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Actually, I was allowing the inclusion of Sisters Repentia, but the ecclesiarchy models aren't Sisters of Battle. Like I said, the Witch Hunters codex gives you the option to replace the Sisters with Marines, or to take Imperial Guard. If that's the case, then the Ecclesiarchy models, Inquisitors, etc, are Witch Hunters models, not Sisters. Witch Hunters gave 4th Edition rules to the Sisters, but Witch Hunters was its own army, independent of them as troop types. Some of the models offered as part of Codex: Witch Hunters army actually predate that Codex anyway, like the Preachers and Confessors. Witch Hunters was a catch-all kind of codex for people to filed their Inquisitors and other models that had fallen by the wayside in other armies.

And I never owned a Squat army. I just used them as an example since they are another faction that was long ignored, poorly supported, and eventually gotten rid of entirely. I just like them mostly out of nostalgia for the old school game and their place in Fantasy in Space 40K. I've never owned a 40K Ork army (though I had Fantasy Orcs), and yet it's my favorite faction of them all just for the sheer fun and character of them as well. I think the Sororitas would have been much better modeled and fit into the canon better as a sort of Female Stormtroopers list. After all, that's more in line with the way they are written.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:At some point, however, GW decided to take the hodge-podge of disconnected fluff from Rogue Trader, and make sense out of it with a coherent narrative. Enter the transition to 2nd Edition. Space Marines become super warriors, selected from childhood, implanted with all sorts of cool things, including the Black Carapace. Power Armor becomes incredibly rare, used very little outside the Astartes, and by extremely powerful individuals. Why is this? Because the fluff for Power Armor now says that without a Black Carapace, it doesn't function nearly as well and the suits themselves are difficult to make and maintain. The Sisters, in the mean time, get no such fluff, barely more than few paragraphs and just become the incomprehensibly power armored female semi-equivalent of Space Marines, without any of the things that make Marines. Weaker, less well trained, and more fragile. Seems like where you'd want to concentrate your most valuable resources. Eventually they get a Codex in 2nd Edition, but it's hardly any better. It has a bunch of hodge-podge fluff of its own trying to explain the back story of the Sisters. Including the silly part of the Ecclesiarchy being allowed "no men under arms" being the reasoning for the Sisters. It's also incredibly silly. Form fitting corset power armor, double bolt pistols... Makes trucker hat biker dwarves look downright serious by comparison.

I think you've gotten a few things wrong here.

*dramatically blows dust off imaginary oversized fluff tome*

- It was never claimed that power armour now "doesn't function nearly as well", it's just that the person inside still moves and feels as being enclosed in a big suit of armour. It requires calibration and training to get it right and misses out on certain advanced features, whereas Space Marines are supposedly able to move as if naked and enjoy a dozen additional gadgets. The difference in armour protection is zero.
- Power armour is indeed difficult to make and maintain, that is why so few people outside the Astartes have them. There are few enough Inquisitors and SoB around to warrant getting the best.
- They are (physically) weaker and (somewhat) less well trained, but they are also more reliable - both politically as well as mentally. No geneseed corruption, absolute loyalty, resistant against Chaos. Big bonus versus "loose cannon" Marines, against which they are at times deployed. Successfully.
- The Ecclesiarchy is quite rich, but limited in what it is allowed to field as a military force. The logical conclusion is to make sure that this small military force receives the best that money (and influence) can buy.
- The "no men under arms" gap in the Decree Passive is rather fitting for a setting as "gothicrazy" as 40k and not any less reasonable than entire armies being lost in bureaucracy or reinforcements arriving at a battle 50 years late or Marines eating an enemy to steal his memories.
- The "corset" isn't an integral part of the armour, only decoration (or "dust cover" if you will). And why should the basic concept of power armour not allow for form-fitting suits? We're almost ready to build this stuff in the real world, it doesn't take much miniaturization to get to the 40k level (where we also have bionics that require a similar tech-level).
- I will also point out that SoB armour is actually only form-fitting if you look at Blanche's damn high-heel drawing; there are other official artworks where it looks considerably bigger. Marine armour only looks uberhuge because (aside from looking cool, which is the actual design decision behind it) Marines themselves are huge and Astartes armour is packed with dozens of additional gadgets such as advanced life support and drug-dispensers, waste recycler, etc. As far as size is concerned, I consider "digilasers" and floating skulls with miniature antigrav generators to be more questionable.

