揖遜，稱盛世。

Tang and You-Yu
are called the two emperors.
They adbicated, one after the other,
and theirs was called the Golden Age.


夏有禹，商有湯。周文王，稱三王。

The Xia dynasty has Yu;
the Shang dynasty has Tang;
the Zhou dynasty had Wen and Wu;
these are called the Three Kings

夏傳子，家天下。四百載，遷夏社。

Under the Xia dynasty the throne was transmitted from father to son,
making a family possession of the empire.
After four hundred years,
the Imperial sacrifice passed from the House of Xia.


湯伐夏，國號商。六百載，至紂亡。

Tang the completer destroyed the Xia Dynasty,
and the dynastic title became Shang.
The line lasted for six hundred years,
ending with Zhou Xin.


周武王，始誅紂。八百載，最長久。

King Wu of the Zhou Dynasty
finally slew Zhou Xin.
His own line lasted for eight hundred years;
the longest dynasty of all.

周轍東，王綱墮。逞干戈，尚游說。

When the Zhous made tracks eastwards,
the feudal bond was slackened;
the arbitrament of spear and shields prevailed;
and peripatetic politicians were held in high esteem.


始春秋，終戰國。五霸強，七雄出。

This period began with the Spring and Autumn Epoch,
and ended with that of the Warring States.
Next, the Five Chieftains domineered,
and the Seven Martial States came to the front.


嬴秦氏，始兼並。傳二世，楚漢爭。

Then the House of Qin, descended from the Ying clan,
finally united all the states under one sway.
The thrown was transmitted to Er Shi,
upon which followed the struggle between the Chu and the Han States.


高祖興，漢業建。至孝平，王莽篡。

Then Gao Zu arose,
and the House of Han was established.
When we come to the reign of Xiao Ping,
Wang Mang usurped the throne.


光武興，為東漢。四百年，終於獻。

Then Guang Wu arose,
and founded the Eastern Han dynasty.
It lasted four hundred years,
and ended with the Emperor Xian.


魏蜀吳，爭漢鼎。號三國，迄兩晉。

Wei, Shu and Wu,
fought for the sovereignty of the Hans.
They were called the Three Kingdoms,
and existed until the Two Jin Dynasties.

宋齊繼，梁陳承。為南朝，都金陵。

Then followed the Song and the Qi dynasties,
and after them the Liang and Chen dynasties.
These are the Southern dynasties,
with their capital at Nanjing.

北元魏，分東西。宇文周，興高齊。

The northern dynasties are the Wei dynasty of the Yuan family,
which split into Eastern and Western We,.
the Zhou dynasty of the Yuwen family,
with the Qi dynasty of the Gao family.


迨至隋，一土宇。不再傳，失統緒。

At length, under the Sui dynasty,
the empire was united under one ruler.
The throne was not transmitted twice,
succession to power being lost.


唐高祖，起義師。除隋亂，創國基。

The first emperor of the Tang dynasty
raised volunteer troops.
He put an end to the disorder of the House of Sui,
and established the foundations of his line.

二十傳，三百載。梁義之，國乃改。

Twenty times the thrown was transmitted
in a period of three hundred years.
The Liang State destroyed it,
and the dynastic title was changed.


梁唐晉，及漢周。稱五代，皆有由。

The Liang, the Tang, the Jin,
the Han, and the Zhou,
are called the Five Dynasties,
and there was a reason for the establishment of each.


炎宋興，受周禪。十八傳，南北混。

Then the fire-led house of Song arose,
and received the resignation of the house of Zhou.
Eighteen times the throne was transmitted,
and then the north and the south were reunited.


十七史，全在茲。載治亂，知興衰。

The Seventeen Dynastic Histories
are all embraced in the above.
They contain examples of good and bad government,
whence may be learnt the principles of prosperity and decay.

讀史書，考實錄。通古今，若親目。

Ye who read history
must study the State Annals,
whereby you will understand ancient and modern events,
as though having seen them with your own eyes.


口而誦，心而惟。朝於斯，夕於斯。

Recite them with the mouth,
and ponder over them in your hearts.
Do this in the morning;
do this in the evening.


昔仲尼，師項橐。古聖賢，尚勤學。

Of old, Confucius
took Xiang Tuo for his teacher.
The inspired men and sages of old
studied diligently nevertheless.

趙中令，讀魯論。彼既仕，學且勤。

Zhao, president of the Council,
studied the Lu text of the Lun Yu.
He, when already an official,
studied, and moreover with diligence.

披蒲編，削竹簡。彼無書，且知勉。

One opened out rushes and plaited them together;
another scraped tablets of bamboo.
These men had no books,
but they knew how to make an effort.

頭懸梁，錐刺股。彼不教，自勤苦。

One tied his head to the beam above him;
another pricked his thigh with an awl.
They were not taught,
but toiled hard of their own accord.


如囊螢，如映雪。家雖貧，學不綴。

Then we have one who put fireflies in a bag.
and again another who used the white glare from snow.
Although their families were poor,
these men studied unceasingly.

