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Armless Failure wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Page 2, Codex Witch Hunters, 3rd Paragraph under 'The Ordo Hereticus' last sentence.

Armless Failure wrote:1) Repeated claims that Sisters are Marine ripoffs without actually dealing with the counter-argument brought against the point during it's previous statement do not constitute a reasonable debate/discussion of a point. My counter-argument to your point is that Necrons are more mechanically similar to Marines than SoB. If you think they play similarly, you have either never played sisters or played them VERY poorly. They require significantly different tactics, and their style of combat is rather unique to them.

This is irrelevant. I didn't say "plays like". I said they're just supposed to be ladymarines. Probably to mollify the people who clamored for ladymarines back in the day. But their first, half-official (in that they had no models and only nominal rules) existence began as a ripoff of Marines (10 model squads armed exactly as a Space Marine Tactical Squad), and never got much better. Heck, they are the nuns to match the Space Marines' monks. Sister Sin wasn't even a Sororitas, she just happened to be a picture the Rogue Trader guys decided fit with their fluff page on the Ecclesiarchy. RT was full of crazy stuff like that.

3) Lots of people use old models, I have about 15 metal tactical marines, does the fact that they are old and have funny looking bolters mean that they are no longer valid since they aren't wielding the bolters that look like the current ones?

Likely I have far older models than you do, some of which still get used. That has nothing to do with my point. It wasn't that the models were old, it was that they were from a different period of the game's design. IGuardsmen used to carry las cannons on their shoulders. Eventually it was decided that was a bit unrealistic too.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

So we can't cite official sources that don't support your argument, or we can't cite ones you don't like/haven't read?

Once again you miss the point. She said power armor had "always" been strength enhancing in the fluff, and cited three sources. One was over twenty years old, and said no such thing. The other was almost twenty and said no such thing. The last is only ten and less than half of the game's lifespan, so I suggested that can't be listed as "always".

1997, that's still over a decade or precedence, and several subsequent Black Library books have referenced them in PA, and BL is canon.

I hate to say it again, but you've missed the point. I'm not disputing that they have power armor, because they most certainly do. I'm just saying they shouldn't, and in a separate point, that even if they changed the rules for them, the models could still be used. It's an opinion. You're getting confused because my posts contain both elements of my opinion, and then separate factual elements that counter poorly constructed arguments because A: I started playing this game a long time ago and B: have access to most of the books in question. To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units. If you tell me they aren't just a weaksauce rip off of Space Marines, I'll just kinda laugh at you because from the start, that's all they were, and it's barely changed.


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pretre wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Page 2, Codex Witch Hunters, 3rd Paragraph under 'The Ordo Hereticus' last sentence.

See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can produce.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

While the absence of a binding canon means that your interpretation of the setting is just as valid as anyone's, I will point out that it runs contradictory to what many studio sources have stated - from various White Dwarf articles (and yes, I can provide the issue numbers, if you really want to look this up) to the official Armageddon III campaign website to their few codices.

But yes, if you go by Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49, Sisters engaging a rogue Marine Chapter typically target the leadership structure directly, deepstriking right into their HQ in the hopes of "cutting off the head of the snake", so to speak. Given their armaments and the impressive modifications carried out on Dominica-pattern drop pods (basically Astartes Deathwing pods modified by the AdMech and loaded chock-full of automated heavy meltas to provide a static barrage of Armour-Away™), this enables an elite strike force of chosen Sisters to deal a crippling blow to a Marine Chapter with comparatively few numbers, with a success rate that lets the Inquisition prefer them before asking other Marines to carry out the job (although this is also a matter of loyalty - or rather not risking the affiliation of another Chapter by asking them to move against their brethren).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They didn't have anything in the Rogue Trader days other than a picture and a small blurb about how they were enforcers of genetic testing.

And that one miniature, yes yes. But why exactly isn't that enough to establish that they have had power armour from the moment the Marines had it?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can produce.

On page 2 it also says, and I quote, "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter".

And "the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce" is referenced in White Dwarf #211.

Your move.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Crimson wrote:
I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

No, they're the only T3 3+ armour save army in the game, making them 4+ makes the army less unique, not more. Only marines and Necrons have 3+ armour, both at T4, whilst most t3 armies are between 4+ and 6+. I can only actually think of incubi and striking scorpians (both expensive elites) that have T3 and 3+ armour.