But hey, we can't all like everything. I understand that many may see the SoB as being cliché. It's all a matter of interpreting the setting and personal preferences.

[edit] Actually, scrap that - I vaguely remember reading that power armour uses electrically motivated fibre bundles. Such a system could easily be built into your jacket and your pants.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Actually, I was allowing the inclusion of Sisters Repentia, but the ecclesiarchy models aren't Sisters of Battle. Like I said, the Witch Hunters codex gives you the option to replace the Sisters with Marines, or to take Imperial Guard. If that's the case, then the Ecclesiarchy models, Inquisitors, etc, are Witch Hunters models, not Sisters. Witch Hunters gave 4th Edition rules to the Sisters, but Witch Hunters was its own army, independent of them as troop types. Some of the models offered as part of Codex: Witch Hunters army actually predate that Codex anyway, like the Preachers and Confessors. Witch Hunters was a catch-all kind of codex for people to filed their Inquisitors and other models that had fallen by the wayside in other armies.

Ecclesiarchy have always been SOB models. Check the old catalogs you were quoting. Ecclesiarchy and Frateris were listed on the SoB pages and were included in 2nd Ed SoB, Black Book SoB and C:CA SoB before C:WH. And C:WH was end of 3rd, not 4th, I believe. It wasn't a 'catch-all' codex. It, along with CH, was released to encourage interest in the Inquisitor game. Inquisitors were allies only before then.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Sororitas are mentioned in Rogue Trader, and all of their models are loosely based on the picture in that book of a Space Nun. And the Sisters of Battle have an entry in the 40K Black List codex that came with the 2nd Edition boxed set as well as short fluff in the Codex Imperialis. Them finally getting miniatures and a Codex was a result of fans asking for one. Dark Eldar didn't exist back in the old days either, but enough people showed up to GW events with converted armies of them that GW figured they could try and make some money off them.

Sister Sin from Rogue Trader: http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj276/lordhumongous/rainbow.jpg

You can find the entire page with the short paragraph on them if you're industrious enough to Google search Sororitas Rogue Trader. I just don't know if it is kosher to direct link pages from what is GW IP.

I know sororitas existed under RT largely in the background, but they only had odd figures. One of the first is here at the bottom numbered #27, I've seen her in adverts described as Sister or Battle Sister, IIRC. But she just looks likes she's in skinny space marine armour.

The point was that they didn't really come into the game with a codex and range of models until the end of 2nd ed, Grey Knights also had had rules under RT and 2nd ed, but didn't get their codex until later, 3rd/4th, I'm not sure when.

BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

Actually, the term they originally used was "relatively useless" without the Black Carapace. Your tome isn't dusty enough it seems.

However, that aside, nearly all of the Sisters armor looks pretty form fitting, boob plates, and all.
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/7/3/1234127/three%20sisters.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gHu9a4YTj38/TrlD9y-gutI/AAAAAAAADCI/GbiRwhbMwdk/s1600/sisters_of_battle.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/40K/SistersRedBlack.jpg
As far as the what "should" or "shouldn't" be within the realm of miniaturization is somewhat suspect. After all, most things in the 40K universe are pretty large, with external cabling and heavy duty materials. Things like digital lasers are alien tech, not human. I mean, if it's accepted that power armor is big and bulky (your first point), it seems difficult to believe it can also be form fitting and miniaturized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

Nobody knows, lol. Maybe she's just a bitch.

The again, the Rainbow Warriors Chapter of Space Marines disappeared at some point, so maybe heresy.

