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Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd like to point out something.



No race will ever outnumber the Tyranids. That's a single Hive Fleet - one Fleet of potentially millions, and it's already thicker and longer than the galaxy is.

Somebody mentioned it being a game of sheer overall numbers as "Orkz outnumber every race in the galaxy". In that regard, the Tyranids win, hands down (Also, the Orkz may not outnumber the Necron, but nobody knows exactly how many of those there are). They grow in linear scale with their enemy - the more enemies they fight, the more Tyranids there are. A single Hive Ship got to Ghorala, and swiftly adapted, grew, and overcame the Orks on that world.

As for the Ork codex saying that "Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore." - That's all of the 'scary races' doom endings that will never happen. If every Daemon appeared from the Warp, they would wipe out the galaxy. If every Necron woke up, they would wipe out the galaxy. If the Tyranids get here, they'll wipe out the galaxy. Bla bla bla. It's 40k.

As for "Orkz advance in tactics" - So do the Tyranids. They adapt behaviorally as well as physically. It's called evolution. The reason they haven't made bugs perfectly designed to kill Orkz is because they effectively work by natural selection. No swarm has ever had enough time to adapt completely - for example, becoming immune to bullets would require a long-lasting war in which an enemy uses bullets to kill Nids very often. Natural selection requires many losses, and when battles happen, the Nids either win or lose, without enough time given to start adapting.

Battle = spores = infinite Orks? That means unlimited biomass. Unlimited biomass means an unlimited amount of time and resources to spend on adaption. Nothing can adapt better than natural selection can.

As for the Orks being the only race who can survive, even thrive, after the Tyranids have consumed a planet? I doubt that, unless they can spore/survive on an airless world with literally zero useful materials left in it. They take the useful components from the ground, they take the sky, they take the sea, and they take every scrap of biomass. Besides, even if Orks could survive - all it meant is that they survived the Nids, not won, as "Nids destroying everything" would be considered a victory, I think.

Really, it's a matter of time before the Tyranids win. Both sides improve as the fight rages on, but the Tyranids don't just learn from their experiences, they adapt. Eventually, unlimited biomass will start resulting in tank-sized Gaunts with a carapace harder than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

That's another thing. Orks can build with nearly anything - but unlimited Orks doesn't mean unlimited weapons. With Tyranids, it does.

Buuuuuuuut this is a rather pointless thing to argue about. Especially since it's Games Workshop and this means it will never, ever, ever be resolved, without the whole system getting swallowed by a magical Warp Storm or the fighting waking up enough Necron to wipe out both sides. Or the Eldar coming in and retconning everything with fairy magic.

All in all, it's tough for both sides. It's effectively a war of attrition, and Nids are just too good at that to lose.

EDIT: Also, Warriors aren't based from Space Marine DNA. That's Tyrant Guard.

All in all, it's a big fight..........and Orkz are just too good at that to lose...........

Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd like to point out something.



No race will ever outnumber the Tyranids. That's a single Hive Fleet - one Fleet of potentially millions, and it's already thicker and longer than the galaxy is.

Somebody mentioned it being a game of sheer overall numbers as "Orkz outnumber every race in the galaxy". In that regard, the Tyranids win, hands down (Also, the Orkz may not outnumber the Necron, but nobody knows exactly how many of those there are). They grow in linear scale with their enemy - the more enemies they fight, the more Tyranids there are. A single Hive Ship got to Ghorala, and swiftly adapted, grew, and overcame the Orks on that world.

As for the Ork codex saying that "Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore." - That's all of the 'scary races' doom endings that will never happen. If every Daemon appeared from the Warp, they would wipe out the galaxy. If every Necron woke up, they would wipe out the galaxy. If the Tyranids get here, they'll wipe out the galaxy. Bla bla bla. It's 40k.

As for "Orkz advance in tactics" - So do the Tyranids. They adapt behaviorally as well as physically. It's called evolution. The reason they haven't made bugs perfectly designed to kill Orkz is because they effectively work by natural selection. No swarm has ever had enough time to adapt completely - for example, becoming immune to bullets would require a long-lasting war in which an enemy uses bullets to kill Nids very often. Natural selection requires many losses, and when battles happen, the Nids either win or lose, without enough time given to start adapting.

Battle = spores = infinite Orks? That means unlimited biomass. Unlimited biomass means an unlimited amount of time and resources to spend on adaption. Nothing can adapt better than natural selection can.