The armour is strength enhancing, its the case in the RPG version of the game, even without a power pack. Also, in the recent black library book Hammer and Anvil the sisters armour is specifically described as being strength enhancing on several occasions. To the point where at one part of the book a canoness casually picks up a recalitrant tech priest with one hand and throws him into a (spoiler ). Since I imagine a cyborg thats 75% metal weighs quite a lot its fair to say that constitiues above human strength. Also, there are guard models capable of carrying heavy weapons ie that special character catachan who also has no means of support beyond basic human strength. Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Interestingly the Sororitas models with heavy weapons have extra exoskeleton bits to help them carry the big guns. So GW has definitely thought about it.

And I did not mean that Sisters should not have power armours at all, but I think it would nicely diversify the force if they lighter armoured options as well. And yes, I'd like to see power armour to be something rather rare and reserved to more veteran troops. This does not necessarily mean that there could be no power-armoured troop options. IG veterans are a troop choice as well.

Crimson wrote:Interestingly the Sororitas models with heavy weapons have extra exoskeleton bits to help them carry the big guns. So GW has definitely thought about it.

And I did not mean that Sisters should not have power armours at all, but I think it would nicely diversify the force if they lighter armoured options as well. And yes, I'd like to see power armour to be something rather rare and reserved to more veteran troops. This does not necessarily mean that there could be no power-armoured troop options. IG veterans are a troop choice as well.

IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

But yes, if you go by Andy Hoare's article in Citadel Journal #49, Sisters engaging a rogue Marine Chapter typically target the leadership structure directly, deepstriking right into their HQ in the hopes of "cutting off the head of the snake", so to speak. Given their armaments and the impressive modifications carried out on Dominica-pattern drop pods (basically Astartes Deathwing pods modified by the AdMech and loaded chock-full of automated heavy meltas to provide a static barrage of Armour-Away™), this enables an elite strike force of chosen Sisters to deal a crippling blow to a Marine Chapter with comparatively few numbers, with a success rate that lets the Inquisition prefer them before asking other Marines to carry out the job (although this is also a matter of loyalty - or rather not risking the affiliation of another Chapter by asking them to move against their brethren).

If the Space Marines are entirely stupid enough to allow the Sisters to use their own tactic against them, then yes, maybe that story works. However, that story is about as believable as the rest of the current Sisters fluff, so hey. But somehow I feel like the Space Marines would be better prepared for such an engagement than Andy Hoare may have thought about ahead of time that day.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.


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Totalwar1402 wrote: Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Orks are huge... Sisters are not. Orks are also S3 to balance their points cost (low) with the fluff (lots of them).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.

So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own.

'Scuse me? They've got the same Ballistic Skill and the same guns. What exactly should prevent them from dishing out sufficient hurt? I'm sorry, but that assessment - the myth of Untouchable Astartes - just reeks of defensive Marine fanboyism.

For someone so drenched in Sister fan sludge, I feel like you may want to refrain from calling anyone a fanboy. However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Your move.

This isn't a contest.


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Totalwar1402 wrote: Also, orks (str3 without furious charge remember) also carry large heavy weapons without teams like Imperial guard since its generally accepted that fluff wise they are stronger than a basic human but not quite the equal of a marine (without FC). So there are other precedents for being str3 but having fluff wise greater strength and being able to carry heavy weapons.

Orks are huge... Sisters are not. Orks are also S3 to balance their points cost (low) with the fluff (lots of them).

Sisters have power armour which enhances str, orks do not. Orks are still str3, same reason sisters are str 3 they can't justifiably or gamewise be made marine level str 4. Size is besides the point, mechanical power is usually greater than flesh and the armour provides that; hence the examples I gave.

Crimson wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

The easiest way to have done this with the current codex woudl not have been for Grey Knights to steal our units like Arco-flagellants and lump them into some hodge-podge unit where they suck worse than they did. A few more tanks would be nice too. Space Marines and IG have some great tank models. Maybe a fast attack unit that moves more then 12" would be nice too like some sort of drop ship or bike unit. Some sort of spirit-like Angelic Sororitas (similiar to Legion of the Damned) might have been cool too. Perhaps a few more special characters too.