Power armour is big and bulky because Imperials tend to slap dozens of kilos of armour plating and subsystems onto it - the basic system, the fibre bundles, would actually be pretty slim. Given that the Sisters' power armour is basically a "lite" variant of the Marine version that provides as much armoured protection (2 inches, if you want to go by the fluff in the Angels of Death Codex) but foregoes many of its advanced subsystems, I don't find it hard to believe at all. In fact, you could even say Marine armour is pretty slim itself, when you keep the physiology of a Marine's body in mind.

As far as Sister Sin is concerned, the following is an excerpt from the 3E Codex WD Design Notes, an article in WD292 by Andy Hoare, talking about the Sororitas' history (both as a product as well as within the setting) and what their missions are:
"The Rogue Trader art even shows a Battle Sister exacting that vengeance upon a Space Marine, so this seemed particularly appropriate. In fact, the Space Marine is from the "Rainbow Warriors" Chapter, and as we haven't heard of them for some time I guess the Sisters' mission was successful!

So, yes, heresy.

Why so much angst over Sisters of Battle armour?

There are plenty of other female models in 40K that are slightly sexualised but don't get flagged up.

ie:
Eldar howling Banshees
Eldar guardians (revealing tight mesh body glove armour)
Dark Eldar Warriors
Dark Eldar Wyches

There are also other sci fi universes that whilst (claiming) they're more serious than 40k still have this without any logical justification; but ultimately isn't flagged up. ie Mass effect and femsheps armour

Trying to realistically represent space nuns with gunz is kind of doomed to fail and theres no reason to get so riled over minor ascetic design of an armies models.

Fluff wise, they can change whatever they want. Currently, FFG rogue trader and Deathwatch have it where the armour with the black carapace becomes like a second skin to the space marine and offers no impediment to his superhuman reflexes. Sisters of battle aren't encumbered per sae since they have a large power pack and are moving slower so their is less pressure on the armour.

Also, marines, are huge! Titus is meant to be 700lbs+7ft tall, and in HH Logan is described as being proportioned in the chest like on the armour. Thats not all armour, most suits are filled by the warrior himself who is significantly bigger than a petite sister of battle.

I'd expect any new plastic models to be bulkier than the recent dark ledar models to emphasise the latters elegence and grace, but they'll probably stick with the general profile as its established in most artwork.

SoB totally need a plastic kit. Hands down. They would be one of the coolest armies ever.

I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

Crimson wrote:

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.

Have you thought of using Dark Eldar warriors? I think the armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks.

Howard A Treesong wrote:BTW - why is sister sin killing a space marine??

A large part of it is an 1980s injoke on the Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior in an operation by French (fleur de lys, etc..) foreign intelligence codenamed "Opération Satanique", which was prepared by Christine Cabon, a female french officer who went fugitive for a while after the events.

That said, you might also have a look at the recent Space Wolves Codex. Space Wolves and Sister of Battles bloodily clash there too over "differences" in their opinions and the Wolves' perceived lack of faith (though its the Wolves that jump them there, attacking the Ecclesiarchy by ambush and without warning or specific reason). Presumably, Sister's consider alot of things traitors and heretics, even when the Imperium at large (or even only the Inquistion) doesn't.

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Have you thought of using Dark Eldar warriors? I think the armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks.

Yes I have, and I made an inquisitor out of them. But it is too much work to do an entire army that way.

Crimson wrote:
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

I would say so. The "elite level" of their equipment has been a major point of their fluff, and considering how much things they have already lost I'd hate to see them being relegated to become "slightly better IG" just because to have Space Marines stand out more. Carapace could easily make an appearance for novice squads, though. I would also like to see the "meatshield" militia pop up again.

As far as Faith is concerned, I do think that this aspect can indeed make a huge difference to an army, it boils down to how they are incorporated - i.e. how they can be used and how much they are able to influence the game. It is rules such as these that set all of 40k's armies apart more than a 1 point difference in some stat line, imo. At least mechanics-wise. Stylewise, I would play SoB even when they'd only be yet another variant of Marines. At least I'd much prefer this to making them even closer to IG. Without power armour, some of that "knightly flair" would just get lost, imo.

