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Castiel wrote:"Many captured Ok weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork."

Only according to an unreliable narrator-- a Magos Biologi (IE, studies human genetics, not Ork technology) of the Adeptus Mechanicus (whom believes that non-human technology shouldn't technically work anyway).

The ork weapons and technology used in black library books are serviceable enough in human hands, and in FFG's roleplays, they simply don't jam in Ork hands while they have a chance of jamming in human hands.

Castiel wrote:As for the not facing Land Raiders point, as the Cadians about that one, I'm sure Abbadon brought plenty on his Black Crusades.

"Plenty" by comparison to the usual "one or two" that might participate in the one in a thousand battles that involve Space Marines that require them; even then, space marines are so rare that you'd only see them in one in a billion chances. Even on Cadia if they need to take down a land raider, it's a rare occasion indeed.

I would like to say "Shuriken Catapult", but it's not. As a basic and standard weapon, maintainance, reliability, and versatility are the key factors. Damage per shot or specialization is, by far, the least contributing factors since those two are provided by specialized units.

The lasgun is a good example of a good basic weapon, but it's trumped in most ways by the Shuriken Catapult. Sure, a cooking fire will reload the lasgun and you can't really break it, but that's also the case with the Shuriken Catapult (except it's advanced enough not to need the fire and is in a small way self-repairing.)

The Catapult is trumped by the gauss weapons, though, since the catapult is just a hail of metal-ish discs. The flayer will get the job done regardless what the job is, most of the time, without suffering from extreme lack of accuracy like the Shoota (no, putting a Shoota in the hands of a competent user doesn't make a weapon that's too poorly made to be accurate accurate) or lacking in stopping power like the lasgun.
Need to take care of extreme amounts of zer... I mean Tyranids? Bring a different support weapon.

Throughout history we've seen that it's not the weapons with the best specs that are the best. In the category of assault rifles, it's the easiest to maintain. In the category of anti-tank well... in some wars it's the anti-aircraft gun. In terms of best possible melee weapon - the spade, preferably sharpened, which can also be used to dig the latrine.
Veratility is king, even if it will be trumped by specialized weapons in specialized hands - but those aren't basic weapons.

That said, I'd still want the weapon that has 0 reaction time, very very high stopping power, and very low need to aim (although it's got a built-in weapon-to-helmet optical feed with zoom capabilities). Let's just hope ricochets aren't a problem the way it is for shotguns. Although I'm excessively pro-Eldar.

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:"Many captured Ok weapons and items of equipment do not work unless wielded by an Ork."

Only according to an unreliable narrator-- a Magos Biologi (IE, studies human genetics, not Ork technology) of the Adeptus Mechanicus (whom believes that non-human technology shouldn't technically work anyway).

The ork weapons and technology used in black library books are serviceable enough in human hands, and in FFG's roleplays, they simply don't jam in Ork hands while they have a chance of jamming in human hands.

Castiel wrote:As for the not facing Land Raiders point, as the Cadians about that one, I'm sure Abbadon brought plenty on his Black Crusades.

"Plenty" by comparison to the usual "one or two" that might participate in the one in a thousand battles that involve Space Marines that require them; even then, space marines are so rare that you'd only see them in one in a billion chances. Even on Cadia if they need to take down a land raider, it's a rare occasion indeed.

Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army. But if you are facing a horde army abolter would be better. Similar rates of fire for close range, but the bolter can shoot further as well, so you put down more over a greater distance.

And you say that other weapons are for dealing with the armour. What if you are on your own, or just in a squad with no heavy weapons and a tank appears? I'd love to see you fight a Leman Russ (which are ten a penny in 40k) with a shoota! As we don't knpw what the situation is it is clearly better to choose the weapon that can handle all comers as opposed to the one that does one thing well. Sure horde armies might be common, but I'd love to see you fight an armoured division just by shouting at them that they are very uncommon, so they don't matter.

Without knowing the situation the Gauss flayer is the best weapon to have. When we know the exact situation we can debate the best weapon for that, but if you don't know what you're going to face you'd better take something that can kill anything!

Also, my source for the weapons jamming comes from a codex, verified as canon. Black Library convienience and FFG are not. (Also, where is Ork weaponry used by humans, its not a story I'm familiar with! )

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

But that 0.0001% is so much cooler.

Am I arguing this right?

Nitros14 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

But that 0.0001% is so much cooler.