The lack of diversification though currently has more to do with them not creating or not wanting to create newer models. Mono-pose metal models are terrible for that. A couple of blinged out units like Blood Angels and Space Wolves got in the way fo kits would go a long way to remedying that.

andrewm9 wrote:So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

I see where you are going. Pedal to the floor off into nowhere land. Sure, their bolters and heavy bolters and flamers are just as good as the ones Marines have. What they don't have is everything else there that I listed. And what exactly did Codex: Witch Hunters delineate? That the Inquisitors could requisition Imperial Guard units and Sororitas Heroes could find themselves temporarily in command of Guard units? Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters is an Inquisition Codex, not a Sisters Codex. You don't even need to use any Sisters in the army, it just lets you. And it was also a convenient way for GW to get around having to print another Codex for the Sisters (hence why they still don't have a 5th Ed codex aside from the convenient to print WD one), but still create usable armies for their various Inquisition, Preacher, etc models. Though I think you also misuse the word delineate. And again, I refer back to my previous comment about people being "fanboys". You use the term in a derogatory manner about others when you don't even realize you are one yourself. Pardon me if I'm not terribly offended or thwarted by your invocation.

Crimson wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:
IG Veterans shouldn't be a troop choice at all but elites in much the same marine veterans are. Sisters do need diversification, but I disagree with your method. I have plenty of ways to diversify them without taking away their power armor.

I can understand that. It is possible that my main reason to want carapace-armoured sisters is that I think they'd look cool (and no, not like Repentia.) I just think an army is more interesting to paint and model if it has more diversity in it's model range.

As an alternate troop type like necrons and immortals I can understand, but replacing the core troop unit with CA armour just sends shivers down my spine.

Variety is always good, but in terms of ascetic they're all going to appear gothic in design and SOB armour is IMO fairly different from say dark eldar warriors or marines I don't see how it would make as drastic an increase in variety as you suggest.

If they did make a CA troop choice, then it would probably look like hospitaller armour (actually CA even though it looks very close to power armour) and whilst it would be good to add such a unit I'd prefer they didn't change the existing SOB troops to do it; (like they did with necron warriors to move immortals into a troop slot). CA sisters and celestians in power armour as troops would just be meh.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:So the WH codex was just wrong all of those years it was a real codex? The Sisters heavy bolter isn't as good as the Space Marine heavy bolter? The Multi-melta? The Heavy Flamer? The Boltgun? See where I am going with this. I see this sort of argument alot on FFG's forums and it usually comes from SM fanboys. Its true Sisters are only human but thier gear is not in any way inferior. the only real difference is int he armor support systems and the WH codex clearly delineated that.

I see where you are going. Pedal to the floor off into nowhere land. Sure, their bolters and heavy bolters and flamers are just as good as the ones Marines have. What they don't have is everything else there that I listed. And what exactly did Codex: Witch Hunters delineate? That the Inquisitors could requisition Imperial Guard units and Sororitas Heroes could find themselves temporarily in command of Guard units? Remember, Codex: Witch Hunters is an Inquisition Codex, not a Sisters Codex. You don't even need to use any Sisters in the army, it just lets you. And it was also a convenient way for GW to get around having to print another Codex for the Sisters (hence why they still don't have a 5th Ed codex aside from the convenient to print WD one), but still create usable armies for their various Inquisition, Preacher, etc models. Though I think you also misuse the word delineate. And again, I refer back to my previous comment about people being "fanboys". You use the term in a derogatory manner about others when you don't even realize you are one yourself. Pardon me if I'm not terribly offended or thwarted by your invocation.

But SOB don't have lascannons, sniper rifles, plasma guns, grenade launchers, shotguns etc (all of which joe guardsman has his hands on) because fluff wise they're meant to only kill people with the trinity of bolter, flamer and melta. Obviously terminator armour and land raiders are relics of the marines. But most of those guns arent used because the sisters are too weak/poor/guns are too rare its because GW designed them to have a certain weapon set. That doesn't mean fluffwise they're weaker on the equipment front and therefore shouldn't have power armour or rhinos or bolters.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, no, they don't have the same guns.

They lack the Marines' versatility, but they have equivalent bolter and melta weapons, and more quite simply isn't needed to take on a Marine. It's all a matter of tactics, i.e. employing the tools you have in the most efficient way. And it's simple, really: When a bolter-wielding Marine can kill other Marines, a Sister can, too.

You say it's not you who is proposing the changes you're wishing for but that it is the game - yet your arguments go against all the game has ever told us, in terms of rules, in terms of fluff and in terms of visuals.