Crimson wrote:
This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

I don't know, I don't find them that similar to marines. The difference in toughness and limited weaponry do make a pretty significant difference. I loved playing SoB back in the day, but played one battle with marines and immediately knew it wasn't the army for me. I found the play style to be quite different (although it was BT I tried, not vanilla marines, maybe sisters are closer to vanilla marines?)

I agree with your comments on some form of carapace armoured sister or auxilliary unit -- which is why I liked the inclusion of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and used them extensively while it lasted. The exclusion of the storm troopers is one of the major things holding me back from having another go with Sisters (I'm playing IG now in the second life with WH40K, it was back in 3rd ed. when I used sisters and missed-out on 4th ed. entirely). As Lynata says, carapace armoured novices could be an idea. Meatshield militia would be cool alongside the battle conclave. A special character that allows battle conclaves to be considered troops similar to how Coteaz makes inquisitorial henchmen troops in C:GK would be cool, too.

On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Zweischneid wrote:Presumably, Sister's consider alot of things traitors and heretics, even when the Imperium at large (or even only the Inquistion) doesn't.

Aye, though it always depends a little on the spiritual guidance they receive from the Canoness that commands them at a time.

Here's an interesting snippet from the official Armageddon campaign website: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084051/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html

NWansbutter wrote:I agree with your comments on some form of carapace armoured sister or auxilliary unit -- which is why I liked the inclusion of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and used them extensively while it lasted.

Understandable. Although I never used them, ISTs are a cool concept and just look stunning, designwise, so I can relate.
I wonder how a carapace unit with lasguns would fare - they'd have better protection than Guardsmen, but worse weapons than Storm Troopers. Interesting go-between or fail? Would it just hinge on the point cost, or would they require some sort of special rule to make them useful?

NWansbutter wrote:On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Maybe that was referring to counts-as Repentia? I know some people don't really like their BDSM'ish look, even though there's some fluff behind it. That said, the very first Repentia still wore parts of their armour, but between this amazon cliché and the fetish girls, I have to say I prefer the latter, as it just comes off as more grimdark.

Lynata wrote:Understandable. Although I never used them, ISTs are a cool concept and just look stunning, designwise, so I can relate.
I wonder how a carapace unit with lasguns would fare - they'd have better protection than Guardsmen, but worse weapons than Storm Troopers. Interesting go-between or fail? Would it just hinge on the point cost, or would they require some sort of special rule to make them useful?

Yes, I love the Kasrkin models especially.

As for carapace with lasguns, that's basically what the Inquisitorial Storm Troopers were ... I mean, hellguns are just lasguns with AP5 which is as good as a lasgun except in Guard-on-Guard incidents or fighting Orks. They were still fine, IMO. Most of my opponents in those "good old days" were MEQ.

Lynata wrote:

NWansbutter wrote:On the topic of using Dark Eldar (or Eldar?) minis for sisters, which models from those lines are wearing power armour equivalent?

Maybe that was referring to counts-as Repentia? I know some people don't really like their BDSM'ish look, even though there's some fluff behind it. That said, the very first Repentia still wore parts of their armour, but between this amazon cliché and the fetish girls, I have to say I prefer the latter, as it just comes off as more grimdark.

No, I think Totalwar1402 (who first mentioned Dark Eldar minis) was referring to regular battle sisters because s/he said: "I think [Dark Eldar] armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks."

NWansbutter wrote:
No, I think Totalwar1402 (who first mentioned Dark Eldar minis) was referring to regular battle sisters because s/he said: "I think [Dark Eldar] armour profile is very similar if you added bolters n backpacks."

Something like my female inquisitor here, perhaps?


DE armour has that corset thing going, which is kinda similar to what SoBs have.

One thing I'd like to note, that Eldar are taller than humans, so sisters made out of DE will end up as freakishly tall.

