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Albatross wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Albatross wrote:Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

It is complicated and people write entire books on the subject, but ask yourself what it means to believe in Jesus, what is the nature of Jesus, and how do one express their devotion to him and his ideals. You will get radically different answers to each of those questions in different parts.

But surely the 'Christ' part is operative, meaning that those who identify as 'Christian' accept Jesus Christ as part of their faith? To put it another way, are there Christians who don't believe in Jesus in some form or another?

Of course, but the problem is in saying "We Christians believe X" when that is often not the case. Look at the Mormon situation where they consider themselves Christians, but not all those that full under the umbrella of Christianity would agree. The Mormon view of Jesus is very different from the Catholic view. Just saying "I believe in Jesus" doesn't carry a lot of meaningful information.

Albatross wrote:There is no real connection, though. One is a lazy and meaningless national stereotype, the other is you claiming to speak for 90% of Taiwan.

Then how does one prove thats what Taiwan wanted. Even though its common sense in Taiwanese society?
I mean even if you ask a Taiwanese, i dont think 1 alone can convince you.
Then how many does it take?
Or are there other methods to "prove" that's what Taiwanese want? When its obvious its in our culture, our everything?

Oh, actually THERE IS a way. First way is to prove Taiwan and Hong Kong hates communist China.
I dont have to prove to you that i speak for Taiwan, but I CAN prove what i said is correct.

Look up Taiwan and Hong Kong immigration number ( departing ) , from 1990- 1996

Ahtman wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Albatross wrote:Wait, not all Christians believe in Jesus? How does that work?

It is complicated and people write entire books on the subject, but ask yourself what it means to believe in Jesus, what is the nature of Jesus, and how do one express their devotion to him and his ideals. You will get radically different answers to each of those questions in different parts.

But surely the 'Christ' part is operative, meaning that those who identify as 'Christian' accept Jesus Christ as part of their faith? To put it another way, are there Christians who don't believe in Jesus in some form or another?

Of course, but the problem is in saying "We Christians believe X" when that is often not the case. Look at the Mormon situation where they consider themselves Christians, but not all those that full under the umbrella of Christianity would agree. The Mormon view of Jesus is very different from the Catholic view. Just saying "I believe in Jesus" doesn't carry a lot of meaningful information.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all!

I think we may both be reading a little too much into a sentence that was, after all, a mere victim of poor construction.

LunaHound wrote:Then how does one prove thats what Taiwan wanted.

Well first one recognizes that they aren't the Borg and people have different aspirations and goals. Secondly, you do research. You do polls, read books, newspapers, magazines, ect. You also don't start with the conclusion and set out to prove it.

LunaHound wrote:Even though its common sense in Taiwanese society?

As usual, 'common sense' seems to be a stand if for 'this is what I believe'.

LunaHound wrote:I mean even if you ask a Taiwanese

Why would I only ask a person when I am trying to get to look at a group of people?

LunaHound wrote:Then how many does it take?

Certainly more than just one person referring to themselves in the third person plural.

LunaHound wrote:Or are there other methods to "prove" that's what Taiwanese want?

Yes. They aren't even new or anything. Though 'prove' is not really the right word. Reflect would be more accurate.

LunaHound wrote:When its obvious its in our culture, our everything?

I don't know. I've been to Canada a couple of times and your culture didn't seem like that at all.

Sometimes I feel a great great shame for my race.

This is one of those moments.

Also, apparently the girl has passed away in hospital a few days back. RIP :(

Ahtman wrote: I don't know. I've been to Canada a couple of times and your culture didn't seem like that at all.

Im Taiwanese you silly man. I immigrated to Canada.

Ya, what was I thinking ahtman, I have been thinking about this reversed. Here i was thinking how can "I" as individual suddenly dug up something that is so obvious, its not like i can go create a poll and ask Taiwanese right this incident.

Nope, I have been doing it in wrong sequence. The correct way would be, how can YOU miss the fact of the immigrations out of Hong Kong AND Taiwan when China was taking over Hong Kong in 1997? This is the most important event for both, some how i doubt you can ignore that.

