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junk wrote:I'm definitely on board for Rail Rifles for Stealth teams, fearless drones, and special issue -> standard issue.

It would be nice to see crisis suits get improved CCW, nothing crazy, maybe rending. I mean, they can figure out plasma weapons, but they can't make claws?

Most importantly, I want to see at least one useful ability on an ethereal. Seriously, what did they think the point of those things was?

With your comment on crisis suit CCW's, it makes me think of a wolverine style crisis suit with lightning claws..

I firmly believe the Tau are more than capable of making some of the most advanced melee weapons in the universe.

They just don't want to as the regard them as anachronisms with no place in the modern battlefeild. Hence the almost complete lack of hand to hand combat training of their troops.

I personally think that the Trial of Fire should correct these things somewhat.

I'd like to see BS 4 and WS 3 on the Shas'ui and the Shas'vre moving to BS 5 and WS 4 on the Shas'el and Shas'o.

Dedicated close combat weapons, not really. But close combat wargear out the wazoo.

Photon Grenades and Photon Dischargers of course. Make all Jet Pack Hit and Run. Make a drone with a failsafe detonator in it. Flechette dischargers on our suits.

In short, yeah, we can't do much in close combat, but if you assault us we have ways of escaping and ways of making you pay for it.

I don't understand people's desire for any improvement in the tau CC ability...you certainly don't hear people saying armies like orks should have bs 3 or 4...Tau are shooting, they need to get better at shooting, who cares about their CC. It's not a part of the tau way to get into melee, and while yes it's a glaring weakness, but it's the culture of the tau, its the thinking they encourage. Instead of increasing Tau CC, they need more dedicated assault units, something to make the kroot better.

I think people look at some SM armies and see, say, Longfangs and TWC, or Psyfledreads and Pallies, and think to themselves, why can't my army be good at both?

That being said, Shooting should be the focus, it should be the Tau's most competitive builds and powerful units are shooting units/strategies.

I like two thought processes here.
1. A Hit and Run style CC suit units, pop out in their movement phase, lay down some close range fire, and charge back into the fray. Its more of a Farsight Enclave Tactic than traditional Tau. Close range firepower, which in the current edition would require the ability to get into CC, to avoid being charged, and out of CC, to bring firepower back to bear.

2. Flechette's and suicide escape drones being the other option.

Any other stuff I'm not thinking?

CaptTom - point 1 sounds a lot like XV-9 Hazard suits, other than the charge into assault. They'd use their VRRTs to bounce out of combat, move back a bit, shoot some more then move back further, forcing the assault unit to chase them rather than staying in the assault.

Jefffar wrote:CaptTom - point 1 sounds a lot like XV-9 Hazard suits, other than the charge into assault. They'd use their VRRTs to bounce out of combat, move back a bit, shoot some more then move back further, forcing the assault unit to chase them rather than staying in the assault.

It should, thats where I got the concept from. The reason for charging into assaults would be to keep the enemy from shooting and charging you, granted, this is situational, but that would be the general idea. Just extend it to Farsight Xv 8 suits, as I think that Enclave tactics fits the bounce out of combat better than Empire Tau. Empire Tau fit more long range weaponry.

So.
Enclave: VRRT extension to more suits. (Fusions, PR)
Empire: Focus on further ranges. (Mp, Railrifle)

thoughts?

ALL tau need 4 BS and Tau Robots that have the most advanced computers in the universe guiding their fething LASER PRECISION GUIDANCES SYSTEMS to pin point and launch a orb of light to make hitting stutf easier should be a BS of a minimal of 5.

Tau need BS in order to be playable. Period.

Tau have all the BS they need, it's called Markerlights.

I agree the Drones should be higher and there is some justification for making the Suits higher, but the firewarriors, not really.




Ya know, without the in game context, all this talk of BS would probably get us banned on some forums.

My wish list isnt all that different from the others, but heres what i want

A Veteran squad troop choice, who have acess to special weapons like flamers and rail rilfes. If Pathfinders can use railrilfes, why cant Fire Warriors?

