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Arandmoor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Dude, I use Crisis Suits because they move, shoot, move.

The ability to step out from behind cover, land a few shots then get back is essential for the longer ranged weaposn on the Crisis Suit. The ability to fire off shots at close range, then step back a bit keeps the assaulters a bit further away when using the shorter ranged weapons on the suits (well for those that actually use them, I prefer dancing around at long range).

The fact that the main rulebook has an entire subtype more or less devoted to the capabilities of the Tau jet pack makes me think that it's probably going to stay a while. After-all, Eldar Jetbikes have had their special movement for a while too.

Like I said, while I'm sure move-shoot-move is a total hoot to play *as*, it's not fun to play *against*. You're not the only one playing here. There is at least one other person there who is silently cursing *at* your crisis suits as they do their little dance (and silently wishing he had more guess weapons).

However, I was sure GW wouldn't leave Necrons stranded without any AT after they nerfed gauss in 5th. Don't count on the blurb in the BRB saving your jetpacks from anything. At least you'll be getting a new codex right before or right after a new edition comes out.

...and I still think it's going away. if the rumors are true about crisis suits going to 1-5 with a significant price drop (and/or moving to troops if you take a crisis commander) then I just don't see the jetpack staying the same. If either of those are true crisis suits will become jump infantry.

As for eldar, they may get to keep it, but that's because the range on an eldar jetbike is a little bit shorter than the range on a crisis suit.

Anything with a jetpack can JSJ and I hardly think it's any more annoying than the nap required while your Green Tide (Ork) opponent moves their 1000 models around. Considering the maximum number of suits in a non-Farsight army is 15....it doesn't take too long to move them around when BA players have several 10-man units of jump infantry. The only reason other jump infantry don't JSJ is because, for the most part, they're marines and marines don't JSJ because they want to assault. Currently JSJ is the only viable tactic availaible to Tau players and the only way it will change is if suits are not jump infantry in the next codex or the rules change in 6th edition.

I'm thinking about picking up Tau from my orks. I'll admit i'm waiting for a new codex because I don't really care what they change, I just want a viable static gunline. I've had ork boys in trucks running the gauntlet of enemy fire for years now and I'd like to play the other side.

But I really really really don't want to play as another, ok everyone get in transports move shoot/assault whichever you happen to be better at.

Arandmoor wrote:
Like I said, while I'm sure move-shoot-move is a total hoot to play *as*, it's not fun to play *against*. You're not the only one playing here. There is at least one other person there who is silently cursing *at* your crisis suits as they do their little dance (and silently wishing he had more guess weapons).

However, I was sure GW wouldn't leave Necrons stranded without any AT after they nerfed gauss in 5th. Don't count on the blurb in the BRB saving your jetpacks from anything. At least you'll be getting a new codex right before or right after a new edition comes out.

...and I still think it's going away. if the rumors are true about crisis suits going to 1-5 with a significant price drop (and/or moving to troops if you take a crisis commander) then I just don't see the jetpack staying the same. If either of those are true crisis suits will become jump infantry.

As for eldar, they may get to keep it, but that's because the range on an eldar jetbike is a little bit shorter than the range on a crisis suit.

Really? Your opponent wont like playing against it so it should go away? How many opponents like Reanimation Protocols or nibbly scarabs, or melta guns and dropships, or blood angels and their jump packs, or wolves and their long fangs. I should hope my opponent doesnt like seeing my army. If you want all the little pieces to do the same thing go play checkers.

Jefffar wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Better at shooting, worse in assault.

Make them even worse in assault? Can it be done?

WS1.

I'm pretty sure that every Tau player out there would happily eat army-wide WS 1 if the new base Tau BS went up to 4.

Pretty much, making them WS 1 really doesn't make them any worse, it just means a few more models die before your swept instead of after.

To quote the masters, "A disadvantage that isn't a disadvantages is worth no points". While the quote is from a different game, the principle still stands. It's a basic principle behind balance. Effectively a corollary to "Something that brings an advantage is worth points".

