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@-666-
I do take big gambles in games frequently, I find it makes games more interesting! As we like to say, "you have to risk it to get the biscuit!"

This time, I didn't get the biscuit! Hahaha.

Seriously though, most games I lose is for that exact reason. I take a risk on a game winning move that back fires. I am OK with it though, as when it works out, it is so much fun.

@Thread
Perhaps spreading out would have been the better call. It would have allowed me to spread Jim out a bit and go for easier kill points as his Grot Squads came on the board.

My plan was to deny him a turn of shooting (which worked) and then essentially Alpha Strike him with my entire army hoping to do enough damage to then be able to tie up his key units with the Blob squad and win.

That didn't work out so well! Hahaha.

I was surprised the Rough Riders didn't hold. I should have killed more of the Wraiths from shooting, but Jim didn't fail a single ID save on them from all my templates. I charged in such a way to minimize the Whip Coil impact, but Jim passed 6 of 8 saves and I failed 4 of 4.

Had we both rolled average, it would have been a tie combat (which is what I was assuming) and that combat would have been in the way of his Scarabs and Wraiths, buying me another turn to shoot.

That didn't work out, either! hahaha

Plus, Jim was killing tanks with a single shot every time he did something to them, apart from once. It was painful.

In retrospect, bubble wrapping the tanks may have been a smart play but I wanted to retain some mobility with both the blob and the tanks. That turned out to not help me in this case, that that may have been a big mistake.

But in the end, it was a fun game (frustrating for me due to the stupid dice!) but I don't mind losing. I like to experiment and play good players, both of which mean I am going to lose form time to time. I think you learn more from a loss often.

I look forward to our next match, Jim!

evilbishop wrote:Thanks for the report; was very interested in the outcome.

I play IG and honestly couldn't see this game going any other way than what happened, especially after seeing the deployment. I would have been tempted to spread out along the table edge with the tanks (with their rears against the edge) with a fair distance between them to prevent multi-charges, then blob up in-front with the infantry. Have RR/SS on the flanks (as that would be where the Scythes would want to be to get a decent Death Ray shot off). Harder to surround and multi-charge than corner-castle but harder to protect those expensive tanks with a thinly stretched line.

There is, like you say, too many threats to deal with in the Necron list- all of which are fast and lethal against the tanks. The IG list has too many points spent on the tanks, not enough on the supporting units. The IG list was looking at maybe 2 or 3 damage results against vehicles/equivalent a turn, that's not good. Especially when you have so many points spent in anti-infantry (executioners, battle tanks and arguably demolishers are all primarily anti-infantry) leaving just the BS3 lascannons and a couple of BS3 autocannons to do some heavy lifting.

I think lack of a CCS really hurt this list and the Lord Commissar is a rubbish choice over a standard infantry commissar - many more points and the enemy can snipe him in combat (not hard to do).
No real point in having him over a CCS if you're not going to use his aura for buffing heavy weapon squads IMO. The CCS twin-linking the lascannons could have made a difference.

Honestly, no deployment is foolproof. Whether castling or spreading out, each deployment strategy has its pros and cons. I think that spreading out may have worked out a little better than castling against my army, but that is not a guarantee that he would have done better. In this case, he took a gamble with his deployment but it just didn't pan out, especially when I was making my saves.

He didn't really have a whole lot of ranged AT, but against my army, that was actually ok. That's because I don't run a mech-heavy necron list. Honestly, I wished he had brought more autos and lascannons as I felt his blast markers were much more dangerous to my army than his AT.

I can see why he chose the Lord Commissar for his army and I think it does fit his list, especially if he decides not to blob up. I myself use CCS but that is just my preference.

evilbishop wrote:Also, knowing about the CCB sweep attack, why not try and spread that blob out to make it nearly impossible to fly over any tanks? Surely there's enough bodies there to do it, even with the tanks spread out to mitigate death-ray damage (speculation on my part – I’ve not played against CCB/sweep attacks yet but that would be my first thought).

Night Fighting is a real kick in the teeth for the IG, especially against your list. That alone tilts the balance massively in your favour; although with how close most of your units got, there probably wasn't that much chance of not spotting anything (plus all the tanks & Sentinels have search lights).