It's sad that whereas in the fluff Marines grudgingly respect and acknowledge the fighting prowess of the Orders Militant (and vice-versa), I have seen a lot of Marine players that do not. In a way, I can even understand it - as well as the desire to break the status quo by proposing to "nerf" the opponent. Both armies tread on similar grounds and yet lack a common heritage, so I guess a certain level of rivalry could be expected. Even moreso as the Sisters' potency and their purges of heretic Marine Chapters may make Marines appear a bit less superhuman than some players may wish.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, that story is about as believable as the rest of the current Sisters fluff, so hey.

It's a lot more believable than half the fluff the studio churned out about the Space Marines. Or the setting in general. But hey - picking and choosing is a perfectly valid approach for personal interpretations, too, and of course I'm in no position to tell you what sources you should craft your preferred perception by, so if you feel that your Marines' status is somehow threatened by the SoB as written by GW, go ahead and maybe adopt FFG's interpretation of them. Or make up your own version with carapace or Guard flak, or - better yet, since you don't like their background - remove them altogether. No canon means no rules.

My opinion really just boils back down to this:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units.

From the beginning, they were a lame Space Marine derivative instead of their own army, and have always felt that way. Making them burny and girls doesn't make them unique. The Salamanders are burny too. The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

And if you feel that lacking any kind of long ranged punch is not a liability against a superhuman foe that does have such weaponry, well, I'll let you believe that. Having served in the military and studied strategy and tactics, my belief lies elsewhere. GW can tell me lots of things, lol. But without a reasonable explanation, I chalk it up as believable as the terrible BL books like Battle of the Abyss. Sure, being more fragile, and with their most potent weapons having half of the range (and being duplicated by their opponents anyway), and being completely outclassed in every form of supporting fires, I can see how it would make sense that "more quite simply isn't needed". You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1. You've came into a Sisters thread and launched an OT attack on sisters trying to prove that they were not worthy of this that and the other thing.

Granted, we bit. Our bad for feeding the OT. But really, what did you expect?

In the words of the Humongous, "Just walk away."

Totalwar1402 wrote:But SOB don't have lascannons, sniper rifles, plasma guns, grenade launchers, shotguns etc (all of which joe guardsman has his hands on) because fluff wise they're meant to only kill people with the trinity of bolter, flamer and melta. Obviously terminator armour and land raiders are relics of the marines. But most of those guns arent used because the sisters are too weak/poor/guns are too rare its because GW designed them to have a certain weapon set. That doesn't mean fluffwise they're weaker on the equipment front and therefore shouldn't have power armour or rhinos or bolters.

You're confusing arguments here. I can't blame you because the guy I was responding to in that post is even more confused than you are. There are multiple independent concepts in play here that I have commented on:

1: Sisters do not have the same guns as Space Marines. Why they don't have them is irrelevant. Fluff about some "trinity" won't stop them from being blasted to pieces by the vastly superior firepower of a Space Marine chapter. Which is why they would be paired with huge formations of Imperial Guard, the Imperial Navy, Inquisition forces, etc. Hence the Codex: Witch Hunters.

2: Sisters fluff is better suited to a more unique army that isn't such an obvious and unsupported Space Marine derivative. This is just my opinion. The way the Sisters are currently portrayed is cliche, derivative, and inconsistent with the established canon, which has, in a lot of ways, forced the canon to be rewritten to allow them to exist, instead of the other way around.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:This is irrelevant. I didn't say "plays like". I said they're just supposed to be ladymarines. Probably to mollify the people who clamored for ladymarines back in the day. But their first, half-official (in that they had no models and only nominal rules) existence began as a ripoff of Marines (10 model squads armed exactly as a Space Marine Tactical Squad), and never got much better. Heck, they are the nuns to match the Space Marines' monks. Sister Sin wasn't even a Sororitas, she just happened to be a picture the Rogue Trader guys decided fit with their fluff page on the Ecclesiarchy. RT was full of crazy stuff like that.

They serve a completely different purpose fluff-wise. They are the Ecclesiarchy's leg breakers, and until recently the Ordo Heriticus's hit-girls too. They are bound to the existing structure of the imperium (unlike marines), and represent the most fanatically faithful the Imperium has to offer. They are an Internal affairs type of agency, prosecuting wars against heretical/traitorous guard and marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Likely I have far older models than you do, some of which still get used. That has nothing to do with my point. It wasn't that the models were old, it was that they were from a different period of the game's design. IGuardsmen used to carry las cannons on their shoulders. Eventually it was decided that was a bit unrealistic too.