An opened top medium skimmer vehicle, to take advantage of infantry fire power, which the tau have an adundance of

The option for an under barrel slung EMP grenade launcher for pulse rifles, which can either hit tanks or act as a small...and i mean small...blast template weapon. Foir a race dedicated to fire power, the Tau Infantry pack next to no punch when compared to other armies infantry

+1 BS across the board, but thats been said already

More options for drone types, like "Plasma Drones", "Missile Pod Drones" or maybe even a "Fussion Drone." Forge World already makes Heavy Weapon Drones armed with burst cannons, so lets finish the idea already

Fearless for drones....they or robotic AI systems...machines dont feel fear, i mean duh

Some upgrades to the Skyray, like some form of Area Attack move that bombards a place with seeker missiles, in the form of a blast template weapon. We should have this, rather than a Hammerhead Sublimination round. Again, for a race dedicated to fire power, I find the Skyray to be lacking in its destructive potential

More Options for stealth suit teams in terms of weapons. Same Thing that i said about drones, if a Stealthsuit can carry a fussion blaster, it should be able to carry any Tau Battle suit weapon....

And lastly, the ability to form tank units comprised of Hammerheads, Skyrays, and Devilfish. If the IG can do it why cant we....








Automatically Appended Next Post:

dbsamurai wrote:I don't understand people's desire for any improvement in the tau CC ability...you certainly don't hear people saying armies like orks should have bs 3 or 4...Tau are shooting, they need to get better at shooting, who cares about their CC. It's not a part of the tau way to get into melee, and while yes it's a glaring weakness, but it's the culture of the tau, its the thinking they encourage. Instead of increasing Tau CC, they need more dedicated assault units, something to make the kroot better.

Absolutely agree here, this is the direction Tau armies should go. Also, maybe the Ig Auxilaries, the Gau'vesa should become an official set of units. Veteran squads with assault weapons would fix the problem right then and there, if people REALLY want a Tau army to function in CC. Even though they are a shooty army. Shooty, not stompy

It's that attitude people have of forcing X to do Y.
Being told you can't do it makes them want to do it more.

I mean... I'm using an Ethereal because people say don't

master of ordinance wrote:
+1 BS across the board-tau firewarriors train for decades in fire drills so why only BS3?

Tau barely live decades when they aren't soldiers. Fire Warriors have even less time. BS 3 is a significant upgrade over a physically weak, poor-sighted Tau.

master of ordinance wrote:
drones LD10 and fearless-their non-seintinent AIs for feths sake!!! they dont worry about casualties only what their programing says.

Drones are sentient, and they do worry about their own livelihood. It's right there in the codex.

master of ordinance wrote:
drones +1 BS-their computer targeting...surely their going to be atleast semi decent shots

Twin-linked BS 2 makes them better shots than Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, and Eldar Guardians.

master of ordinance wrote:
pulse carbines assault 2-there essentialy full auto pulse weaponry desighned for assault.

Neither of those assertions are true.

master of ordinance wrote:
burst cannons assault 4-there GATLING guns for feths sake.

So are multilasers (3 shots) and scatter lasers (3.5 shots).

master of ordinance wrote:
Stealth teams and suits gain +1 WS-their trained infiltraters and will pick up hand to hand skills when they take out enemy sentries.

They still do so by shooting them.

master of ordinance wrote:
stealth teames and suits can take rail rifles and gain relentless

Stealth suits are already relentless. More rail rifles in the codex wouldn't hurt though, so that's one valid suggestion.

So are multilasers (3 shots) and scatter lasers (3.5 shots).

SLs are 4 shots, I don't know why you said 3.5 when it isn't even possible to get .5 of a shot.

The A2 carbine would be a good choice, but it'd need the rifle to be balanced, otherwise everyone would just take carbines for the 24 shots at 18" as soon as you hop out of a devilfish as opposed to the 24 you currently get at 12" or the 12 you get at 30".

Drones are sentient, and they do worry about their own livelihood. It's right there in the codex.

Excuse me, but right where? All I can see is that it says drones are artificial intelligences programmed to defend the Tau, and are able to perform independantly for a short period of time in drone teams. Neither of these point to them being sentient in the form of possessing 'fight or flight' urges or having the capcity to fear for their lives as much as simply assessing the tactical disavantages of certain situations.