As for the Orks being the only race who can survive, even thrive, after the Tyranids have consumed a planet? I doubt that, unless they can spore/survive on an airless world with literally zero useful materials left in it. They take the useful components from the ground, they take the sky, they take the sea, and they take every scrap of biomass. Besides, even if Orks could survive - all it meant is that they survived the Nids, not won, as "Nids destroying everything" would be considered a victory, I think.

Really, it's a matter of time before the Tyranids win. Both sides improve as the fight rages on, but the Tyranids don't just learn from their experiences, they adapt. Eventually, unlimited biomass will start resulting in tank-sized Gaunts with a carapace harder than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

That's another thing. Orks can build with nearly anything - but unlimited Orks doesn't mean unlimited weapons. With Tyranids, it does.

Buuuuuuuut this is a rather pointless thing to argue about. Especially since it's Games Workshop and this means it will never, ever, ever be resolved, without the whole system getting swallowed by a magical Warp Storm or the fighting waking up enough Necron to wipe out both sides. Or the Eldar coming in and retconning everything with fairy magic.

All in all, it's tough for both sides. It's effectively a war of attrition, and Nids are just too good at that to lose.

EDIT: Also, Warriors aren't based from Space Marine DNA. That's Tyrant Guard.

I have already aswered to many of these point in earlier posts but:

Evolution: It is true that nids evolve but do you why things evolve because they need to get better otherwise they would die. Dinos didn't evolve they died, neardentals didn't evolve they died, ect. There is two reason when you don't evolve A. You are about to die B. Congrats it seems you won the survival game. Guess what ork codex states and nid dex don't.

And for that orks can't live on nids dining table -argument I quote myself from another thread

@NL_Cirrus

You say that orks can't spawn out of rock but I beg to differ. You assume orks are similiar beings to other creatures but we already know for a fact that orks have some sort of link to the warp and warp is full of energy. I believe that orks don't need nutrients to grow like humans, tau etc. Because energy can be formed out of materia and vice versa, orks most likely draw the nessesary energy from the warp in a similiar manner psyker draw power for their "spells" . Also the fact old ones were masters of warp supports this theory.

EDIT: And if nids have infinate guns then orks have too. Looting isn't the newest consept.

Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd like to point out something.



No race will ever outnumber the Tyranids. That's a single Hive Fleet - one Fleet of potentially millions, and it's already thicker and longer than the galaxy is.

Somebody mentioned it being a game of sheer overall numbers as "Orkz outnumber every race in the galaxy". In that regard, the Tyranids win, hands down (Also, the Orkz may not outnumber the Necron, but nobody knows exactly how many of those there are). They grow in linear scale with their enemy - the more enemies they fight, the more Tyranids there are. A single Hive Ship got to Ghorala, and swiftly adapted, grew, and overcame the Orks on that world.

As for the Ork codex saying that "Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore." - That's all of the 'scary races' doom endings that will never happen. If every Daemon appeared from the Warp, they would wipe out the galaxy. If every Necron woke up, they would wipe out the galaxy. If the Tyranids get here, they'll wipe out the galaxy. Bla bla bla. It's 40k.

As for "Orkz advance in tactics" - So do the Tyranids. They adapt behaviorally as well as physically. It's called evolution. The reason they haven't made bugs perfectly designed to kill Orkz is because they effectively work by natural selection. No swarm has ever had enough time to adapt completely - for example, becoming immune to bullets would require a long-lasting war in which an enemy uses bullets to kill Nids very often. Natural selection requires many losses, and when battles happen, the Nids either win or lose, without enough time given to start adapting.

Battle = spores = infinite Orks? That means unlimited biomass. Unlimited biomass means an unlimited amount of time and resources to spend on adaption. Nothing can adapt better than natural selection can.

As for the Orks being the only race who can survive, even thrive, after the Tyranids have consumed a planet? I doubt that, unless they can spore/survive on an airless world with literally zero useful materials left in it. They take the useful components from the ground, they take the sky, they take the sea, and they take every scrap of biomass. Besides, even if Orks could survive - all it meant is that they survived the Nids, not won, as "Nids destroying everything" would be considered a victory, I think.

Really, it's a matter of time before the Tyranids win. Both sides improve as the fight rages on, but the Tyranids don't just learn from their experiences, they adapt. Eventually, unlimited biomass will start resulting in tank-sized Gaunts with a carapace harder than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

That's another thing. Orks can build with nearly anything - but unlimited Orks doesn't mean unlimited weapons. With Tyranids, it does.

Buuuuuuuut this is a rather pointless thing to argue about. Especially since it's Workshop and this means it will never, ever, ever be resolved, without the whole system getting swallowed by a magical Warp Storm or the fighting waking up enough Necron to wipe out both sides. Or the Eldar coming in and retconning everything with fairy magic.