In 2004 a the sisters got a few new models and they all fit the existing aesthetic, PA and all. and this is not a pissing contest over who has the most old models, that is rather pedantic and calling it even tangential to the subject at hand is rather generous. If I had said I had 1 old marine model it would not have made a difference.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I hate to say it again, but you've missed the point. I'm not disputing that they have power armor, because they most certainly do. I'm just saying they shouldn't, and in a separate point, that even if they changed the rules for them, the models could still be used. It's an opinion. You're getting confused because my posts contain both elements of my opinion, and then separate factual elements that counter poorly constructed arguments because A: I started playing this game a long time ago and B: have access to most of the books in question. To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units. If you tell me they aren't just a weaksauce rip off of Space Marines, I'll just kinda laugh at you because from the start, that's all they were, and it's barely changed.

1) Cheaper points cost, larger unit size, specialized weapon set, radically different vehicle set, army wide 6++, faithbased superpowers, lower WS, S, and T all make the army different mechanically.

2) Aesthetically all of the parochial imagery and and the focus on purification through fire are a definite step away.

3) Finally in the fluff they have found a wierd little niche as IA affairs/ecclesiarchal enforcers. They have found further distinguish in their rabid faith, and the 6++ and faith powers are good mechanical reinforcements of fluff. They may have started off as lady marines, but originally SM were convicts not monks trained from youth. Lots of things have changed since RT, and sisters have found a good role in the imperium.

There, I have disputed your claim on the three most relevant grounds in the game. If there is some other, equally relevant, method of judgment I would like to know what it is. In a game with aliens, there is only so much you can do with humans before they become weirder than the aliens.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, knew there would be a catch. It said the Ecclesiarchy can provide, not the Imperium or Adeptus Mechanicus can.

The Ecclisiarchy is one of the largest institutions in the galaxy, and they have a relatively small fighting force. It seems entirely reasonable that they can afford PA and Bolters. Besides I imagine that the most expensive part of making a marine isn't equipping them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, no, they don't have the same guns. They lack all of the Marines longer ranged weapons (sniper rifles, las cannons, missile launchers, plasma cannons), their heavy armor (Predators, Vindicators and Land Raiders), their medium range high punch weaponry (plasma guns, assault cannons), etc. Nevermind hand to hand where most of the Sisters are horribly overmatched. Not to mention not having hundreds of years of experience in their leaders, Terminator Armor... The list goes on. This isn't fanboyism. I am not a "fan" of anything but the game. The game says these things, not me. The only thing one might suggest a Sisters Order might have over Space Marines is their numbers.

Sisters certainly lack many of the weapons available to marines, but the ones they have are certainly adequate. Melta for vehicles/toughguys, flamethrowers for Hordes, bolters as general issue, they have their bases covered, especially since they like to see the heretic burn. They can't H2H a marine, of course not, good all around is vanilla marines hat, Sisters are shooters, trying to play them as a melee army makes no sense strategically and has little backing fluff wise. They have their 1 melee unit in the Sisters repentia, who are expecting to die, and their faith power represents that, but if you look at the one thing they are actually good at, it's cutting open tanks, and what do marines have more of than sisters? TANKS!

As far as fighting marines they have all the tools they need, and yeah they rely on outnumbering the marines. Marines are enhanced in every way known by the Imperium without resorting to chaos, so anything they field to bring them in line is either the same or worse, and therefor they are going to rely on numbers.

pretre wrote:@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1.

I've been pretty polite and reasonable. Most of the arguments against me have been rude and condescending. My first post was about whether or not the Sisters should expect new plastic models. If I read the thread title correctly, that's about as on topic as it gets. You actually took the discussion off topic. I simply followed because you asked a question. Threatening me for holding a contrary opinion actually seems to be the biggest violation of the rules in this thread so far. If "General Discussion" offends you, perhaps a different forum is more to your liking.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:My opinion really just boils back down to this:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:To me, I liked the idea of the Sisters back in the day, but not the execution. I played the game before they existed as models, and when they came out, it was obvious that GW was hoping to bank on the "everyone loves our Space Marines, maybe we can sell them ladymarines!" instead of actually creating a reasonable, or new, army. The basic Sisters are armed and armored like Space Marines, they ride in Space Marine tanks and their derivatives, they have mostly Space Marine equivalent units.

