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IMO when a dp lands the hatches are blown, just like it says in the book...when the drop pod lands, all hatches are blown.

Anyone here seen an aircraft cockpit blown?

Anyone here ever see one stay where it is intentionally?

All the doors must open. Now I agree, certain people may not want to open the doors on their model, or for some reason they can't. so in that case leave the doors closed, for count them as open and give LOS through the damned pod!

1. It's there written in the codex, so do as it says.

2. How the hell would a squad of marines get out of a drop pod if the only exit is the door behind them...they can't walk round in a drop pod, you walk in, sit, get shot from orbit onto the planets surface, the door in front of you opens, you walk out...simple


LazzurusMan

LazzurusMan wrote:2. How the hell would a squad of marines get out of a drop pod if the only exit is the door behind them...they can't walk round in a drop pod, you walk in, sit, get shot from orbit onto the planets surface, the door in front of you opens, you walk out...simple

How do they get out of a rhino when the door is glued shut?

For that matter, how do they get out when their feet are glued to a giant black disc covered in rocks?

Nobody is disputing that the door has to open in order for the marines to get out. The difference of opinion comes from people disagreeing whether 'the hatches are blown' means that you have to place the pod with the doors open, or if it's simply a fluff reference to the fact that (fluffwise) the doors open to let the marines out, not a requirement for them to be open on the model.

Basically it boils down to player choice on how he wants to model his drop pod.

If he models it with 2 movable doors, and 3 glued shut doors, he can open two when the drop pod arrives, or not. Either way once the Deep strike is finished and the model is on the table, you can not manipulate the doors of the model mid-game.

GAH!!!!!

I was in no way saying that they can get out because the doors REALLY open.

Some people obviously take this too damn seriously.
The doors would open IN REAL LIFE. The whole idea of the game is to simulate real life in a simple *ish* way that creates enjoyment for those both taking part and watching.

The doors are glued shut on your rhino? The models can still disembark, because the doors WOULD open in real life.

What I was INTENDING to say is that the rules say that the doors would open on landing, meaning that models get los through the drop pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even if al the doors are glued shut, all doors would count as open, giving los.

LazzurusMan wrote:
What I was INTENDING to say is that the rules say that the doors would open on landing, meaning that models get los through the drop pod.

Even if al the doors are glued shut, all doors would count as open, giving los.

Actually the rules do not say if the "doors would open on landing" or not.

And the doors only count as open, if they are actually open, TLOS tells us this.

So if the doors are glued shut, then they are glued shut and you can not see through something that, quite obviously, blocks LoS.

Wow, after reading what the majority of people had to say...

First off to the players who say they would crush the opposing players models or block them or not play them... Thats kinda ridiculous and to me unsporting. Its a game. I am sure there are other rules in different armies that can be bended like the DP rule.

As for taking advantage of an experienced player... My friend is very experienced having played in the UK and Germany. This is the first time he really encountered this type of tactic before.

And yeh in the end I think it just comes down to what you guys agree on before the game starts. If I were to use them ill admit I would ask permission to do it if my player agrees then great if he gets mad about it then I wouldn't. Also if your gona do it I would also not be literal in the game as well and allow my opponent to do gray things as well. For example the charging example I said earlier. If my opponent wanted to charge me and was a bit off I would give it to him, or he was just out of range to shoot w.e. Its a game have fun. Just like terrain cover saves figure those things out before the game starts so when you do play it will go smooth and both players enjoy it.

Thx for the votes on the poll... Keep voting and discussing I am still listening. Good arguments. But please be sporting in your arguments. I do not want to hear you would slap the opposing player or something stupid and fictional like that.

insaniak wrote:

RiTides wrote:

Happyjew wrote:All doors open? Fine.
All doors closed? Fine.
Some open, some closed? Still fine.
Repositioning doors on another turn? I don't think so.

Is this the general view?

From my experience, yes, most players don't much care whether the doors are up or down, so long as you don't try to move them later.

Whether or not the interior weapon can shoot when the doors are modelled closed is a little more variable, though. I personally go with no... You need actual LOS from the weapon.

Since the hull of the vehicle is defined on p.56 BRB and the rule is that a vehicle can't shoot through its own hull I would think that the doors being closed would block LoS for the built in weapon as well as any troops behind the DP. Otherwise +1.

insaniak wrote:

Pony_law wrote:It'snot fluff its under the section call transport. as is the mention of it not being a seal environment. it is not in the fluff at the top of the page it is part of the rules description of the vehicle

Take a look through any of GW's codexes, and you will find a fairly large amount o flfuff mixed in with the actual rules. It's just how GW write their books... they generally give a bit of a fluff explanation of what's going on, and then list the actual rule that applies as a result.