Basically, there's no way WS1 would "pay" for BS4. Not without a significant price hike to the unit in question. The difference between BS3 and 4 is significant. Unfortunately, the difference between WS2 and 1 is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CpatTom wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:
Like I said, while I'm sure move-shoot-move is a total hoot to play *as*, it's not fun to play *against*. You're not the only one playing here. There is at least one other person there who is silently cursing *at* your crisis suits as they do their little dance (and silently wishing he had more guess weapons).

However, I was sure GW wouldn't leave Necrons stranded without any AT after they nerfed gauss in 5th. Don't count on the blurb in the BRB saving your jetpacks from anything. At least you'll be getting a new codex right before or right after a new edition comes out.

...and I still think it's going away. if the rumors are true about crisis suits going to 1-5 with a significant price drop (and/or moving to troops if you take a crisis commander) then I just don't see the jetpack staying the same. If either of those are true crisis suits will become jump infantry.

As for eldar, they may get to keep it, but that's because the range on an eldar jetbike is a little bit shorter than the range on a crisis suit.

Really? Your opponent wont like playing against it so it should go away? How many opponents like Reanimation Protocols or nibbly scarabs, or melta guns and dropships, or blood angels and their jump packs, or wolves and their long fangs. I should hope my opponent doesnt like seeing my army. If you want all the little pieces to do the same thing go play checkers.

There's a difference here though. I specifically stated that I think it's going away because of the rumor's price-drop and squad size increase. RP got effectively nerfed from 4+ to 5+ along with a points/area nerf on the rez orb, but it was all balanced out by a points/gun effectiveness/armor reduction to immortals and warriors.

If crisis suits get buffed by a points reduction and/or a squad size increase I would bet money on them losing move-shoot-move because it's an annoying mechanic to play against, it's worth points, and it's loss would justify significant buffs elsewhere.

Yes, remove the game mechanic that made Tau into Tau. Thats the best solution.

I hope that they will get it to Ward so he can rape their lore.
Making them kill all the Etherials and swear their loyalty to the Lord of Macragge.

Just as planned.

Brother Coa wrote:I hope that they will get it to Ward so he can rape their lore.
Making them kill all the Etherials and swear their loyalty to the Lord of Macragge.

Just as planned.

Actually the way ward changes fluff fits rather well with the tau. They bro fist all the time! And was anyone else disappointed that the IoM got the monkey. The tau should have got him. He makes more sense with us.

Besides, mattward is just a story told to scare children.

Arandmoor wrote:
There's a difference here though. I specifically stated that I think it's going away because of the rumor's price-drop and squad size increase. RP got effectively nerfed from 4+ to 5+ along with a points/area nerf on the rez orb, but it was all balanced out by a points/gun effectiveness/armor reduction to immortals and warriors.

If crisis suits get buffed by a points reduction and/or a squad size increase I would bet money on them losing move-shoot-move because it's an annoying mechanic to play against, it's worth points, and it's loss would justify significant buffs elsewhere.

This:

shock_at wrote:Yes, remove the game mechanic that made Tau into Tau. Thats the best solution.

The only way to make them competitive if you remove JSJ would be to buff T, W, and Sv. Tau aren't super tough or hard to kill (thats all the factions that aren't Tau or Eldar), they are mobile, and capable of staying out of the enemies range through superior movement and range.

Next are crisis suits gonna get powerweapons? Cause players know how that mechanic works?

CpatTom wrote:
The only way to make them competitive if you remove JSJ would be to buff T, W, and Sv. Tau aren't super tough or hard to kill (thats all the factions that aren't Tau or Eldar), they are mobile, and capable of staying out of the enemies range through superior movement and range.

Next are crisis suits gonna get powerweapons? Cause players know how that mechanic works?

And then they wouldn't be jump infantry anymore so might as well make them weak dreadnoughts...

agnosto wrote:
Anything with a jetpack can JSJ and I hardly think it's any more annoying than the nap required while your Green Tide (Ork) opponent moves their 1000 models around. Considering the maximum number of suits in a non-Farsight army is 15....it doesn't take too long to move them around when BA players have several 10-man units of jump infantry. The only reason other jump infantry don't JSJ is because, for the most part, they're marines and marines don't JSJ because they want to assault. Currently JSJ is the only viable tactic availaible to Tau players and the only way it will change is if suits are not jump infantry in the next codex or the rules change in 6th edition.