Nice conversion.

Crimson wrote:
I think sisters fit 40K lore perfectly. They epitomise the crazy religious side of the Imperium like no other army.

I'd really love to see plastic sisters, and the cost is not the main reason. I love customising and converting models, but metal is just a pain to work with. I want to convert my own crazy rag-tag space nuns.


This being said, the sisters are a problematic army game-wise. They are too similar to marines, and I do not think that crappier statline and some faith rules do enough to set them apart. (Then again, we have half a dozen different marine armies too...)
Personally I'd like to see diversification of basic sisters themselves. There could be carapace armoured sisters as well, the power armour perhaps reserved only to more veteran units. This would be good as no imperial army uses 4+ saves extensively. But this probably would be too big of a shake up at this point.

They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They need to also fix the SoB to having to use heavy weapons teams too since their Power Armor by the fluff lacks the strength enhancing capabilities of the Space Marines armor. Makes no sense they can heft heavy weapons around like it's no big deal when they are only marginally stronger than an Imperial Guardsman and probably somewhat smaller framed. Carapace Sisters definitely make sense for their line troops. Keeps them as "elites" and falls more in line with the fluff since the Sisters are essentially female Storm Troopers, not female Space Marines. Let them keep Power Armor for more elite units I guess to give them some individuality as an army rather than Girl Guard.

Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough. I wouldn't imagine energy weapons having much kick at all making multi-meltas a non issue, and guardsmen can lift heavy flamers, so again not a problem.

And no, sisters do not need to move their armor down to carapace, excepting elites. A) I don't want to have to rebuy my army a third time. And B) The armor may be similar to marines, but T4 is certainly noticeable enough to distinquished. They are more different from marines than CSM are from marines. Giving them access to inquisitors again would be awesome, and a slightly cheaper Inq stormtroopers, or novice sisters would be grand (though carapace armored novice sisters would make them slightly more marine ripoffs).

Now sisters repentia are a unit I have an issue with. They are obviously make to make fanboys into BDSM happy, and that's just creepy. And hits last units with no defenses are not a particularly attractive option, especially without a transport option.

Armless Failure wrote:Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

The problem with the Sisters models is they're just outdated. And while I sympathize with the idea of re-buying armies, the question was how to make them better fit the fluff. Besides, existing Sisters don't really look all that "power armor-ey" except for the backpacks. Take the backpacks off, and they might as well have carapace armor on, lol.

Arbites:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Rob_Jedi/Work%20In%20Progress/Arbites.jpg

Sisters:
http://www.luxions-workshop.com/sob/images/Blue_Robe-SoB_0101.jpg

Existing Sisters models could be used. New plastics would just be modeled without the power backbacks. Heavy weapons teams just get mounted on larger bases (essentially what IGuard players had to do with their old models).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:Having lifted a 50cal machinegun before, I can say that most people serving in a military force have the strength to lift them, but firing one while standing and holding it is, not going to happen. Given that Bolter Weapons canonically do not have the kick of normal projectile weapons, I would say that given the strength enhancers present even in the sister's stripped down versions would be plenty enough.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

The problem with the Sisters models is they're just outdated. And while I sympathize with the idea of re-buying armies, the question was how to make them better fit the fluff. Besides, existing Sisters don't really look all that "power armor-ey" except for the backpacks. Take the backpacks off, and they might as well have carapace armor on, lol.

Arbites:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Rob_Jedi/Work%20In%20Progress/Arbites.jpg

Sisters:
http://www.luxions-workshop.com/sob/images/Blue_Robe-SoB_0101.jpg

Existing Sisters models could be used. New plastics would just be modeled without the power backbacks. Heavy weapons teams just get mounted on larger bases (essentially what IGuard players had to do with their old models).

Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

A .50cal weighs almost 85lbs without the tripod, and unloaded. Yeah, I mean, sure, most reasonably strong people could lift it, and definitely carry it. But in any manner closer to a firing stance that is entirely arm supported like the models show? And then with a giant belt of ammunition attached to it? Doubt it. I've carried the Marine Corps' heavy weapons. It isn't fun, lol. Most people (including real world Marines) would have a hard time shoulder firing a medium machinegun, let alone a heavy one.

andrewm9 wrote:Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

I think you missed the point. It was that changing the armor of the Sisters in game wouldn't mean having to abandon the models.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:Well if I had to base how tough a material was by how it looked I woudln't think that a Leman Russ' front armor equalled a Land Raider's at all. For that matter a SM's armor looks no more impressive than an Arbite's either. The Space Marine is just taller and wider than the Arbites. Its about what the material is made of. A painted sheet of armaplas (carapace) looks much like a painted sheet of ceramite or admantium for that matter.

I think you missed the point. It was that changing the armor of the Sisters in game wouldn't mean having to abandon the models.

They don't have to abandon them in the first place just to say they have power armor. They look like they have power armor to me. Their current look is fine to me.

Armless Failure wrote:The sister's power armor does include many of the same systems including some strength assistant features, even if less than a marine.

Codex: Witch Hunters:
"must forego the more advanced life support and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines"

Their armor obviously not carapace near the top (especially around the neck), and there is nothing to gain from moving the sisters down an armor grade.

The Scouts look pretty similar around the neck and they have a "carapace" armor too.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-viewimage.jsp?i=152637&m=2&w=800

As far as there being "nothing to gain", that's just a manner of opinion. I think it puts the sisters closer in line with their fluff. The Storm Troopers are the Schola Pregenium's elite, best of the best troops and they are unmodified humans wearing carapace armor. Seems pretty logical that the Sisters would be very similar to them. Being normal humans outfitted with inferior grade (yet still absurdly expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture) power armor doesn't make sense to me. In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here. I mean, I can't argue what you think is cool, but I think Sisters that were a bit grittier and less of a joke would be cooler than them being weaksauce, nonsensical rip-offs of Space Marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Codex: Witch Hunters:
"must forego the more advanced life support and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines"

They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Being normal humans outfitted with inferior grade (yet still absurdly expensive, rare, and difficult to manufacture) power armor doesn't make sense to me. In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here. I mean, I can't argue what you think is cool, but I think Sisters that were a bit grittier and less of a joke would be cooler than them being weaksauce, nonsensical rip-offs of Space Marines.

SM ripoffs, hardly. Necrons are closer to marines than sisters mechanically (even after the new dex). And how does PA make them any less gritty or any more joke worthy? They already have a tank that shoots missiles out of a pipe organ, they are obviously going off "rule of cool" in a less gritty manner. Infact everyone but IG and CW Eldar are un-gritty. And this particular point:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In fact, the only reason they have power armor is due to artwork from more than twenty years ago. Something that old would be scoffed at in terms of a canonicity argument here.

is both vague and a logical falacy (non-sequiter). Many fluff elements started out in a piece of art and grew out from there. There is plenty of fluff subsequent stating that SoB wear power armor.

Armless Failure wrote:They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Yup.

At least as per GW's descriptions, all power armour has always increased the user's strength (see the Rogue Trader, 2E Wargear or Inquisitor RPG books). The small frame of the SoB version simply doesn't allow the same augmentation as the Astartes variant does. It's a "lite" variant that focuses entirely on armoured protection, as the Sisters do not operate as independently as most Marine Chapters. The Angel-pattern's strength augmentation is sufficient to carry heavy weapons, whereas it doesn't make much sense to try and equal a Marine in close combat, as the latter's biological superiority will always have him come out on top anyways, so they focus on the best ways of putting rogue Marines down before they can get to them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As far as there being "nothing to gain", that's just a manner of opinion. I think it puts the sisters closer in line with their fluff.