'The hatches are blown' is not something that has a specified in-game effect. Nor is being (or not being) a sealed environment something that the rules consider. They are fluff descriptions of what is happening wehn the pod lands, and enforcing them as rules would be no less ridiculous than insisting that models should actually run across the board.

RiTides wrote:

Happyjew wrote:All doors open? Fine.
All doors closed? Fine.
Some open, some closed? Still fine.
Repositioning doors on another turn? I don't think so.

Is this the general view?

From my experience, yes, most players don't much care whether the doors are up or down, so long as you don't try to move them later.

Whether or not the interior weapon can shoot when the doors are modelled closed is a little more variable, though. I personally go with no... You need actual LOS from the weapon.

Pony_law wrote:the plan meaning of the language describing what happens in game terms when the pod lands say the hatches are blown, which means open period,

The doors of a rhino open when the troops disembark as well. As does the assault ramp of a Land Raider. And yet nobody insists that you actually do so with the physical model, or that they must stay open afterwards. Why? Because the rules don't tell us to do so.

Try to find a single rule that defines that 'the hatches are blown' means that the pod must be deployed with the doors open.

You won't find one.

I always open my hatches on tanks when letting my men out. It helps to lessen arguments if my dudes move 2" from the bottom of the hatch as it is their disembarkment point.

insaniak wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:2. How the hell would a squad of marines get out of a drop pod if the only exit is the door behind them...they can't walk round in a drop pod, you walk in, sit, get shot from orbit onto the planets surface, the door in front of you opens, you walk out...simple

How do they get out of a rhino when the door is glued shut?

For that matter, how do they get out when their feet are glued to a giant black disc covered in rocks?

Nobody is disputing that the door has to open in order for the marines to get out. The difference of opinion comes from people disagreeing whether 'the hatches are blown' means that you have to place the pod with the doors open, or if it's simply a fluff reference to the fact that (fluffwise) the doors open to let the marines out, not a requirement for them to be open on the model.

Actually the debate is not about how the droppod is model'd it's how you treat it for LOS and the correct answer is you treat it as having all the doors open so it does not block line of site (it does give a cover save)

Actually there is no "correct" answer, otherwise their could be no debate. There is however, a HYWPI answer, which we as a community can discuss to gain further insight. I think that almost everyone does agree whether or not pod deploys with doors open/closed (and how it affects LOS), you cannot change the position on subsequent turns to gain a benefit.

DeathReaper wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:
What I was INTENDING to say is that the rules say that the doors would open on landing, meaning that models get los through the drop pod.

Even if al the doors are glued shut, all doors would count as open, giving los.

Actually the rules do not say if the "doors would open on landing" or not.

And the doors only count as open, if they are actually open, TLOS tells us this.

So if the doors are glued shut, then they are glued shut and you can not see through something that, quite obviously, blocks LoS.

Yes they do they say the hatches are blown which means doors open. Thats the plain meaning of the language in the codex. just because someone modles it to look a certain way ie hatches shut does not mean it ceases to function as the rules state. WYSIWYG referes to wargear, how you pose a model has no efect on the rules what so ever. Maybe if we play I'll see some of your modles with a CC weapon but their pistol in a holster, uh oh you decided to have him put his gun away, he does not get +1 attack.

Pony_law wrote: it's how you treat it for LOS and the correct answer is you treat it as having all the doors open so it does not block line of site

Have you read the LOS rules?

I ask honestly because there are very, VERY few things that are treated as something other than they are in those rules - and they are explicit.
This is not one of them.

Pony_law wrote:Yes they do they say the hatches are blown which means doors open. Thats the plain meaning of the language in the codex. just because someone modles it to look a certain way ie hatches shut does not mean it ceases to function as the rules state. WYSIWYG referes to wargear, how you pose a model has no efect on the rules what so ever. Maybe if we play I'll see some of your modles with a CC weapon but their pistol in a holster, uh oh you decided to have him put his gun away, he does not get +1 attack.

They give you some fluff about the hatches are blown.

This tidbit of info is not a rule.

we can not define "the hatches are blown" in the context of the rulebook, so it is fluff and has no bearing on the actual rules of the game.