Actually, I think you will find that BA players don't JSJ because assault marines don't have jetpacks, they have jump packs.

Edited down to the relevant section

Arandmoor wrote:
There's a difference here though. I specifically stated that I think it's going away because of the rumor's price-drop and squad size increase. RP got effectively nerfed from 4+ to 5+ along with a points/area nerf on the rez orb, but it was all balanced out by a points/gun effectiveness/armor reduction to immortals and warriors.

If crisis suits get buffed by a points reduction and/or a squad size increase I would bet money on them losing move-shoot-move because it's an annoying mechanic to play against, it's worth points, and it's loss would justify significant buffs elsewhere.

The Crisis Suits, and virtually everything else in the Tau codex, are already over priced. I could easily see it (and everything else) dropping 10 to 20% in point cost without cutting into their abilities significantly. It's also there for a stylistic reason for it.

Incidentally, I don't consider Resurrection Protocols to really be a nerf compared to WBB. You can bring models back between the shooting and assault phase, it can no longer be bypassed short of wiping out the entire squad, and you can move it to a 4+ with a simple squad upgrade. My circle of players have found out that 20 warriors + ghost ark + rez orb = a unit you just can't kill no matter what you shoot it with.

Getting rid of JSJ? That is right after BS4 on my "things I do not want" list.

Its the most tau thing I can think of, mobile fire power.

Using the excuse "it is annoying to play against" is totally ridiculous. Every army has something like this, some armies have many. Tau have units that can JSJ, its hardly the most annoying thing ever when you compare it to say, that dreadnought that BA have that can keep attacking after it causes wounds. You have to counter it, just like you do with every other army.

If it takes too long than I have no idea how you deal with hordes or moving ANYTHING 6" in any direction. They are in squads of 3, it wont ever take that long.


JSJ is the tau maneuver, if they removed that, they would have to replace it with some new unique feature.

Besides, it's not like the Tau are doing anything else with their assault phase anyway.

Jefffar wrote:Besides, it's not like the Tau are doing anything else with their assault phase anyway.

QFT. We really only get 2 phases, at least let us do something in assault other than roll armor saves and fail leadership tests.

Jefffar wrote:
Incidentally, I don't consider Resurrection Protocols to really be a nerf compared to WBB. You can bring models back between the shooting and assault phase, it can no longer be bypassed short of wiping out the entire squad, and you can move it to a 4+ with a simple squad upgrade. My circle of players have found out that 20 warriors + ghost ark + rez orb = a unit you just can't kill no matter what you shoot it with.

Get something that doesn't suck in CC to assault the block of warriors and sweep them, or level enough heavy bolters at the unit to force them to take LD tests. Once they fail with a good number of models waiting for RP rolls, you'll understand.

WBB/RP has ways around it the necron player can do nothing about. M-S-M does not unless the Tau player makes a mistake.

Besides which, removing WBB/RP in no way compares to removing move-shoot-move. RP is core to necrons as a whole. Tau have no such "core rule" to my knowledge that could be removed. It would be more like decreasing all Tau pulse weapon strength to 3, and changing rail guns to S9 AP2. Saying "remove RP" is more like saying "hey Tau...enjoy your new lasguns and lascannons!" than "no more move-shoot-move".

Also, if they were to drop the price on crisis suits and increase their squad sizes, what else could be taken away to compensate? Sure a minor price drop could probably be justified "just because" considering everyone else in the game have seen price drops, but a significant price drop and increased squad sizes? And the possibility of crisis suits as troops with a certain kind of HQ?

What could justify all that at once?

Well shooting casualties don't reduce LD so breaking form shooting with LD 10 is pretty rare (ie about 1 in 12 chance).

Being swept in combat was a way around WBB anyway, doesn't disprove that RP has far less ways around it.

Also with RP you can have a model reanimate twice in the same turn. Couldn't with WBB.

Finally a skilled opponent can mitigate or negate JSJ. The Crisis suit weapons are not particularly long ranged, so be careful positioning of their units, the opponent can force the Crisis Suit to jump into a place where the second jump will not provide them protection or escape.