Am I arguing this right?

Yep, which is why Space Marines are popular. Everyone wants to be elite.

@mahtamori, the zerg are a rip off of the tyrinids. Just an fyi

I like how everyone says necrons are so advance blah blah blah, when they cant even go FTL. So scary that an invasion fleet is on its way, too bad its gonna take thousands of years to get where its going.

Best basic gun would be the lasgun. Accurate, reliable, easy to maintain, and reasonably powerful. It is extremely easy to supply with ammo.

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

That figure is false for a start. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons,SM and CSM aren't horde armies.

And even if that were the case, what if today you happen to be on that point?

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

That figure is false for a start. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons,SM and CSM aren't horde armies.

And even if that were the case, what if today you happen to be on that point?

Tau are pretty much a horde army.

But also consider that 99% of the battles in the Warhammer 40k galaxy involve the Imperial Guard or Orks.

Castiel wrote:That figure is false for a start. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons,SM and CSM aren't horde armies.

They also are all incredibly rare.

A basic weapon does not need to be able to destroy everything it comes across, it needs to be able to efficiently defeat what the infantryman is most commonly going to fast.

Nitros14 wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

That figure is false for a start. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons,SM and CSM aren't horde armies.

And even if that were the case, what if today you happen to be on that point?

Tau are pretty much a horde army.

But also consider that 99% of the battles in the Warhammer 40k galaxy involve the Imperial Guard or Orks.

That point is still irrelevant. Given that we don't know the number of troops being deployed, the availability of special weapons and the enemy we face the Gauss Flayer is clearly the superior choice of weapon to take into battle. Yes, the chances are that you'll be facing Guard or Orks so the shoota might seem like a good idea (although you'd still be better with a bolter in that situation IMHO), but that doesn't help you when the Leman Russ squadron or Land Raider appear and theres diddly squat you can do to hurt it.

Fluff wise I would say bolter or gauss flayer as they are reliable and used in (relativley) large numbers

Castiel wrote:SA and CSM aren't horde armies.

50.000 Khorne Berserkers and Chaos Space Marines LEGIONS have something to add to this, Black Templars to.
Just look at 13'th Black Crusade at number of Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Space Marines deployed and tell me that they are not horde.

Brother Coa wrote:

Castiel wrote:SA and CSM aren't horde armies.

50.000 Khorne Beserkers and Chaos Space Marines LEGIONS have something to add to this, Black Templars to.
Just look at 13'th Black Crusade at number of Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Space Marines deployed and tell me that they are not horde.

Stop being obtuse. You know damn well what I meant.

Brother Coa wrote:

50.000 Khorne Berserkers and Chaos Space Marines LEGIONS have something to add to this, Black Templars to.
Just look at 13'th Black Crusade at number of Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Space Marines deployed and tell me that they are not horde.

Compared to trillions of Orks and Imperial Guard? They're not Horde armies.

Looking back at my poll, I feel sorry for the Tyranids :(. I find the Flesh Borer the most gruesome way to go at least.

Nitros14 wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

50.000 Khorne Berserkers and Chaos Space Marines LEGIONS have something to add to this, Black Templars to.
Just look at 13'th Black Crusade at number of Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Space Marines deployed and tell me that they are not horde.

Compared to trillions of Orks and Imperial Guard? They're not Horde armies.

No, but compared to everyone else they are.
Not big but mini-horde army.

Nitros14 wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

That figure is false for a start. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons,SM and CSM aren't horde armies.

And even if that were the case, what if today you happen to be on that point?

Tau are pretty much a horde army.

But also consider that 99% of the battles in the Warhammer 40k galaxy involve the Imperial Guard or Orks.

The larges force of tau ever assembled so far was 9000 (+5000 kroot). the tau are not a horde army. Some forces are as small as 12 people.

If I can't reload for a long time, lasgun.

If I am in a war where I have supplies, Pulse Rifle or Splinter Rifle. Both of these weapons allow me to shoot tougher nastier foes that could eat me. I'm not a fan of Gauss weapons at all, I'm not a robot and I am pretty sure they are heavy as hell. Pulse and Splinter are both probably really lightweight in comparison.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I like how everyone says necrons are so advance blah blah blah, when they cant even go FTL. So scary that an invasion fleet is on its way, too bad its gonna take thousands of years to get where its going.