I guess one of the reasons why he didn't screen out his tanks was because he wanted cover for his infantry. He was concerned about Anrakyr's Mind Over Machine power. I could've potentially controlled his plasmacutioner and have it fire on his own infantry. If they were out of cover, 5 plasma cannon shots would've killed a lot of them.

The Deathray potentially had a 27"-42" range. Move 12", pick a point 12" away and then roll 3D6" for the distance fired. If I get close enough, his blob squad wouldn't have been able to stop my death ray from hitting his tanks, though it may have minimized the damage I could've done with my command barges.

Night-fighting wasn't too big an issue. As I was advancing aggressively towards his lines, that meant he had a good chance to see my wraiths. Average night-fight is about 21.5" and my wraiths were about 15"-18" away, though it would've been an issue had he tried to fire at anything other than my wraiths.

evilbishop wrote:Anyway, I didn't mean all the above as a criticism of your opponent, who did better than I thought, as I think the result here was never in doubt. It’s an alright Guard list against certain opponents like, Long Fang spam or GK Psyfleman-spam or whatever, but totally boned against your list. Ironically, I think a standard mech-vet/av12 spam list would have been much more effective against your Necrons – more targets, can spread out, more mobile so harder to CC, lots of special/heavy weapons & templates for the scarabs. I still think your list would take it, but there wouldn’t be a lot left afterwards.

Totally agree. I think I would also match up well against chimelta/vendetta-spam, though I am concerned about manticores. That may be perhaps the best single unit in the guard codex to deal with my army.



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Red Corsair wrote:I wonder which blunt bloke made that wet dream comment jy2?

How did you keep a straight face during his deployment that is my main question? Next week you guys should come play on my coffee table its 2' x 2' so it has more then enough room I new the result as soon as he deployed. I think that guard list seems better in theory then it is in play. The low KP structure also means he can't target many threats. With Reecius' abysmal rolling I think he should stick to armies with loads of fire and target saturation ha ha.

Not really. It wasn't until after his first turn of shooting did I find that my face was starting to twitch somewhat.

Reece's list works against many of the more common and typical tournament builds. My list was anything but common or typical. You could say that we both played oddball lists that "went-against-the-tournament-grain".

Red Corsair wrote:
Well victory in 40k is determined in the movement phase (my opinion anyway), so when one list remains in an immobile clump it's pretty easy to figure out who will win.

That's true in any mission but Annihilation. But after playing less mobile armies for a while (grey knights and shooty nids), I'm loving the mobility of my wraithwing crons. It's going to be hard to go back to those slower armies now.



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pretre wrote:Yeah, he should have been at least doing the bumped shuffle over there.

Doing so would have lost him 5 lascannon shots per turn as well as reduced his range to 12". Heavy weapon guards is just not a mobile army no matter how you put it. It's just a style one has to accept when playing them.

Zid wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:

Zid wrote:Very interesting... I figured the Russ-spam would have done a bit more damage! Sadly the game was decided after 2 turns :(

Well victory in 40k is determined in the movement phase (my opinion anyway), so when one list remains in an immobile clump it's pretty easy to figure out who will win.

In some games, yes. In others, not so much... I really think the shooting phase is probably more decisive in many matches. But in this case, deployment it was basically decided lol

It really depends on the army build. Some armies inherently weak in 1 phase compensates by being strong in another. Guards give up assault and some mobility for high firepower. My Draigowing gives up mobility for decent shooty and dangerous assault. My MTO necrons are highly mobile and decent in assault at the expense of almost no shooting. It is a balancing act that each general always need to take into account when running his particular army. It's just the price that must be paid if you want to run a certain build and the general truly needs to know his army's strengths and limitations.

Clay Williams wrote:I think the luck was pretty even.

Good night fight rolls on reeces side while there were good saves on jy's side. Just about how I expected this to play out. The crons + night fight + fast movers really does kill the crap outa guard.

While I don't think Reece's luck was too bad (compared to my Draigowing-vs-mechdar match), my luck was definitely above-average. Even though he passed all his Night-fight rolls, he still couldn't do enough damage to me thanks to my superb saves.