如負薪，如掛角。身雖勞，猶苦卓。

Again, there was one who carried fuel,
and another who used horns as pegs.
Although they toiled with their bodies,
they were nevertheless remarkable for their application.


蘇老泉，二十七。始發憤，讀書籍。

Su Lao-Quan,
at the age of twenty-seven,
at last began to show his energy
and devote himself to the study of books.


彼既老，猶悔遲。爾小生，宜早思。

Then when already past the age,
he deeply regretted his delay.
You little boys
should take thought betimes.

若梁灝，八十二。對大廷，魁多士。

Then there were Liang Hao,
who at the age of eighty-two,
made his replies in the great hall,
and came out first among many scholars.

彼既成，衆稱異。爾小生，宜立誌。

When thus late he had succeeded,
all men pronounced him a prodigy.
You little boys
should make up your minds to work.

瑩八歲，能詠詩。泌七歲，能賦碁。

Ying, at eight years of age,
could compose poetry.
Bi, at seven years of age,
could make an epigram on wei-qi.

彼穎悟，人稱奇。爾幼學，當效之。

These youths were quick of apprehension,
and people declared them to be prodigies.
You young learners
ought to imitate them.


蔡文姬，能辨琴。謝道韞，能詠吟。

Cai Wen-ji,
was able to judge from the sound of a psaltery.
Xie Dao-yun,
was able to compose verses.

彼女子，且聰敏。爾男子，當自警。

They were only girls,
yet they were quick and clever.
You boys
ought to rouse yourselves.

唐劉晏，方七歲。舉神童，作正字。

Liu Yan of the Tang dynasty,
when only seven years of age,
was ranked as an "inspired child,"
and was appointed a Corrector of Texts.


彼雖幼，身己仕。爾幼學，勉而緻。有為者，亦若是。

He, although a child,
was already in an official post.
You young learners
strive to bring about a like result.
Those who work
will also succeed as he did.


犬守夜，雞司晨。苟不學，曷為人。

The dog keeps guard by night;
the cock proclaims the dawn.
If foolishly you do not study,
how can you become men?


蠶吐絲，蜂釀蜜。人不學，不如物。

The silkworm produces silk,
the bee makes honey.
If a man does not learn,
he is not equal to the brutes


幼而學，壯而行。上緻君，下澤民。

Learn while young,
and when grown up apply what you have learnt;
influencing the sovereign above;
benefiting the people below.


揚名聲，顯父母。光於前，裕於後。

Make a name for yourselves,
and glorify your father and mother,
shed lustre on your ancestors,
enrich your posterity.

人遺子，金滿嬴。我教子，惟一經。

Men bequeath to their children
coffers of gold;
I teach you children
only this one book.


勤有功，戲無益。戒之哉，宜勉力。

Diligence has its reward;
play has no advantages.
Oh, be on your guard,
and put forth your strength.

LunaHound wrote:All Chinese ( Including Hong Kong, Taiwan and other Asian countries ) are raised on these principles.

I'm not sure it is such a good idea to equate all of Asia with being synonymous with China. I know that people think they all look alike and thus are all the same, but I promise you it isn't that homogeneous. That being said, it is essentially the same things taught to most kids. "Sharing is caring" and being nice to others are hallmarks of childhood indoctrination. As we get older we are taught so many other lessons both inside and outside of the classroom that we, and I imagine you noticed, don't live up to those altruistic ideals. People can end up being greedy, self-centered, and vain in any country regardless of what schools teach. If it was simple as that people wouldn't have left the little girl in the road all that time. One of the reasons, as pointed out above, is that people have been taught that it is in their best interest not to help. Culture is complicated and not just made up of what is taught to us a children.

LunaHound wrote:But hey, at least we are taught social values from young age.

But hey, so are all kids. The words may be different, but the message really isn't. I isn't as if China is teaching kids to love one another and be helpful but everyone is has there kids enrolled in the Gordon Gecko feth Em All Academy.

LunaHound wrote:Anyways, this is our culture, this is our belief. This is how we think all human beings should be considerate about.

Culture is more than a few lines taught at childhood, and it isn't 'ours', unless you mean Canada which is where you are. Again you are creating a level of homogenization that doesn't quite match up with reality. This sort of Borg like 'we' is part of the cultural indoctrination as well often times. It is also a bit, erm, creepy, to go on as if one spoke for all Chinese, let alone apparently all of Asia in one voice.

I imagine the Tibetan's would be a happier group if it was all as simple as this. Same goes for Taiwan.

There's like one verse in there about helping strangers. Guess that kind of gets buried in the rest of it.

China's culture is a....."luck" based one. They're real big on luck. Don't sweep on this day or you'll sweep away your good luck don't buy this on another or you'll bring in bad luck. Very heavily laden with superstition.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's like one verse in there about helping strangers. Guess that kind of gets buried in the rest of it.

China's culture is a....."luck" based one. They're real big on luck. Don't sweep on this day or you'll sweep away your good luck don't buy this on another or you'll bring in bad luck. Very heavily laden with superstition.

It stems for the more practical realization that doing housework at all is boring and should be avoided at all costs.

Toastedandy wrote:Those 18 passer by's seem to over shadow the fact that 2 people hit a two year old girl, and kept driving on.