They might see where falling back benefits them, but unlike the Tau, will not be gripped by the fear that drives them wholly from the battle. If anything drones will act more like marines, in as much as making tactical withdrawals and regrouping instead of simply fleeing the battle, so a more logical rule would be something similar to ATSKNF that means the drones will fall back but automatically rally, even under half strength, as they reassess their situation and realise that they are out of immediate danger.

One thing that should be fixed is drones counting for % casualties in units. Those drones are not given the capcity to function independantly, and are under the control of the team leader or battlesuit pilot they are assigned to. Their very role is in the codex; to protect the Tau, why would they cause the Tau to be demoralised or not wish to regroup by doing their job?

A shield drone, for instance, is there to absorb damage, it's more or less a given that they will be destroyed at some point, why does it come as so much of a surprise that the squad it was with flees?

They could be fleeing because their defense has just gone boom and are withdrawing so they don't join their drones on the floor.

Do tanks crews take morale tests when their weapons get blown off?

A Range 18", Str 8, AP1. Melta for Battlesuits.

master of ordinance wrote:Ok ok i no this has been done before but i feel we all have something to say on the matter.

so id like to see:

+1 BS across the board-tau firewarriors train for decades in fire drills so why only BS3?

Who needs to hit on more than a 50:50 when you wound on 3's (SM's and Orks etc.) and 2's (SoB, Eldar, Dark Eldar, other Tau, Nids).

EldarN00b wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:Ok ok i no this has been done before but i feel we all have something to say on the matter.

so id like to see:

+1 BS across the board-tau firewarriors train for decades in fire drills so why only BS3?

Who needs to hit on more than a 50:50 when you wound on 3's (SM's and Orks etc.) and 2's (SoB, Eldar, Dark Eldar, other Tau, Nids).

Stealth teams and suits gain +1 WS-their trained infiltraters and will pick up hand to hand skills when they take out enemy sentries.

Six new types of power suits including at least two choices for fast attack crysis suits and more heavy options and so forth. Like ALL crysis suits being able to be troops like with Logan grimnar and Wolf guard.

ALL crysis becomes troops lol.

master of ordinance wrote:as a note
crisis suits...
these should be toughness 7 atleast or even veihcles-i mean there fething MECHS!!! so why only toughness 4???
also all suits should have relentless if their non veihcle.
BS increase by +1 across the board definetly. i mean they should be a long range shooty army. they do train in fire drills specificaly.

now i am not a Tau player primarily(i play guard) so people can stop complaining that its just the Tau players who want +1 BS for the Tau.

I hate to bash opinion, but this is ridiculous. To begin, things such as Dreadknights are only toughness 6 and not vehicles. Even terminators with their sturdy armor are only T4 yet you expect T7 for mobility-focused battlesuits? No. Just no.

And also, according to fluff Tau naturally have poor eyesight. This is reflected in their statline by their mediocre accuracy. And, as stated earlier, Tau have short lifespans comparatively and thus never attain marksmanship ability on par with a Veteran.

They do not need more BS they need lower BO*.

*Body Odour

How about some kind of Tau Mutants that happened to an accident? Make it a Tau CC unit.

Ok, so... while possibly a little disjointed - these things:
Points reductions across the board.
Remove 1+ Firecaste Commander / Firewarrior Team requirement.
Remove BS5 top limit on markerlight upgrade.

Unit WS/BS/Ld
- Shas'la: WS-2, BS-3, Ld-7
- Shas'ui: WS-2, BS-4, Ld-8
- Shas'vre: WS-3, BS-5, Ld-9
- Shas'el: WS-4, BS-6, Ld-9
- Shas'o: WS-4, BS-7, Ld-10

Stealth Suits: Statline becomes,
S-4, T-4, W-1, I-2, A-2, Ld-8, Sv-3+.
Gets more weapon options across the board (Burst cannon, Fusion Blaster, Flamer, maybe missile pods.)
Has 2 Hardpoints instead of set burst cannon + 1 hardpoint.

Crisis Suits: Statline becomes,
S-4, T-5, W-2, I-2, A-2, Ld-8, Sv-3+.
Certain Special Issue stuff becomes standard issue?
Has 4 Hardpoints instead of 3.