LunaHound wrote:

Albatross wrote:There is no real connection, though. One is a lazy and meaningless national stereotype, the other is you claiming to speak for 90% of Taiwan.

Then how does one prove thats what Taiwan wanted. Even though its common sense in Taiwanese society?

I reject the argument from common sense, when it comes to the hopes and fears of entire nation of people.

I mean even if you ask a Taiwanese, i dont think 1 alone can convince you.

That's precisely the point. You only really definitely speak for yourself, and perhaps for a handful of others, though I'm not sure you've secured permission to be their spokesperson.

Or are there other methods to "prove" that's what Taiwanese want? When its obvious its in our culture, our everything?

How is it obvious? What does a nation 'want'?

Albatross wrote:How is it obvious? What does a nation 'want'?

I can attest for what a nation "dont want"
The proof is the numbers escaping HK and TW before 1997.

What, the entire nation just upped and left in a hive mind level of activity?

How did we miss that?

LunaHound wrote:Im Taiwanese you silly man.

But you are just one person, you aren't Taiwan itself. And, dur, we all know that. You keep speaking for all Taiwanese people so it seems fair to ask: when was the last time you actually spent more than a week or two there?

Anecdotally, I've met a fair few Taiwanese and never heard any of them praise the Mainland -- outside of appraising business opportunity. There must be a substantial portion of Taiwanese who do support unification of Taiwan with the PRC, however, given that it's major political topic and politicians who support it find their way into elected office at the highest levels.

This article also kind of reminds me of that bible parable about the good Samaritan, except these were just a bunch of negligent street bums and there was no samaritan to save the toddler.

Well, keep in mind that these people could have been thinking "it's my family or hers." Getting sued could be disastrous for a family. It's really sad, yes. And Yue's parents don't seem to be litigious. But that's (probably) why people did what they did, not because they were negligent bums.

Can anyone tell that I favor Mencius btw?

Manchu wrote:Can anyone tell that I favor Mencius btw?

That is the vanilla bean and coffee flavored ice cream right?

Albatross wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I see... for you a Christian is someone that believes in Christ and only then can they be considered one.
I see it as possibly a mere title. e.g Like a communist wouldn't necessarily be willing to share everything.

Yes, I'm one of those crazy people that assumes that words, when used, have the generally agreed meaning, and not just the meaning that the user finds convenient when back-peddling.

Manchu wrote:But that "feudalism" was incredibly successful for thousands of years. Dr. Sun, or rather Jiang Jieshi's, particular failure with regard to modernizing Chinese culture seems like more of symptom than a cause. But I actually don't totally understand what you were saying about the changes in Chinese culture.

by the time of Dr. Sun's revolution. the 'feudalism' had revealed its own fatal weakness. failure to response to the 'barbarian encroachment'.

Karon wrote:

Albatross wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I see... for you a Christian is someone that believes in Christ and only then can they be considered one.
I see it as possibly a mere title. e.g Like a communist wouldn't necessarily be willing to share everything.

Yes, I'm one of those crazy people that assumes that words, when used, have the generally agreed meaning, and not just the meaning that the user finds convenient when back-peddling.

Mod Kilkrazy: What does this picture mean? A bit of context would help, otherwise pics like this seems random and spammy.

For all the people who posted thoughtless, even bigoted generalizations about China and Chinese culture in general in this thread as if their own country is somehow immune to bad behavior, here's a reminder that this kind of thing happens in the USA and other places all the time. Not only was there a well publicized case some years ago where a woman was being killed in an alley in New York and the six or so neighbors who heard it failed to even call the police, but here's a case in Pennsylvania you may have heard about where someone walked in on a young boy being sexually assaulted and instead of intervening they went home and waited till the next day to report it to their boss rather than going to the police. It took 12 years for these multiple sexual assaults on children to make it to a full criminal investigation. It's totally shameful. And yes, people are the same EVERYWHERE, good and bad.