All in all, it's tough for both sides. It's effectively a war of attrition, and Nids are just too good at that to lose.


EDIT: Also, Warriors aren't based from Space Marine DNA. That's Tyrant Guard.

Whoops you are correct I even actually meant that about tyant guard not warriors Sorry slip of the tounge there. But what on earth does that picture have to do with anything? It looks completely photo-shopped

Unlimted nids = unlimited ork weapons, I'm certain we'd use your own claws, talons and sycthes against you before we even noticed we would run low on materials (which to mine a planet hollow seems very unlikely)

Still seeing a problem with the unlimited biomass theory though that every nid keeps proclaiming. Your method requires harvesting and creation from there even the tervogon isn't endless and even it has to be harnessed form absurd amounts of biomass same with all your synapses creatures which troops on troops would be harsh but a blow to the hierarchy can undo alot of effort keep that in mind. Same as a dead warboss but most orks are eager to replace him so it's not really a question of replacement but skill for orks... again an endless war would suggest that warboss level orks would be sprouting up left and right after surviving these super gaunts you speak of (once again imagining considerable biomass here for each one.)

I think tactically we are both more or less equal when it comes to tactics I am just saying that so many nids say "we're endless we win" when Space marines, Eldar and IG seem to thrwart the advances of it pretty consistently.

So here are my problems with the Nids saying "it's a matter of time", again i understand this is an exercise in futility but it does get fun to sharpen my lore and understanding of our races. (Btw i think both are races are perhaps the most frightening in the universe of 40k). My main problem stems for the idea the nids are just collecting and harvesting biomass unmolested by orks. I understand your process is considered perfect but as others have mentioned the Imperium has used much less to deal with these hive fleets than the orks would be willing to invest. I just don't see them having the same patterns against orks than they might against frightened Imperials who realize any move could be fatal to their tactics. This mostly is due to the fact i think we can all agree orks make mistakes but they can make so damnably many that its unlikely to change much if anything.

Hive ships vs primitive orks makes sense, but the Imperium and Eldar decoyed the nids here for a reason, probably cause it's a huge threat to the Imperium already so re-dedicating it's focus to nids is something i think too many nid players are just over-looking in favor of this flimsy bio-mass = victory theory because you perceive us as unable to replenish our numbers in nearly identically rapid numbers. My theory is this, when the imperium needed to stop nid advances it seems they are able to do so without fail... why is this? Not that they'd want to, but it seems only logical the Orks would be capable of replicating this resistance if desired (but again i imagine the orks would want to keep the bugs around fer good fightin)

While i don't agree with energy = ork growth it has already been established orks create their own food through squigs and snotlings which also bud off of them as instinctive as breathing I might add! Orks don't need nutrients to be born but they will require food after the event... which again they provide by simple existence. Call it magic call it sorcerry but orks are able to dwell on worlds that most couldn't exist on at all, also if you harvest oxygen and all other elements in the world PRIOR TO VICTORY you'd cease the cataclysts needed to make chemical changes within your hordes as these are absorbently used for the mutations needed in your army just as much as flesh and bone.

While I support the idea of super mutations Nids would rarely do this (in my mind) against hordes mostly due to untested nature, expediture in biomass not garanteed (which we've both established as needed to maintain the flood to keep our flood at bay), as well as the fact the reason the nid have "Archetypes" in the first place is these are traditionally optimal builds for the nids requiring relatively little in the form of biomass to make effective troopers. I'd see the Nids creating new genus and mutations when facing armies which have fought the war of attrition successfully but the orks will not do this. It's the perfect example of yin and yang push and pull... lets say the Overmind of the nids realizing how our battle benefits other enemies too greatly and attempts to leave the world, the orks wouldn't let them they'd bring the fight even harder wanting to keep going. If they orks wanted to leave (HA!) the nids would chase them down similar to the orks instead they swirl in endless cycle the orks overcharged waaagh rapidly increasing re-population while their bodies feed the nids ability to craft more soliders


Also, I think the reason the nids wouldn't be just overwhelming the orks is their DNA is truly most useful to the warm as biovores a long range small explosive creature which only means the horde would come to say hello! In other words we are built all wrong for useful stuff While I am aware you can use our biomass differently it means you are having to burn more resources to get something other than artillery and make our biomass more useful to you.

I am in the opinion that the Imperium is going to watch us fight till they see one side will win and Virus bomb us both noting how well they used us both... till then I am gonna enjoy chopping up some bugs!

P.S. Oh also necron > Orks in numbers... now I am just mad!!!

editted for spelling and additional subjects

Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd like to point out something.