If you want to say "the hatches are blown" is a rule, then you would be required to actually blow your hatches, but that is a bit over the top, because no one is going to destroy their drop pod doors.

LazzurusMan wrote:What I was INTENDING to say is that the rules say that the doors would open on landing, meaning that models get los through the drop pod.

And what I was saying in response is that the rules don't say that. The fluff says that, and so the drop pod shouldn't be treated any differently to any other vehicle with doors.

IdentifyZero wrote:I always open my hatches on tanks when letting my men out. It helps to lessen arguments if my dudes move 2" from the bottom of the hatch as it is their disembarkment point.

How does opening the door change the disembarking point?

Pony_law wrote:Yes they do they say the hatches are blown which means doors open. Thats the plain meaning of the language in the codex. just because someone modles it to look a certain way ie hatches shut does not mean it ceases to function as the rules state. WYSIWYG referes to wargear, how you pose a model has no efect on the rules what so ever. Maybe if we play I'll see some of your modles with a CC weapon but their pistol in a holster, uh oh you decided to have him put his gun away, he does not get +1 attack.

You're confusing a couple of different issues there.

If the rules said that the pod had to have it's doors open, that would mean nothing more than that the pod has to have its doors open, and that a pod with doors closed would be breaking that rule. That has no effect on the LOS rules, which use the actual profile of the pod, as they do for every other model.

There is no rule that tells you to pretend the pod is modeled with the doors open if they are actually closed. If the doors are closed, then the pod blocks LOS as if the doors are closed... because that's how the LOS rules work.

The hatches are access points. They block line of sight. When the drop pod lands it becomes open topped. Open top means you may disembark from anywhere on the vehicle's hull. In order for this to be possible all the hatches would have to be down.

Obviously not RAW, but fairly straightforward.

WanderingFox wrote:The hatches are access points. They block line of sight. When the drop pod lands it becomes open topped. Open top means you may disembark from anywhere on the vehicle's hull. In order for this to be possible all the hatches would have to be down.

Obviously not RAW, but fairly straightforward.

So in order to disembark from a Rhino (or any transport) you have to model the ramp as down? Remember, you can't change the model during the game, so if its going to drop it has to stay down.

"obviously not raw"

It was an observation based on the model itself. The rhino has a hatch, it's easy enough to realize that they lower the hatch, let models out, and then raise it.

The drop pod is clearly stated as open topped. The only way for that to happen is that the pod doors are all down after it lands.

So I voted that you can have the doors up but you can't shoot the gun only becuase some people glue the doors in place. If so that's fine, if not then the doors...all doors come open. Nowhere do you have permision to only open some of them and that is a very sketchy move to begin with. Either way I would say if you want to play a pod list then either glue the doors up or accept the fact that some of them may overlap onto each other and enemy models may be moving over them...it's a game.

Akroma06 wrote: Nowhere do you have permision to only open some of them and that is a very sketchy move to begin with.

Just curious... Can you find permission for some Space Marines to be holding their bolters at waist height, and for others to have them held up higher?

You don't need permission to pose your model a certain way. So long as the model is assembled correctly, the rules don't much care. They don't even explicitly care about being assembled correctly, for that matter... it's just a general assumption that people make, on the grounds that the rules deal with normal Citadel models.

Opening some of the doors is, ruleswise, absolutely no different to opening all of them, or leaving them all closed. Yes, it will potentially affect the pod's LOS profile... but this is no different to how you pose any other model affecting its LOS profile.

People are trying to make an exception for this one specific model, when no such exception exists in the rules.

Actually that is a rule... or at least can be derived from one.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive
scenic bases. As mounting your models on differentsized
bases might affect the way they interact with the
rules, make sure before the game that your opponent
does not mind this.

In short, you'd have to okay it with your opponent first.

Akroma06 wrote:So I voted that you can have the doors up but you can't shoot the gun only becuase some people glue the doors in place. If so that's fine, if not then the doors...all doors come open. Nowhere do you have permision to only open some of them and that is a very sketchy move to begin with. Either way I would say if you want to play a pod list then either glue the doors up or accept the fact that some of them may overlap onto each other and enemy models may be moving over them...it's a game.

Or just model them movable... And leave them up. It makes no sense to allow it for someone who glues the doors but not for someone who has movable ones...

WanderingFox wrote:Actually that is a rule... or at least can be derived from one.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive
scenic bases. As mounting your models on differentsized
bases might affect the way they interact with the
rules, make sure before the game that your opponent
does not mind this.