You can read the timeline of the Penn State child sex abuse here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html?ref=mostpopular

BrassScorpion wrote:For all the people who posted thoughtless, even bigoted generalizations about China and Chinese culture in general in this thread as if their own country is somehow immune to bad behavior, here's a reminder that this kind of thing happens in the USA and other places all the time. Not only was there a well publicized case some years ago where a woman was being killed in an alley in New York and the six or so neighbors who heard it failed to even call the police, but here's a case in Pennsylvania you may have heard about where someone walked in on a young boy being sexually assaulted and instead of intervening they went home and waited till the next day to report it to their boss rather than going to the police. It took 12 years for these multiple sexual assaults on children to make it to a full criminal investigation. It's totally shameful. And yes, people are the same EVERYWHERE, good and bad.

You can read the timeline of the Penn State child sex abuse here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/penn-state-scandal-timeline-jerry-sandusky_n_1084204.html?ref=mostpopular

Make sure you fully understand someones post before responding. It was not a ' bigoted generalizations about China and Chinese culture' it was a analysis of the differences between a culture based on neo-Confucius ideology and an Abrahamic ideology.

Make sure you fully understand someones post before responding. It was not a ' bigoted generalizations about China and Chinese culture' it was a analysis of the differences between a culture based on neo-Confucius ideology and an Abrahamic ideology.

Make sure you read all the posts in this thread before you get your exercise jumping to conclusions. There are plenty of posts in this thread that are pretty ignorant in their gross and bigoted generalizations going all the way back to the beginning of the discussion. Whatever questionable philosophy you are on about, I'm sure I didn't even read it because I gave up on this thread early on after seeing all the bigoted, thoughtless comments. I only returned to it tonight because I had a fine and quite current example of how the exact same horrible things happen in the US too and I thought I'd give some people a clear reason to look at the folly of their own prejudices. Why do people on forums always think that every post is talking directly to them? It's often delusional. Or maybe sometimes, a guilty conscience.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Make sure you fully understand someones post before responding. It was not a ' bigoted generalizations about China and Chinese culture' it was a analysis of the differences between a culture based on neo-Confucius ideology and an Abrahamic ideology.

Make sure you read all the posts in this thread before you get your exercise jumping to conclusions. There are plenty of posts in this thread that are pretty ignorant in their gross generalizations going all the way back to the beginning of the discussion. Why do people on forums always thing that every post is talking directly to them? It's often delusional. Or maybe sometimes, a guilty conscience.

Have I posted in this thread before? I assume that your post is directed at Manchu. By western standards Confucian ideology and culture is bad, many of it's philosophies directly contradict what we believe. So far the only unexplained claim was SlaveToDarkness

Well... its China

Which is still founded on what we see of china. There are few redeeming aspects the current Chinese government or culture.

I assume that your post is directed at

Always a good move to assume. Quit while you're ahead, please.

Do I really need to go back to the beginning of the thread to identify all of the bigoted or grossly general and irrational posts? I'll leave that up to others, those posts aren't hard to spot and there are plenty of them. All I have to say further is that I was appalled that this thread wasn't shut down pretty early on given the level of some of the comments.

There are few redeeming aspects the current Chinese government or culture.

Now that IS the kind of comment to which I was referring.

The Chinese government is run by communist thugs. Remember Tiananmen Square? The people that killed, that was the oppressive government. The people out there protesting to be free like the guy standing in front of the tank with his groceries trying to stop the violence, those were real people. People like any other people, some good, some not. Including the entire Chinese culture in your summary of the Chinese government is just the kind of bigoted comment that should have caused this topic to be shut down ages ago. Fortunately, not all people are the same because I'd hate to think the guy standing in front of the tank was an ignorant bigot like someone who would make a statement like that. Some people never learn or grow. :(

Since demonizing an entire group of human beings on this forum is usually grounds for a thread to be shut down, I would like to formally ask the next Moderator who sees this to please do so now because there are plenty of such comments in this thread. Thank you.

BrassScorpion wrote:

assume

Always a good move. Quit while you're ahead, please.

That is not how you pick out poor statements.