-666- wrote:jy2 has a golden horse shoe shoved up his arse.

Didn't you know that I sh*t nuggets?

Red Corsair wrote:I think for a rematch you need to play against a tried and tested list like his Bjorn wolves or something. Or maybe Franky's Nurgle army, I think your necron list is very solid and deserves a more Tourney resilient list.

Reece' Bjorn wolves would have definitely been a challenge, but no offense to Frankie, my crons would've killed his Nurgle army IMO. Kill the princes with wraiths, tarpit his troops with scarabs for the rest of the game and pick out his oblits with my CCB lords and doom scythes.

@Jy2- Thanks! I really have been having a hard time finding some good Tau bat reps. All the ones I've been seeing the Tau get steam rolled...... Repeatedly...... Soon enough I will be having my own battles vs. GK and SW mainly. I'm very grateful of your helps seeing as I need tactical tips and list ideas. I personally think any army can be a tough opponent (at least in friendly games) under the right general.

Reecius wrote:@-666-
I do take big gambles in games frequently, I find it makes games more interesting! As we like to say, "you have to risk it to get the biscuit!"

This time, I didn't get the biscuit! Hahaha.

Seriously though, most games I lose is for that exact reason. I take a risk on a game winning move that back fires. I am OK with it though, as when it works out, it is so much fun.

I think that is a sign of a truly good player. You need to know when to play it safe and when to take risks. In the case when you're overmatched, IMO you have to take the gamble.

Several case in points, my "unoptimized" necrons (with something like 35 gauss immortals and only 1 CCB, 1 unit of wraiths, 1 unit of destroyers and 1 unit of 3 spyders+10 scarabs) versus Ghazzies' battlewagon orks. I was overmatched there but took a big risk when I took the fight to him. If I hadn't taken the risk and played aggressively against a much more aggressive army, he would've overran me.

Then there was the Ard Boyz practice game between my Crowe-Purifiers against a 12 cyclone ML, 45+ Assault terminator Deathwing army. Again, I took a huge gamble and took the fight to him when most people would've probably hung back and tried to shoot them to death. Had I not done that, I wouldn't have been in position to claim the objectives.

Then there was the time my nids went up against my friend's paladin army. I was thoroughly dominating him until he decided to take a big gamble and assaulted his dreadknight into my lines. He ended up going through 2 tervigons, my tyrannofex and 1 unit of hive guards for 4KP's and the win.

Sometimes, when you don't "go against the grain" in terms of strategy against a superior army,. you won't be able to win. In these types of matchups, you need to take a gamble just to have a reasonable chance for victory. Not to be more cliched or nothing, but sometimes you have to take a gamble because the juice is worth the squeeze, at least if you want to win.




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Benamint wrote:@Jy2- Thanks! I really have been having a hard time finding some good Tau bat reps. All the ones I've been seeing the Tau get steam rolled...... Repeatedly...... Soon enough I will be having my own battles vs. GK and SW mainly. I'm very grateful of your helps seeing as I need tactical tips and list ideas. I personally think any army can be a tough opponent (at least in friendly games) under the right general.

No prob. Both of my opponents - Gus and SabrX - are great Tau generals. SabrX his designed a seriously good Tau list with lots of kroots. I really like his army.

@Jy2- So I see! Guess it isn't so odd for me to have 80 Kroot then... Now I need 1 more FW and suits/ Rail heads! Oh and 2 more Piranhas

@Evilbishop
I agree with a lot of your points, but I intentionally took a weird IG list. It is built to beat the current meta lists (and I recently won a tournament with them).

Jim wanted to try his crons against my list just to have some fun and see how it would go.

I have won several tournaments and a GT with my IG, so I do know how to build a "normal" IG list, no problem. I just like to try new things.

Had my gambit paid off with my deployment, I would have bought myself 2-3 turns of shooting, and it would have looked a lot different.

However, it didn't. My risk didn't pan out and I got smashed! Haha, that is the way it goes sometimes.

A CCS would be great, no question, and in this game would have been a lot better. However, I don't change my list for my opponent as you can't do that in a tournament. I played the list I played to win the RTT I brought it to.