That's what I was thinking...

I was witness to a quite nasty looking accident on the motorway in the UK, while not quite as vivid as this example, while I had stopped to try and help practically every other cars just zig-zagged their way through the smashed vehicles and through broken glass. One car even took off another car's door which had swung open as it went.

As it happened, no-one was killed, although several people were badly hurt and perhaps it could have been worse if my mate hadn't called the emergency services the moment it happened.

While in South Korea, I saw a guy was lying spread eagled on the floor of a cross-roads, wearing black clothing obviously drunk and out for the count. I shook my head in wonderment, the taxi driver of the car I was in just started laughing and swerved past him.

As others have pointed out, the decision to walk on by is not isolated or something to do with the failure of Chinese culture. If anything it is more usual for people to show this behaviour, the decision to get involved and to try and help I don't think is straightforward or easy - especially when people are so wrapped up within their own lives and with whatever is going on within their own heads. I can perfectly believe that many of the passers by refused to acknowledge the little girl lying there, quite often this is a function of the human brain that can attempt to block out things which are massively harmful to the psyche - such as a child lying bloody and broken on the side of the road, many returning service men who have taken part in action have reported similar behaviour having witnessed something similarly horrifying.

I do think however that some people's reaction to this incident is quite interesting in of itself. China is undergoing a massive economic, political and social overhaul at the moment. Many Chinese people apparently feel un-anchored, lost by how quickly life is changing, and so are afraid that the most important values (such as regard for another's life) are being lost as well during the onset of modernity. This is not unique - it happened in Europe during the Industrial revolution, with entire genres of art spawned by it, and also in other parts of the world during rapid changes in society.

Also, how the outside world is reacting to the Chinese I find to be quite interesting. Their culture, thousands of years old and something deeply routed in their traditions, language and way of life represents something quite different to the Western-Christian domination of global politics which have taken place for the last several hundred years. And things which people don't understand, they generally are afraid of as it represents a movement into the unknown. Will the rise of China create a new 'Cold War' which could escalate into another Cuban Missile Crisis and place the survival of human civilization itself into question? Or, will it instead restore some security to world politics, and a balance that many felt was lost when the Soviet Union collapsed and the US was able to achieve an unchallenged hegemony in terms of world power? No doubt the next twenty years or so will be very interesting to any students of politics and history.

I realise that I have made quite a few points here very briefly, when entire books have been written on the subject! But, I think it is better to look at some of the underlying issues here rather than just responding with a stock "well, it's just because they are Chinese."

I think people should also keep in mind that we're using a group of about 20 people to judge a population of over a billion.

@KC: Law is a part of culture.


@Lunahound: I don't think kids in the PRC have been taught from the Four Books for a while now.

if not coulting others discussing over this moral crisis in China now.

I ain't no chinese, not even a descent. but some of my relatives did marry chinese here.

my mum even admired their culture, believing that they're the most civilized race. they're sublime and grateful (some said to the point of being vengeful should the outsiders have a friction with them) and my mum (well not my opinion) suggested that chinese women are generally a better choice than whites.

this incident shocked my mum, and it also terrorized me!

Although some may feel that the greatest change to Chinese culture is the latest economic boom it was the transformation of China into the PRC by Mao that resonates most strongly till this day.

by the time of Mao hype. everyone had enough of 'traditionalism'. even in the days of Republic (pre-civil wars), the 'better soceity' Dr. Sun Yat Sen promised to chinese folks by that time, has never been realized. he did share the same visions as those who do French Revolution, too bad he forgot to 'seed' the concepts of 'new china' to his folks before staging a revolution. this resulted in a series of warlord era. which nothing short of the old china systems. in addition to Triads proliferation of that time. the chinese folks who was oppressed with such tyranny had accepted that 'Traditions' are the yokes and it has to go. but it needs someone like Mao Zedong to make such 'revolution' real.

the lack of 'enforcement' in 'Confucianism' (as schools of politics and social science) , proven by the 20s tyranny. had made Mao ideal valids.

I'll never understand why Mao gets away with doing he same things as Stalin and Hitler but none of the criticism.

asimo wrote:Isn't this just the bystander effect in practise?

Not really, at least based on the wikipedia definition:

The mere presence of other bystanders greatly decreases intervention. This happens because as the number of bystanders increases, any given bystander is less likely to notice the incident, less likely to interpret the incident as a problem, and less likely to assume responsibility for taking action.

In this case, by contrast, it seems that the majority of people didn't help because of potential liability under Chinese law. Let's get back to the Confucian debate: are people innately good or selfish? Mencius would say "look, it's not that Chinese people are bad -- it's just that there is this bad law which forces them to act badly."

^ Throughout the 'rag' China (185x-194x). there are many 'wrongs' the ruling body did, since the days of Cixi onwards, EVERY chinese leaders did the same tyranny... the 'Chinese Revolution' only removes the 'old clans' and its systems. but doesn't remove. nor reform 'traditions', regardless that it's a good or bad ones.
if the republic government was strong enough, and fair. Mao will NEVER rally chinese folks into his red flag.