BrassScorpion wrote:
The Chinese government is run by communist thugs. Remember Tiananmen Square? The people that killed, that was the oppressive government. The people out there protesting to be free like the guy standing in front of the tank with his groceries trying to stop the violence, those were real people. People like any other people, some good, some not.

Funny thing, no one remembers the people that died, but lots of people remember the guy that stared down the tank (he's still alive).

Funny thing, no one remembers the people that died,

That's a broad statement and I doubt it's true. Clearly I remembered and I'm sure there are many others, not the least of which would be the families of the dead, journalists, concerned ambassadors and more than a few politicians and scholars with a conscience.

but lots of people remember the guy that stared down the tank (he's still alive).

That's what the government claims, but they won't say exactly what happened to him or what cruelty they probably did dish out, which does not bode well from an oppressive communist regime.

BrassScorpion wrote:That's a broad statement and I doubt it's true. Clearly I remembered and I'm sure there are many others...

Clearly I was exaggerating.

BrassScorpion wrote:
...and more than a few politicians and scholars with a conscience.

That's their first problem.

BrassScorpion wrote:
That's what the government claims, but they won't say exactly what happened to him or what cruelty they probably did dish out, which does not bode well from an oppressive communist regime.

Its what several people, not necessarily affiliated with the Chinese state, claim.

Its human culture to turn on poeple. I saw a vid of a trans getting beaten in a Macdonals without the assault getting stopped but the employes actually cheered the beaters.
I read of a theif that stole expensive medicin and ran. Even though the doctors ran after noone stopped him.
Some years ago a women was attacked by a 12 year old trying to rape her. One car passed by and the driver saw what was happening but ignored and drove past, thankfully a father and his son stoppe the boy.
Another example happend during a car chrash when several cars just stopped and started to film the accident then to help.

BrassScorpion wrote:

I assume that your post is directed at

Always a good move to assume. Quit while you're ahead, please.

Do I really need to go back to the beginning of the thread to identify all of the bigoted or grossly general and irrational posts? I'll leave that up to others, those posts aren't hard to spot and there are plenty of them. All I have to say further is that I was appalled that this thread wasn't shut down pretty early on given the level of some of the comments.

There are few redeeming aspects the current Chinese government or culture.

Now that IS the kind of comment to which I was referring.

The Chinese government is run by communist thugs. Remember Tiananmen Square? The people that killed, that was the oppressive government. The people out there protesting to be free like the guy standing in front of the tank with his groceries trying to stop the violence, those were real people. People like any other people, some good, some not. Including the entire Chinese culture in your summary of the Chinese government is just the kind of bigoted comment that should have caused this topic to be shut down ages ago. Fortunately, not all people are the same because I'd hate to think the guy standing in front of the tank was an ignorant bigot like someone who would make a statement like that. Some people never learn or grow. :(

Since demonizing an entire group of human beings on this forum is usually grounds for a thread to be shut down, I would like to formally ask the next Moderator who sees this to please do so now because there are plenty of such comments in this thread. Thank you.

I'll try this again, Confusion ideologies, which most of Chinese culture is based on, is often at odds with western ideologies. To someone from the west, Chinese culture has few redeeming qualities. For one who claims to be respectful and knowledgeable of different cultures you seem to be having difficulty with understanding that western and eastern culrures are at odds with one another. I would't expect the Chinese man to admire western culture, because he would view it as having few redeeming aspects.

Confucianism hardly comes off as some radical, alien philosophy to westerners. An actual Confucian wouldn't leave a girl bleeding in the street. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. China could use a little reintroduction to Confucius.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Confucianism hardly comes off as some radical, alien philosophy to westerners. An actual Confucian wouldn't leave a girl bleeding in the street. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. China could use a little reintroduction to Confucius.

Obviously the ruler lacks ren therefore the people lack ren

I did not mean to sat that is is a radical ideology, nearly that many of it's ideas are incompatible with western thought

Well, im pretty sure I just wrote a long and intellectual reply but its disappeared following a lengthy drinking binge.

I guess ill come back in the morning then!