Stealth and Crisis Suits get access to Twin-Linked Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines.
It might not be used, but it would be cheap and funny.

Hard Point Options allow to take up to two of any given weapon option.
i.e - 1 Burst Cannon, 1 Twin-Linked Burst Cannon 2 Burst Cannon, 2 Twin-Linked Burst Cannon.
'course this would prohibit any support systems on a crisis suit and be expensive has hell (2 twinlinked burst cannons being 24pts currently for 6 tl shots)
Add Rail Rifles and Markerlights to various suit options.

Ethereals:
Different ones confering certain special rules across the army, with possible FoC changes.
Similar in style to other cheap upgrade-character style independants that can be taken multiple to a FoC (like Haemonculi, the new Necron courty thing etc)

Ion Weapons become rending.

Stealth Drones, other gun drones, pulse rifle drones, medi drones, etc. Lots of drone options, basically 3-4 types of drone from light to heavy, simply with hardpoints (1-3).

Maybe some sort of 'energy shotgun' / 'pulse shotgun' giving them a HIGH powered point-blank weapon, something with a 6"ish range thats Str8 Ap- or soemthing like that, and counts as a power weapon in CC.

Broadsides with a slightly worse gun, but more of them to the Hammerheads slightly better gun, with less of them.
Something like Broadside Str9 Ap2, Twinlinked / Heavy 2 in squads of 1-3/5, with the hammerheads being the Str10 Ap1, either heavy 1 or Heavy 2, with the option of a 'sustained' Heavy 6-10 shot S5-6 volley.

Mass Drone controlling tank.
A transport with fire points - I don't feel an open topped vehicle is overly Tau-ish myself.

Why do the Tau have BS 3? So they don't get overpowered.

Think of it like this.

Full Strength Marine Squad just with Bolters fires at an MEQ unit: 10 shots = 6.67 hits = 3.33 wounds before saves and 1.11 wounds after saves are taken.

A full strength Tau squad fires at an MEQ unit: 12 shots = 6 hits = 4 wounds before saves and 1.33 wounds after.

Same Marine Squad engages a GEQ unit: 10 shots, 6.67 hits 4.11 wounds, no saves.

Same Tau Squad engages a GEQ unit: 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, no saves.

So per squad, the Tau already outshoot marines with BS 3. Markerlights can take them the rest of the way as needed. So BS 4 Firewarriors is much more than needed.

HQ: More HQ Choices, More special characters. Also one that can make Crysis suits of any kind a troop choice if you want them to be.
Elite: I wanna see slightly lower points costs around in options or the unit itself. Along with more different kinds of Crysis suits with powerful new CC and shooting options.
Troops: More Troop Options. We should see a slightly stronger Kroot option and more gun and CC weapon choice options for Kroot. New Species etc/.
Fast Attack: More powerful options to Vespids and rules update to make them a bit better at what they do. Gun Drone Squads should be 20 instead of 10.
Heavy: Another Heavy Tank Option. Two more different kinds of Broadsides that offer a wider range of artillery options.


Rules and stuff:
OK we all admit to Ethereal sucking eggs and that super Ethereal sucks even worst. Chance THAT!
Drones Need BS of a min of 4. Maybe Gun Drones can have 4 and Marker light Drones have a BS of 5.
Give relentless to broadside battle suits.
Drones autopass ALL leadership tests regardless of why they have to take them. They are 100% machine without emotion or fear of self preservation. Thus they have 0 leadership.
Monsterous Creature of some kind....
Shadowsun's previous stealth suit is now the stealth suit for the stealth suit guys as normal option.
Shadow sun is now an cheap upgrade character for stealth suit options
Burst Cannon is now longer range than before.
Kroot also has power weapons of some kind.

I just made a thread about my thoughts in a thread called full blown Kroot. Check it out.Edit: Also Flechette dischargers on suits to help if they get assaulted

I would like to see...

Viable Fire Warriors, not sure how
Light suit probably in the weight class XV1-2
A decent Farsight Enclave armies
Some way to get heavy/special weapons other than suits
Psychic Kroot Shaper HQ
Great Knarlocs and Knarloc riders
Viable Vespids: Rending, Assault2 or 18" neutron blasters
Drone Squads able to pass or fail ld checks on command