Gameplay wise: Obviously make the Tau competitive again while retaining what they're meant to be: long range/shooty and inferior in close range combat. However the Tau still need some close range capabilities to retain competitiveness. Demirug/Nicassar models as well.

Fluff wise: Escalate their level of interactions (and war) with the Imperium, Tyranids, as well as the Necron Sautekh Dynasty which is on the Eastern Fringe. Make them at least a semi-important player in the setting. Would also like to learn more about Tau society/city life.

Losing JSJ is like taking chainswords from Space Marines....(Hyperbole)

JSJ may be annoying to deal with but so is dealing with taking 48 attacks on a turn 2 charge from a brood of infiltrating Genestealers...I dont like it but i dont clamor for the removal of the Scout/infiltrate Rule to accomodate my dislike of having my models muched in turn 2.

JSJ is a Rule the Tau have, almost exclusively, and can use against all other races to negate their horrible CC stats. Leave it.

so apart from JSJ, what do people think about transports? open topped firing platforms? keep what they have?

I don't know, CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT. ok, jokes aside. I don't think many people expected vehicles for necrons so what is expected for Tau vehicles?

I don't see the Tau getting much benefit from open topped transport without some new unit to go with it.

I think this one might be an Auxiliary special.

open topped transports could do damage though, have 12 FW rapid firing out of it while being in relative safety

That would require said transport to move within 12 inches of the hostile unit.

At that range

1)Disruption Pods stop working
2) Anything can assault you.

as a strange aside, since I live in Japan, I'd be all for the anime look

I have access to a ton of parts for various gundam/macross/other anime at very very cheap rates including some very over the top super size guns at like 800 yen as well as some shields too I can mount as extra armor. Only tough part is getting the right sizes for conversions.

If it'd be close enough, I may have to give them a try though I would really like it if they included the human "Tau Helpers" Gue'vesa. It'd let me convert alog of my IG over there.

Here's hoping for assault 1 markerlights!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Anything with a jetpack can JSJ and I hardly think it's any more annoying than the nap required while your Green Tide (Ork) opponent moves their 1000 models around. Considering the maximum number of suits in a non-Farsight army is 15....it doesn't take too long to move them around when BA players have several 10-man units of jump infantry. The only reason other jump infantry don't JSJ is because, for the most part, they're marines and marines don't JSJ because they want to assault. Currently JSJ is the only viable tactic availaible to Tau players and the only way it will change is if suits are not jump infantry in the next codex or the rules change in 6th edition.

Actually, I think you will find that BA players don't JSJ because assault marines don't have jetpacks, they have jump packs.

The fluff for marines doesn't really allow for them to have jet packs instead of jump packs because they are marines they wanna be stuck in where its gritty and the tau are the EXACT opposite!

Wolfnid420 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Anything with a jetpack can JSJ and I hardly think it's any more annoying than the nap required while your Green Tide (Ork) opponent moves their 1000 models around. Considering the maximum number of suits in a non-Farsight army is 15....it doesn't take too long to move them around when BA players have several 10-man units of jump infantry. The only reason other jump infantry don't JSJ is because, for the most part, they're marines and marines don't JSJ because they want to assault. Currently JSJ is the only viable tactic availaible to Tau players and the only way it will change is if suits are not jump infantry in the next codex or the rules change in 6th edition.

Actually, I think you will find that BA players don't JSJ because assault marines don't have jetpacks, they have jump packs.

The fluff for marines doesn't really allow for them to have jet packs instead of jump packs because they are marines they wanna be stuck in where its gritty and the tau are the EXACT opposite!

And that has what to do with the rules I quoted? They don't have jetpacks, they have jump packs. Only models with jetpacks may use the JSJ move, the marines may thus not use JSJ because they have jump packs and not jetpacks.

Right....n I guess you were doing him a slight favor correcting him lol I just thought it was a rather pointless statement to make so I figures I'd make my own pointless statement

Pointless statement is pointless.

Or is it just round?

How would a true troll enter this thread in the worst possible way?

Brother Coa wrote:I hope that they will get it to Ward so he can rape their lore.
Making them kill all the Etherials and swear their loyalty to the Lord of Macragge.

Ah, yes.

Haters gonna Hate.

He's just mad cuz the new tau will probably rape his face repeatedly lol