From the beginning, they were a lame Space Marine derivative instead of their own army, and have always felt that way. Making them burny and girls doesn't make them unique. The Salamanders are burny too. The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

And if you feel that lacking any kind of long ranged punch is not a liability against a superhuman foe that does have such weaponry, well, I'll let you believe that. Having served in the military and studied strategy and tactics, my belief lies elsewhere. GW can tell me lots of things, lol. But without a reasonable explanation, I chalk it up as believable as the terrible BL books like Battle of the Abyss. Sure, being more fragile, and with their most potent weapons having half of the range (and being duplicated by their opponents anyway), and being completely outclassed in every form of supporting fires, I can see how it would make sense that "more quite simply isn't needed". You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

I wasn't saying sisters shouldn't have long range or that it isn't an obviously crippling weakness in the army. I only meant they have a fluff reason for using short range weapons due to how GW made the army and not that they lack the resources even joe guardsman has access to.

Also, you could apply the same argument on Dark eldar, most of their codex isn't fluff, but a description of Commoragh and what Vect did. Evne though I collect the army there isn't much to go on aside from a few arch-typical sado masochist power mad army. Dark eldar are just evil space elves who juxtapose the nobility and purpose of the eldar. Being all women does make them unique, most people don't bat an eyelash at all wych armies wearing PVC or kinky female space elves of both flavours; its just accepted that eldar armies take Howling banshees and the like. The fact the entire army is made of women does matter in terms of how people percieve the army. Personally if SOB got a new dex I would hope for a necron style expansion, even complete overhaul of the fluff where before there was a fairly generic or limited range of what a necron could be.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

pretre wrote:@Vet Sgt: You might want to walk away while still 'technically' following Rule 1.

I've been pretty polite and reasonable. Most of the arguments against me have been rude and condescending. My first post was about whether or not the Sisters should expect new plastic models. If I read the thread title correctly, that's about as on topic as it gets. You actually took the discussion off topic. I simply followed because you asked a question. Threatening me for holding a contrary opinion actually seems to be the biggest violation of the rules in this thread so far. If "General Discussion" offends you, perhaps a different forum is more to your liking.

Iam sorry. I didn't mean to offend you at all, I just wanted to speak my mind from several of the comments made on this thread. If i used any vulgar language towards you then it was not my intention to do so out of any spite. If its came off topic then its because nobody has anything to add on that front.

Veteran Sergeant wrote: lame Space Marine derivative The Sisters are bad, cheap imitation Space Marines without any of the supporting fluff that makes Space Marines what they are.

How is this not flame bait in a sisters thread?

You are welcome to continue the little snide, childish comments though. They are about as effective as the use of "fanboy" and a pointless attempt to use disguised logical fallacies to refute my points.

And this is what I'm talking about from a rule 1 standpoint.

As I said, we are at fault for entertaining your OT points and thanks, but I'm quite familiar with what the forum is for.


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Also, coming into a thread asking when the new plastics are coming with the 'ol squat treatment' isn't the best of plans:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It actually surprises me that the Sisters haven't gotten the Squat treatment, as they're both hold-overs from the Rogue Trader days that never really gelled with the rest of the canon fluff.

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I think that maybe you honestly don't think that you're trying to antagonize folks, but if you aren't trying, you're still succeeding.

You don't see me popping into DE threads asking why they haven't been squatted and telling folks how they never really fit with the canon anyways.

Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Has anybody called you a name? I certainly don't have any hurt feelings either as this is the internet and lots of people sound worse than they intend. Refuting your claims shouldn't be viewed as aggressive behaviour, but as discussion. This has gotten out of hand though and perhaps enough is enough.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings.

Oh, don't go full martyr on us... I know it is a Sisters thread and all, but still.

My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Not mean, just too OT. Great for a new thread, not so great for trying to have a discussion about when new plastics are coming out. Feel free to start a new thread about your particular ideas about Sisters though. You might want to avoid the 'lame, derivative, etc' kind of negative language unless you want a negative response though.

Cheers!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, to be fair, the Dark Eldar were simply created as a response to the fan demand for them. White Dwarf used to have pictures of people's converted Golden Demon Chaos Eldar model entries and people asked why Fantasy had Dark Elves but 40K didn't have Dark Eldar. They never existed before, even as suggestion in the fluff. So they have no real back story. I think the Space Fetishist one is kinda weak, but that's what was established.