There, the Commissar lord is awesome as he makes the blob basically invincible for all intents and purposes, and he adds a lot of punch in HtH, and is a much harder KP to get.

This was just a really bad match-up for that particular unit.

Like I said, I don't mind losing when I am trying out new ideas. I don't like it at all, but that is the price you pay when trying to innovate.

When it works, it is great! Everyone said Bjorn was terrible, and then I got 4th place at Adepticon with a Bjorn list, and won several GTs and all of a sudden people were using Bjorn lists all over the place! That is cool to me, to see a "common sense" notion turned on its head, and then for people to have fun playing something different.

If it wins big people will copy it. I would like to see a rematch.

Very interesting list. I'm surprised how few kps Reece got since this army won a recent tournament. My wraith list is a little different and it's only 1750. I'm running 18 wraiths some praetorians and a couple doom scythes with imotek. I plan to fight reecius tier wolves in a test run very soon

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Very interesting list. I'm surprised how few kps Reece got since this army won a recent tournament. My wraith list is a little different and it's only 1750. I'm running 18 wraiths some praetorians and a couple doom scythes with imotek. I plan to fight reecius tier wolves in a test run very soon

Honestly, in my opinion, I don't think Immotehk adds a whole lot to a wraithwing list. You'll close in on the enemy too fast to really make use of more than 1 turn of night fight and Immo's lightning storm is too unreliable to use. Praetorians just aren't a very good unit and their shooting is made void by the wraiths getting into combat too quickly.

If you want, you can post your list here or PM me and I will critique it. But no matter what you bring to support your wraiths, it'll still be interesting to see how 18 wraiths backed up my 2 doom scythes will do. My guess is that they will carry the majority of the offensive load.

Congrats winning jy2. Your dice are hot! Solar Pulse gives assault-oriented Necrons a fighting chance against shooty-heavy armies.

Awesome list reecius, you'll vanquish the xenos scum next time with better dice and deployment.

Got to ask, have you considered running the tanks in mixed squadrons?

SabrX wrote:Congrats winning jy2. Your dice are hot! Solar Pulse gives assault-oriented Necrons a fighting chance against shooty-heavy armies.

Yeah, IMO Solar Pulse is a necessity in any non-Immotehk lists.

I have a bad taste in my mouth that is getting worse by the minute as more and more reports seem to support that Necrons are better suited for assault then shooting. Call me old school but this just doesn't seem right. Now I am scared to see where they take the Tau lol. Most mobile force in 40k perhaps? Best psykers, anything can happen at this point.

I was ready to put the Grey Knights away for good as I think they can be a bit over the top, but this type of Necron list means I can't. The Grey Knights have enough str 6 weapons to decimate the Scarabs while all the instant death CCW will be able to handle the Wraiths.

Ah sooooooo disappointed! :( I thought of all people Reecius would be able to put up a good fight against the crons with his IG. I had the IG winning it until I saw the deployment, I would have favored a more spread deployment like the other said. I could see reccius deployment pulling off if he had been a little less unlucky, still the right idea to try and hide the vehicles. Oh well, a shame a little more luck didn't go reecius way in this one. It was a nice rep still, showed that the crons have more than the scarab farm in their arsenal

Red Corsair wrote:I have a bad taste in my mouth that is getting worse by the minute as more and more reports seem to support that Necrons are better suited for assault then shooting. Call me old school but this just doesn't seem right.

Necrons are still effective as a shooty army, but they are formidable built for assault.

Now I am scared to see where they take the Tau lol. Most mobile force in 40k perhaps? Best psykers, anything can happen at this point.

Not if the rumors of cruddace writing the Tau codex turns out to be true.

DarthDiggler wrote:I was ready to put the Grey Knights away for good as I think they can be a bit over the top, but this type of Necron list means I can't. The Grey Knights have enough str 6 weapons to decimate the Scarabs while all the instant death CCW will be able to handle the Wraiths.