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce, which obviously includes powered armour. And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

Storm Troopers are multi-purpose assault and infiltration specialists, Sisters are dedicated shock troops with a representation role. Light infantry and heavy infantry, if you will. This is reflected in both their training as well as their gear. Robbing the SoB of the power armour they had since the days of RT just strikes me as an attempt to further elevate Space Marines beyond the small intended gap. Here's a thought: If they are supposed to be more unique, how about stopping to steal their gear and the gothic visual style of the Sisters?

Given that Sisters and Marines popped up at the same time, I just don't know where that "rip off" crap is supposed to come from. SoB are sufficiently gritty due to their background and psychology, not by nerfing them to further "Mereen Awsumness". I'm also pretty sure that GW has both artwork as well as models of Sisters that are newer than 20 years...

Lynata wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:They must forgo the MORE ADVANCED strength enhancing abilities, it doesn't say all of them, It does not say Forgo the strength enhancing abilities (and S3 gets that across pretty well).

Yup.

Yep. The abilities that the Sisters armor gives them is the strength assist that overcomes the weight of the armor itself so that they can move freely. The fact that Space Marines are freaking huge and absurdly strong is what allows them to wander around with heavy weapons. What makes the sororitas able to do it is the fact that they are poorly thought out ripoffs of Space Marines and the fact that their models are holdovers from an older edition of the game.

At least as per GW's descriptions, all power armour has always increased the user's strength (see the Rogue Trader, 2E Wargear or Inquisitor RPG books).

Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own. So obviously there's more to hunting down renegade Space Marine Chapters than just having power armor. It might be something like supporting units and naval power. Just maybe.

Robbing the SoB of the power armour they had since the days of RT

They didn't have anything in the Rogue Trader days other than a picture and a small blurb about how they were enforcers of genetic testing. There are no game references to them in any of the published books from Rogue Trader. They don't even have any characters listed in books where astropaths had stats. In fact, they didn't even exist as models for the first ten years of the game and were only a blurb and an unfinished entry in the Black Book codex before 1997.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The abilities that the Sisters armor gives them is the strength assist that overcomes the weight of the armor itself so that they can move freely. The fact that Space Marines are freaking huge and absurdly strong is what allows them to wander around with heavy weapons. What makes the sororitas able to do it is the fact that they are poorly thought out ripoffs of Space Marines and the fact that their models are holdovers from an older edition of the game.

1) Repeated claims that Sisters are Marine ripoffs without actually dealing with the counter-argument brought against the point during it's previous statement do not constitute a reasonable debate/discussion of a point. My counter-argument to your point is that Necrons are more mechanically similar to Marines than SoB. If you think they play similarly, you have either never played sisters or played them VERY poorly. They require significantly different tactics, and their style of combat is rather unique to them.

2) The strength assist does overcome the weight of the armor, but at no point does it say that the armor's weight is the total amount the armor can move. There is no statement what so ever that makes it seem even unlikely that SoB PA has the capacity to lift an HB. We have evidence that PA does provide enough strength to carry an HB, cite your source for evidence otherwise

3) Lots of people use old models, I have about 15 metal tactical marines, does the fact that they are old and have funny looking bolters mean that they are no longer valid since they aren't wielding the bolters that look like the current ones?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Nope. Rogue Trader says nothing about strength enhancement, only that the suit replicates the wearer's movements to offset its own weight. The reference in 2E Wargear is actually very specifically about the Space Marine version and refers to "his" strength. Being published in 2001, I don't think we can consider anything in the Inquisitor book as "always".

So we can't cite official sources that don't support your argument, or we can't cite ones you don't like/haven't read?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

No. SoB have always been described as being equipped with the best the Imperium/AdMech can produce,

Citation Needed.

While probably not a direct quote, there is some text to that effect in C:WH.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

And since their duties include hunting down renegade Marine Chapters, it makes sense for them to sport similar gear, so that they don't lack behind in this aspect in addition to being "just" human.

They don't have the skill or weaponry to hunt down Space Marine Chapters on their own. So obviously there's more to hunting down renegade Space Marine Chapters than just having power armor. It might be something like supporting units and naval power. Just maybe.