Anyway, I figure I've said all there is to say. I guess it was silly to assume that a contrary opinion can be expressed on the Internet without it degenerating quickly into name calling and hurt feelings. My original statement was just that I was surprised the GW support of Sisters had continued when so many other ideas in 40K that never gained much widespread acceptance by the GW staff or sales (Slaan, Zoats, Squats, Space Skaven Hrud, etc) had sorta fallen by the wayside and I didn't think the Sisters would get much priority in receiving new models. That was apparently too mean. I apologize. Please direct further comments to me via PM.

Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

Of course you can put forward a contrary opinion, you just did so by writing it down. But when two opinions refuse to give ground to the other and are contradictory there is little to be achieved in discussion; unless the dispute was caused by misinterpretation of language one side will just view the others as offensive. The whole point of discussion is that either an accomodation of ideas is made or both sides realise their views are essentially the same.

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

In fairness to Veteran Sergeant, he didn't call sisters fans sludge. He was referring to the fact that the accusations of fanboyism was lobbed at him, while others in the argument could just as easily be considered the same level of fanboy.

At any rate, I have my doubts that sisters will ever get plastic, but if they do, it is likely several years off. Even assuming that this is going to follow the BA model, we're still a couple years from that benchmark. Given that SoB are not interchangable with marines, I would push it back another year on top of that.

BA, DA, BT, SW, and Vanilla SM all share a common pool of models, they each have their uniques, but it usually amounts to more of troop type X, a unique-ish elite, a couple unique HQs, 1-3 peices of unique wargear, and some random add on parts that have little/no mechanical baggage. That is part of why marines are popular. You can buy a marine force and use most of it for several armies.

Sisters don't have any of that (other than sharing 3-4 random models with GK), and are probably the least played army. They are the only all metal army, the most expensive army, and they are rarely seen in game stores. Those factors conspire against them, heavily. Unless GW wants to go out on a limb and push them (taking time away from proven popular lines), we are going to have to wait until they have some down time, or until Ward decides that the sisters flavor needs to be changed and they should be grinding up greyknights as talismans of protection, we are stuck with the WD codex and armbreakingly heavy armycases full of pewter.

Armless Failure wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Calling sister fans 'sludge' is quite mean, actually.

In fairness to Veteran Sergeant, he didn't call sisters fans sludge. He was referring to the fact that the accusations of fanboyism was lobbed at him, while others in the argument could just as easily be considered the same level of fanboy.

At any rate, I have my doubts that sisters will ever get plastic, but if they do, it is likely several years off. Even assuming that this is going to follow the BA model, we're still a couple years from that benchmark. Given that SoB are not interchangable with marines, I would push it back another year on top of that.

BA, DA, BT, SW, and Vanilla SM all share a common pool of models, they each have their uniques, but it usually amounts to more of troop type X, a unique-ish elite, a couple unique HQs, 1-3 peices of unique wargear, and some random add on parts that have little/no mechanical baggage. That is part of why marines are popular. You can buy a marine force and use most of it for several armies.

Sisters don't have any of that (other than sharing 3-4 random models with GK), and are probably the least played army. They are the only all metal army, the most expensive army, and they are rarely seen in game stores. Those factors conspire against them, heavily. Unless GW wants to go out on a limb and push them (taking time away from proven popular lines), we are going to have to wait until they have some down time, or until Ward decides that the sisters flavor needs to be changed and they should be grinding up greyknights as talismans of protection, we are stuck with the WD codex and armbreakingly heavy armycases full of pewter.

But look at dark eldar, 13 years without any new models, barely played save for massed lance spam and with a considerably more sexualized image/ascetic/fluff than SOB. DE actually have dominatirx's in their army for christs sake! Then GW put in a huge amount of effort into basically bringing out the entire range in two years with excellent plastic models and a modern ruleset to make them an incredibly popular army.

You're right, probably not anytime soon mind you but its not as unprecedented as people make out.

And despite the DE being created the way they were, they actually ended up with a very cool backstory that explains why they would take the BDSM approach to combat (as much as any explanation would suffice).

Armless Failure wrote:And despite the DE being created the way they were, they actually ended up with a very cool backstory that explains why they would take the BDSM approach to combat (as much as any explanation would suffice).

Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures. A bit twilight, I confess, but it would have been neat anyways.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Um hm. I would have liked if they had maybe made some of the dark eldar aware that they're under a curse and maybe some who try to curb their natural dark natures.

There are plenty of forces in the fluff that have dark natures and are seeking redemption. Do we really need another one?