Yeah, I think Grey Knights have the best chance against the new Necrons be it shooty or wraith-wing and/or scarab swarm. Tyranids still have a good chance, as Janthkin has already proven. There's also Daemons of Chaos (fate-weaver), Ork horde, and heavy Terminator lists to consider.

darkcloud92 wrote:Ah sooooooo disappointed! :( I thought of all people Reecius would be able to put up a good fight against the crons with his IG. I had the IG winning it until I saw the deployment, I would have favored a more spread deployment like the other said. I could see reccius deployment pulling off if he had been a little less unlucky, still the right idea to try and hide the vehicles. Oh well, a shame a little more luck didn't go reecius way in this one. It was a nice rep still, showed that the crons have more than the scarab farm in their arsenal

Even Reecius isn't immune to bad luck. Perhaps it's bad karma from his foot-dar versus Dark Angels game.

SabrX wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:I have a bad taste in my mouth that is getting worse by the minute as more and more reports seem to support that Necrons are better suited for assault then shooting. Call me old school but this just doesn't seem right.

Necrons are still effective as a shooty army, but they are formidable built for assault.

Lack of low AP long range weaponry and the undercosted scarabs, wraiths AND meta altering solar pulses in the mix would suggest otherwise.



I think Cruddace will do better on the Tau as he has taken soooooo much flack for his past work plus in't Kelley working on it as well?

Red Corsair wrote:
Lack of low AP long range weaponry and the undercosted scarabs, wraiths AND meta altering solar pulses in the mix would suggest otherwise.

Let's face it, unless you are IG (and even they can put together fairly scary assault blobs), a codex needs to have solid assault capability in today's game. We don't have the turboboosting, 36" triple shot AP3 gauss cannons anymore, but there are a lot of new tools available and necrons can be built just as shooty as ever. They just need to be employed differently than they were before.

Yeah, Shooty Space Wolves and Assaulting Necrons! Haha, what is the world coming to?

It wasn't just bad luck that cost me the game, Jim had the better list and he played smart.

I still like the IG list, and would gladly take it to another tournament. This was probably my worst match-up, but it is good to play through bad match-ups to see how best to play them.

@Almarine
No, I have not considered mixed squadrons, actually. I like to keep like weapons firing together so that I don't find myself in a situation where Some of the guns can't hurt what you shoot at.

Just wait till someone puts together a good necron list with TombBlades. Thats just like the necrons though, slow but implacable troops distract you and box you in, then lightning fast and powerful vehicles/constructs kill you before you know they're there.

Red Corsair wrote:I have a bad taste in my mouth that is getting worse by the minute as more and more reports seem to support that Necrons are better suited for assault then shooting. Call me old school but this just doesn't seem right. Now I am scared to see where they take the Tau lol. Most mobile force in 40k perhaps? Best psykers, anything can happen at this point.

I think that GW nerfed the crons just by making their gauss blasters rapid-fire. If only they had left them at assault 2 (they wouldn't even need tesla carbines), I'd be happy to play shooty crons. But alas, GW made the best units in the codex non-necron units (without Reanimation Protocols).

DarthDiggler wrote:I was ready to put the Grey Knights away for good as I think they can be a bit over the top, but this type of Necron list means I can't. The Grey Knights have enough str 6 weapons to decimate the Scarabs while all the instant death CCW will be able to handle the Wraiths.

IMO the GK's are still top dog. They match up well against necrons. It should be a tough battle even for my Maximum Threat Overload crons against a balanced GK list (or Draigowing) run by a competent general.

SabrX wrote:Yeah, I think Grey Knights have the best chance against the new Necrons be it shooty or wraith-wing and/or scarab swarm. Tyranids still have a good chance, as Janthkin has already proven. There's also Daemons of Chaos (fate-weaver), Ork horde, and heavy Terminator lists to consider.

Grey Knights just have the tools to handle almost every build out there. I think nids and daemons also match up well against necrons in general, though they may have a little trouble against my MTO crons. Horde orks will give almost any non-purifier-spam lists problems. Finally, necrons will have problems in general against 2+ armies that can insta-gib their wraiths and scarabs.

Red Corsair wrote:
Lack of low AP long range weaponry and the undercosted scarabs, wraiths AND meta altering solar pulses in the mix would suggest otherwise.

What I think really hurts necron is the loss of assault gauss blasters. Immortals are good, but just to make them viable you need to have a phaeron lord with them. Teslas are no where near as good as the older edition's gauss blasters. If only GW didn't change the gauss blaster, I think you will see more immortal lists and hence, more shooty necrons.