Well they have (or maybe used to have?) inertialess drives which are pretty boss, and the BFG book pretty unequivocally states they have the best ships. However the most recent codex seems to indicate that they use the Webway for FTL. So they really aren't all that slow.

again how are we defining 'best'. Consider the 'versatility' option. Lasguns can be versatile in some ways, but so can bolters. Bolters can come in compact varieites, heavy varieties, 'storm' variants, and the like. There are countless kinds of special ammunition - varying in means of propulsion (cased, caseless, reactionless, nuclear, etc.) payload (high density AP slugs, fragmenting charges, high explosive, incendairy, and more exoitc stuff up to and including miniature fusion, plasma and antimatter payloads) They can be subsonic or supersonic. They can be silenced and/or otherwise made into a sniper variant. THey can accept various add on weapons. It's entirely context.

And Tyranid weapons have some advantages. They can take over the host for one thing (IIRC there was some fluff bit in some old 1st or 2nd edition stuff, epic I think, where some psyker was trying psychometry on a tyranid gun, and it ended up overwhelming his mind and turning him into a living gun platform.) They can self repair. Their means of firing is pretty simple/straightforward and redundant, and maintenance or training are not issues. I even (vaguely) recall that at least some kinds can grow their own ammo (and if they can't they probably can adapt a way to do so.)

Gauss flayer for sure, it literally rips the molecules of the target apart! The brief fluff written in the 3rd edition codex for the flayer is a fantastic little piece of what it does to the target.

Not to mention its nice special rules for the actual game play!

Gauss flayer, a weapon that can demolish Terminator armor

Melissia wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:Your whole argument centres around the whole idea that you are facing a horde army.

Because I pay attention to the lore.

The number of battles which do not involve a horde army in the lore are less than one percent of one percentage point of the total amount.

But that 0.0001% is so much cooler.

Am I arguing this right?

Yep, which is why Space Marines are popular. Everyone wants to be elite.

I hate to say this, but this is why we must eventually consider the bolter to be the greatest weapon according to fluff (at least compared to the shoota).
GW creates four types of army: good elite, bad elite, good horde, bad horde. Elites always have better weapons in fluff than hordes, even if the hordes are hordes of great shooters. Good guys tend to have better weaponry than bad, as well. Therefore, there is no way that GW would ever consider making an ork weapon that they considered to be better than the space marine equivalent.

Take krak and shell for example. Though they may be the same in-game, their background will show how the marine one is better.

Castiel wrote:but that doesn't help you when the Leman Russ squadron or Land Raider appear and theres diddly squat you can do to hurt it.

It doesn't need to.

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:but that doesn't help you when the Leman Russ squadron or Land Raider appear and theres diddly squat you can do to hurt it.

It doesn't need to.

I like that you're using the arguement if, but when I use it you refuse to accept it!

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:but that doesn't help you when the Leman Russ squadron or Land Raider appear and theres diddly squat you can do to hurt it.

It doesn't need to.

I like that you're using the arguement if, but when I use it you refuse to accept it!

You haven't used the argument yet. Your argument is that it needs to be good against everything.

A basic weapon does not need to e good against everything. It needs to be good at what it will primarily be used for.

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Castiel wrote:but that doesn't help you when the Leman Russ squadron or Land Raider appear and theres diddly squat you can do to hurt it.

It doesn't need to.

I like that you're using the arguement if, but when I use it you refuse to accept it!

You haven't used the argument yet. Your argument is that it needs to be good against everything.

Have you even been reading my posts? I've said on several occasions things like: what if you're dropped in against tanks, and don't have any support weapons? then having a gun that can take out tanks is pretty damn useful.

Orks stuff is never the best cause no matter what it does.. it only does it for orkz. Thats not a good weapon unless YOU are an ork. lol

Melissia wrote:You haven't used the argument yet. Your argument is that it needs to be good against everything.
A basic weapon does not need to e good against everything. It needs to be good at what it will primarily be used for.

This.
Take AK-47 for example - basic weapon of most Earth military forces.
It's good against infantry, but can it take down an M1 Abrams or F-22 Raptor?
Basic weapons are made just for troops, not vehicles.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castiel wrote: I've said on several occasions things like: what if you're dropped in against tanks, and don't have any support weapons? then having a gun that can take out tanks is pretty damn useful.

Same for Necron warriors, it have a CHANCE to go trough vehicle armor.
It's not build for vehicles, Blaster and Tesla carbines are.