No race will ever outnumber the Tyranids. That's a single Hive Fleet - one Fleet of potentially millions, and it's already thicker and longer than the galaxy is.

Somebody mentioned it being a game of sheer overall numbers as "Orkz outnumber every race in the galaxy". In that regard, the Tyranids win, hands down (Also, the Orkz may not outnumber the Necron, but nobody knows exactly how many of those there are). They grow in linear scale with their enemy - the more enemies they fight, the more Tyranids there are. A single Hive Ship got to Ghorala, and swiftly adapted, grew, and overcame the Orks on that world.

As pointed out, as single world is not really an ork fighting force. It's neither united, nor comparable in size to a true Waagh!

As for the Ork codex saying that "Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore." - That's all of the 'scary races' doom endings that will never happen. If every Daemon appeared from the Warp, they would wipe out the galaxy. If every Necron woke up, they would wipe out the galaxy. If the Tyranids get here, they'll wipe out the galaxy. Bla bla bla. It's 40k.

Agree, just like the size of that hive fleet is ridiculously oversized. The hive mind must be totally incompetent if it keeps failing to capture the galaxy with that many bugs.

As for "Orkz advance in tactics" - So do the Tyranids. They adapt behaviorally as well as physically. It's called evolution. The reason they haven't made bugs perfectly designed to kill Orkz is because they effectively work by natural selection. No swarm has ever had enough time to adapt completely - for example, becoming immune to bullets would require a long-lasting war in which an enemy uses bullets to kill Nids very often. Natural selection requires many losses, and when battles happen, the Nids either win or lose, without enough time given to start adapting.

Adapt what to? Orks don't have a pattern, tactics or even weapons to adapt to. The are utterly and totally random, so whatever nids turned out to be the most efficient at killing orks, might just as well been blown away by some contraption a big mek came up. Before they have adapted to that, the big mek will probably have already blown himself up, leaving the nids with adapted, useless new bioweapons.

Battle = spores = infinite Orks? That means unlimited biomass. Unlimited biomass means an unlimited amount of time and resources to spend on adaption. Nothing can adapt better than natural selection can.

Hardly unlimited. It's not like the orks are the only ones losing fighters. As long as the war is raging in a stalemate, both sides will need all their reinforcements to not lose the war.

As for the Orks being the only race who can survive, even thrive, after the Tyranids have consumed a planet? I doubt that, unless they can spore/survive on an airless world with literally zero useful materials left in it.

Actually, the codex says exactly that. Even a random asteroid is enough to grow orks on it, and that's made of rock and maybe some frozen gases.

They take the useful components from the ground, they take the sky, they take the sea, and they take every scrap of biomass. Besides, even if Orks could survive - all it meant is that they survived the Nids, not won, as "Nids destroying everything" would be considered a victory, I think.

Really, it's a matter of time before the Tyranids win. Both sides improve as the fight rages on, but the Tyranids don't just learn from their experiences, they adapt. Eventually, unlimited biomass will start resulting in tank-sized Gaunts with a carapace harder than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

Any orks not getting killed will grow in size, strength, speed and intelligence. Sooner or later the veteran warbosses will tower carnifexes and trygons. Ghazghkull Thrakka, one of the currently know largest orks, is said to have skin thick enough to resist bolter rounds.

That's another thing. Orks can build with nearly anything - but unlimited Orks doesn't mean unlimited weapons. With Tyranids, it does.

Orks turn anything into weapons. They might as well rip the klaws and carapace of killed nid's to use those as choppas, some mad doks might even implant tyriand weapons on orks. So, not really a hindrance. Not to mention the orks flocking to the fight usually using space hulks to do so, as in asteroids filled with metal.

Buuuuuuuut this is a rather pointless thing to argue about. Especially since it's Games Workshop and this means it will never, ever, ever be resolved, without the whole system getting swallowed by a magical Warp Storm or the fighting waking up enough Necron to wipe out both sides. Or the Eldar coming in and retconning everything with fairy magic.

My bet would be on the warp opening up. I also don't think necrons are as plentiful as you describe, as per the new codex about half of them seem to be awake, and while they rival the IoM in size, I don't think they live up to the power of chaos, nids or the united orks.

All in all, it's tough for both sides. It's effectively a war of attrition, and Nids are just too good at that to lose.

Agree, but a full-scale Waaagh! would crush the Nids before they had a chance to start that war of attrition. It's just too many, too well equiped, too powerful orks at once, usually lead by some "genius" ork who even has half a mind about tactics. Just like on the table top, it comes down to who gets to charge