As it is, I don't think you will see many shooty necron builds winning major tournaments. They just don't have what it takes.

I have to say I disagree with that last statement of yours jy2. I run pure shooty crons and have had nothing but success so far. Admittedly I haven't played that many games yet but the ones I have played are vs the local tournament champion. He's been running DE and I have won all the games so far. Admittedly luck in some cases has been a factor, but in my opinion they are more than capable of competing at the top level.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:
Lack of low AP long range weaponry and the undercosted scarabs, wraiths AND meta altering solar pulses in the mix would suggest otherwise.

Let's face it, unless you are IG (and even they can put together fairly scary assault blobs), a codex needs to have solid assault capability in today's game. We don't have the turboboosting, 36" triple shot AP3 gauss cannons anymore, but there are a lot of new tools available and necrons can be built just as shooty as ever. They just need to be employed differently than they were before.

With regards to assault, not necessarily true. Some of the more competitive lists out there are MSU-shooty builds with little assault. Long-fang-spam space wolves, AV13+razor-spam BA, venom-spam DE, GK psyfleman-henchman razor-spam, mechguards....all are successful builds without relying on assault as a major factort in their lists. Also, Tau is another army that can do fairly well under a competent general without relying on any assault. It all has to do with the proper use of screening units and vehicles.

Necrons, on the other hand, do need to rely on assault to open up tanks. Otherwise, the most they will do is stunlock enemy vehicles. Doom scythes and doomsday arks just aren't enough.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Just wait till someone puts together a good necron list with TombBlades. Thats just like the necrons though, slow but implacable troops distract you and box you in, then lightning fast and powerful vehicles/constructs kill you before you know they're there.

That's an interesting unit that I must try out one of these days.




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Lukus83 wrote:I have to say I disagree with that last statement of yours jy2. I run pure shooty crons and have had nothing but success so far. Admittedly I haven't played that many games yet but the ones I have played are vs the local tournament champion. He's been running DE and I have won all the games so far. Admittedly luck in some cases has been a factor, but in my opinion they are more than capable of competing at the top level.

I am not saying that shooty crons aren't competitive. They can still win. However, the way that the codex was designed, shooting is not the primary strength of the army. They cannot and will not outshoot other shooty armies, especially the MSU builds, nor do they have the shooting to handle FNP armies as well as 2+ armies. In order to compete with the top-tier lists, they need units such as wraiths and scarabs, who are their best assault, tarpit and also anti-tank units as well.

Also, IMO DE is a favorable matchup for tesla-destructor crons. You have the mobility to match theirs, and the flaws of a S7 AP- are overshadowed by the flaws of AV10 open-topped transports.

Again I disagree. If you take Wraiths you still struggle to deal with 2+ saves and FnP. Yes they are great all rounders but they still aren't S8 and will struggle vs fast moving vehicles. While we may not be able to field that many Crypteks they at least bring some S8 and can be put into units so they are hidden and can be screened very easily with other vehicles or cheaper Scarabs. They are also cheaper than Wraiths. Night Scythes also give them a degree of mobility and even safety that can get them out of unfavorable situations since they go back into reserve if the transport gets destroyed. Vs other mechanized builds I believe that night fight can be used to great effect to knock out sections of your opponents army at a time.

Take purifiers for example. Their dreadnoughts can be effectively neutered for 2 turns while you use your entire army to crack open a couple of transports and deal with the contents. After that it becomes a very one sided fight.

jy2 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:
Lack of low AP long range weaponry and the undercosted scarabs, wraiths AND meta altering solar pulses in the mix would suggest otherwise.

Let's face it, unless you are IG (and even they can put together fairly scary assault blobs), a codex needs to have solid assault capability in today's game. We don't have the turboboosting, 36" triple shot AP3 gauss cannons anymore, but there are a lot of new tools available and necrons can be built just as shooty as ever. They just need to be employed differently than they were before.