In short, you'd have to okay it with your opponent first.

Sorry, you've lost me. Who was talking about mounting a drop pod on a large scenic base?

Or are we taking the doors off and mounting them on scenic bases now?

It was the precedent of deliberately altering a model to gain an advantage in regards to line of sight.

Hence the comment of deriving from it. If it's okay to have a scenic base that alters the size of a model as long as it is okay with your opponent, so too is it okay to leave the doors on/off/etc. so long as it is okay with your opponent.

WanderingFox wrote:It was the precedent of deliberately altering a model to gain an advantage in regards to line of sight.

How are you altering the model by leaving the doors shut?

The rule you mentioned deals with adding something that wasn't there originally to change the model's profile. That has nothing to do with how you pose the model, or when you assemble it with the parts it comes with.

Otherwise, do I need your permission to field my Tactical Sergeants with banners? Or when I leave them off?
What about my dreadnoughts? Do I need your permission to raise their CCW arm?

You wander into very slippery territory very quickly with that argument.

No because that has no bearing on line of sight. Banners and arms don't count (explicitly detailed in the brb when measuring to models).

The doors do. As such you must clear your intention with your opponent.

It is also worth noting this passage in true line of sight:
Of course, this method does mean that
occasionally there are border-line cases when it is
quite hard to decide if a model can see a target or
not, but sporting players will always be generous
and give their opponent the benefit of the doubt

As well as the wording of the drop pod itself, which clearly states that it is open topped.

I forgot to mention earlier:
All doors closed (open) but count as open (closed)? Still fine, albeit closed counts as open can cause some problems.

However, I'm not OK with all doors being open/closed and only some of them counting as the other way. If you have a DP with the doors glued shut and say that the doors are open, it will cause some problems with determining LOS, but it can played through. If you glued your doors open, but want to say they are all shut, I can't shoot you, through it, you can't shoot me, and the weapon inside can't shoot at anything due to no LOS.

DeathReaper wrote:

Pony_law wrote:Yes they do they say the hatches are blown which means doors open. Thats the plain meaning of the language in the codex. just because someone modles it to look a certain way ie hatches shut does not mean it ceases to function as the rules state. WYSIWYG referes to wargear, how you pose a model has no efect on the rules what so ever. Maybe if we play I'll see some of your modles with a CC weapon but their pistol in a holster, uh oh you decided to have him put his gun away, he does not get +1 attack.

They give you some fluff about the hatches are blown.

This tidbit of info is not a rule.

we can not define "the hatches are blown" in the context of the rulebook, so it is fluff and has no bearing on the actual rules of the game.

If you want to say "the hatches are blown" is a rule, then you would be required to actually blow your hatches, but that is a bit over the top, because no one is going to destroy their drop pod doors.

You keep saying it's fluff but its not it is in the section under transport, where it desribes how it brings modles to the battlefield, thus it is a rule. hatchs are blow is synonomis with the doors open you don't need to define in contrxt of any other rule because that is what that language clearly means, codex . the rolebook. further just go and ask a person what happens on a ship if someone is orded to blow the hatches, the answer you will get is they open the doors. Also in the next section of rules about the drop pod they mention the vehicle counts as open topped once arriving because the hatches are blown ie cannot be raised again unlike a tanks access points. Like I said you arguemnt is if the doors are up on the modle they are up in the game, which is the same as saying if the pistol is holstered the model is not using it so no +1 attack which is rediculous.

Without a FAQ answer here is my take. I agree with what others have said. Once the model hits the table you can not manipulate the doors further. So yes, he deploys out of LOS with one side up, however that blocks the weapon system of the DP and will be blocked in that direction for the remainder of the game. However, players attempting to do this in a tournament environment need to make sure what rulings will be used....as the INAT FAQ which is what is used around where I play, as well as at Adepticon, already clearly takes care of this and says that all doors are opened upon deployment. If they are glued up, then they are "treated as" they are all open.

Pony_law wrote:
You keep saying it's fluff but its not it is in the section under transport, where it desribes how it brings modles to the battlefield

You do realize that the drop pod did not actually bring models to the table, right?

That is why folks call things like that "fluff".

Pony, please define "the hatches are blown" in the context of the rulebook. preferably with page references.

If you can't find the rules that tell us what "the hatches are blown" means then you have to accept that it is in fact fluff, and has no bearing on weather the doors need to be up or down.