With regards to assault, not necessarily true. Some of the more competitive lists out there are MSU-shooty builds with little assault. Long-fang-spam space wolves, AV13+razor-spam BA, venom-spam DE, GK psyfleman-henchman razor-spam, mechguards....all are successful builds without relying on assault as a major factort in their lists. Also, Tau is another army that can do fairly well under a competent general without relying on any assault. It all has to do with the proper use of screening units and vehicles.

Necrons, on the other hand, do need to rely on assault to open up tanks. Otherwise, the most they will do is stunlock enemy vehicles. Doom scythes and doomsday arks just aren't enough.

I agree completely, which is why I said a codex needs it, and not a list. Within a gaming circle, if you run that same list over and over again, eventually someone is going to come up to the table with a direct counter. You need the option to be able to switch it up. All of those lists (I think the Tau one is kind of a bad example as while they can certainly do well, as really any army can, they are generally near the bottom of the food chain) have the option of integrating a pretty dedicated, fairly plug and play assault unit, just in case. It's something I have to account for in almost every matchup..and the ones that I don't have to account for it (playing against a tau player, or playing against someone who I know just loves to shoot things to bits) always seem to make for an easier game for me. That's just basing it on my experience within a group of players, and is not representative of everyone's experience, but I think that outside the tournament scene, it will be representative of more people than not.

Then again, it could just be me

Lukus83 wrote:Again I disagree. If you take Wraiths you still struggle to deal with 2+ saves and FnP. Yes they are great all rounders but they still aren't S8 and will struggle vs fast moving vehicles. While we may not be able to field that many Crypteks they at least bring some S8 and can be put into units so they are hidden and can be screened very easily with other vehicles or cheaper Scarabs. They are also cheaper than Wraiths. Night Scythes also give them a degree of mobility and even safety that can get them out of unfavorable situations since they go back into reserve if the transport gets destroyed. Vs other mechanized builds I believe that night fight can be used to great effect to knock out sections of your opponents army at a time.

Take purifiers for example. Their dreadnoughts can be effectively neutered for 2 turns while you use your entire army to crack open a couple of transports and deal with the contents. After that it becomes a very one sided fight.

It'll probably require more playtesting and who knows....maybe you'll even prove me wrong. There's just really not enough data on shooty necrons. But judging from your experimental fast and shooty necron list, I just don't feel that they have what it takes to compete with some of the top tournament lists. You should try a test game against your own (or your friend's) grey knights.

Maelstrom808 wrote:
I agree completely, which is why I said a codex needs it, and not a list. Within a gaming circle, if you run that same list over and over again, eventually someone is going to come up to the table with a direct counter. You need the option to be able to switch it up. All of those lists (I think the Tau one is kind of a bad example as while they can certainly do well, as really any army can, they are generally near the bottom of the food chain) have the option of integrating a pretty dedicated, fairly plug and play assault unit, just in case. It's something I have to account for in almost every matchup..and the ones that I don't have to account for it (playing against a tau player, or playing against someone who I know just loves to shoot things to bits) always seem to make for an easier game for me. That's just basing it on my experience within a group of players, and is not representative of everyone's experience, but I think that outside the tournament scene, it will be representative of more people than not.

Then again, it could just be me

Yeah, flexibility is good. It makes for a much funner and more robust codex.

I do plan on playing vs a friends GK's. Only thing is he went back to the states for a month. So at the moment I'm just getting in games VS who is available, not that that's a bad thing mind.

Yeah, I know. Mark actually wanted to come up to northern California to play against me, but I don't think he was able to fit it into his schedule.

jy2 wrote:

I am not saying that shooty crons aren't competitive. They can still win. However, the way that the codex was designed, shooting is not the primary strength of the army. They cannot and will not outshoot other shooty armies, especially the MSU builds, nor do they have the shooting to handle FNP armies as well as 2+ armies. In order to compete with the top-tier lists, they need units such as wraiths and scarabs, who are their best assault, tarpit and also anti-tank units as well.

I think changes in 6th edition to how rapid fire weapons work will give a strong boost to Necron Immortal shooting.

jy2 wrote:Yeah, I know. Mark actually wanted to come up to northern California to play against me, but I don't think he was able to fit it into his schedule.

I wasn't aware he had taken his army/armies out with him. Shame he doesn't have the time, his stuff is beautifully painted and his lists are great to play against.