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King Crow wrote:Just watch some people battle orks and 'nids in the game and see who wins most of the time. I think you'll fundamentally get who wins most the time.

it's normally a pretty damn good fight, I personally hate most the nid codex and it involves me being defensive from time to time actually but I can normally come out on top assuming I have way to deal with trygons

Hive fleet all the way. as someone already pointed out, the octavius conflict involves just a tendril of a hive fleet. If you refer to an entire hive fleet they would smash any ork waaagh with just the tip of their forces and then continue on to strip every planet and leave them lifeless. Hive fleet all the way.

Mr Nobody wrote:you'd think the Tyranids would develop a micro organism that would eat ork spores, that would give them the upper hand.

I seem to recall from the codex that they do have such organisms, and that they fight with the ork spores on a microscopic level as the two armies battle it out.

Mindshred wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:you'd think the Tyranids would develop a micro organism that would eat ork spores, that would give them the upper hand.

I seem to recall from the codex that they do have such organisms, and that they fight with the ork spores on a microscopic level as the two armies battle it out.

They do, here is a quote from the Lexicanium Article that was linked in the 3rd or so post.

"even on a microscopic level Tyranid Phage Cells consumed the aggressively spreading Orkoid Spores."

Unless they advance the Timeline, I doubt we'll see anything more than a Stalemate. With the Swarmlord entering the fray though, it's Ill tidings for the Octarius sector.

The Hive Fleet would use the Bio-mass of dead Orks to make more Nids so the Nids would win.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Saying each started with roughly equal forces, then the Orks, Orks will release spores on death and rapidly increase their numbers whereas nids stay relatively the same size

But the spores aren't instantly turning into full grown orks, lol. It isn't like they die, and then pop out like one of those little Russian dolls, smaller and angrier.

An ork will grow from a spore to a youf capable of fighting within a year. Once the conflict lasts a year or more, reinforcements start becoming endless. Plus orks tend to stop their petty local wars to join a big fight somewhere else, as seen on Armageddon, for example. There are warbands in that planet-wide battle that Ghazghkull Thrakka didn't convince to join, and aren't even loyal to him. They just joined the fray because they heard it's a good fight.

sennacherib wrote:Hive fleet all the way. as someone already pointed out, the octavius conflict involves just a tendril of a hive fleet. If you refer to an entire hive fleet they would smash any ork waaagh with just the tip of their forces and then continue on to strip every planet and leave them lifeless. Hive fleet all the way.

That's blatantly not true. Let's examine the facts:

Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed by the Ultramarines, their PDF and elements of Battlefleet Tempestus.

Waaagh! Ghazghkull was stopped by elements from at least 24 different Chapters (where the Black Templars alone provided 3000+ Marines, more than 3 times the total number of Ultramarines), countless more Imperial Guard Regiments, elements from two Orders of the Adepta Sororita, 4 Ordinati (or whatever the plural of "Ordinatus" is), 4 entire Titan Legions and elements from 3 other, and the Battlefleet Armageddon. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that Waagh! Ghazghkull would easily fight their way through a typical Hive Fleet.

Luckily for the nids, Waaagh! Ghazghkull already reached its goal: Eternal War on Armaggon.

As for the Black Templar thing, I can only quote Warboss Grahkrag from IA:8:
"No wonder they fought so well, the 'umies wore black, too. It's the color the 'ardest boyz always used."

Maybe the Nids are actually fleeing from their own Galaxy because the Orks have infested it.

The winner will be the Dark eldar archon sitting in his ship with a giant TV a beer and some Doritos watching the awesome ness from space.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

sennacherib wrote:Hive fleet all the way. as someone already pointed out, the octavius conflict involves just a tendril of a hive fleet. If you refer to an entire hive fleet they would smash any ork waaagh with just the tip of their forces and then continue on to strip every planet and leave them lifeless. Hive fleet all the way.

That's blatantly not true. Let's examine the facts:

Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed by the Ultramarines, their PDF and elements of Battlefleet Tempestus.

Waaagh! Ghazghkull was stopped by elements from at least 24 different Chapters (where the Black Templars alone provided 3000+ Marines, more than 3 times the total number of Ultramarines), countless more Imperial Guard Regiments, elements from two Orders of the Adepta Sororita, 4 Ordinati (or whatever the plural of "Ordinatus" is), 4 entire Titan Legions and elements from 3 other, and the Battlefleet Armageddon. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that Waagh! Ghazghkull would easily fight their way through a typical Hive Fleet.

Exactly, and all this was just so Ghazzy could massively divert imperial power and presence through the galaxy knowing he can now go else where and do it again ... and again... and again... and again... I would have to say Ghazzy vs. Swarmlord would be epic as hell and probably what it would take to overthrow the swarmlord in the sector. Thing of it like this, the Nids are Alien from the movie series (more or less) and it pisses off a Skyrim Giant, yeah... might be easy at start... then their mammoths show up, reinforcements show up, your health is low from the first encounter yadda yadda yadda.

The Nids might be known as the Great Devourer but their is a reason the Eldar and Imperium saw fit to pit these two armies against one another it wasn't to let the Nids win and get even more biomass it was so that both armies would fight to the bitter end. IF THE NIDS WON, it would be by the skin of their teeth and i think ultimately the Hive fleet wouldn't have much left in the form of biomass just simply due to the moment the nids shift in victory is the moment the Imperium swoops in to finish them off before they can regather biomass. Same if the orks won, they would face the orks before their numbers could replenish.

Over a long term stalemate I would hand it to the Tyranids. Every Ork that is killed gets eaten and grown into more Tyranids. In the end it would all come down to biomass available for the fight and 'nids are hands down champs at that aspect.

When Orks and Tyrnaids fight, it is the city that suffers.

Banzaimash wrote:Maybe the Nids are actually fleeing from their own Galaxy because the Orks have infested it.

What a twist!

bombboy1252 wrote:If a "standard" sized WAAAGH! was to go up against an entire hive fleet, the orks would be bug food. Not even Ghazzys Waaagh! would stand a chance if the entirety of Leviathan wanted for some reason to just chow down on them.

But with questions like this it's always a matter of who is in command of each army, for the Tyranids it's the hivemind. For the Orks it depends.

It's like saying "Who would win, SM chapter X, or Craftworld Y" it depends on a lot of things, not just who is fighting.

Well the standard sized tyranid faction is a splinter fleet, so I think this should be WAAAGH! versus medium sized splinter, they are both roughly the size needed to conquer a planet.

im2randomghgh wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:If a "standard" sized WAAAGH! was to go up against an entire hive fleet, the orks would be bug food. Not even Ghazzys Waaagh! would stand a chance if the entirety of Leviathan wanted for some reason to just chow down on them.

But with questions like this it's always a matter of who is in command of each army, for the Tyranids it's the hivemind. For the Orks it depends.

It's like saying "Who would win, SM chapter X, or Craftworld Y" it depends on a lot of things, not just who is fighting.

Well the standard sized tyranid faction is a splinter fleet, so I think this should be WAAAGH! versus medium sized splinter, they are both roughly the size needed to conquer a planet.

keep in mind Imperial star charts for Waaagh span whole subsectors to even segmentums if they get enough momentum and stories of good fighting and dead killy enemies, look to Armageddon they took over multiple planets just to hit Armageddon wait 30 years and then warn the Imperium they're coming back so they could have a good fight lol. Ultimately When an Ork dies his biomass helps fuel the orks, but that ork should haven quite a bit of nids with him just considering stats and the like. Basically i don't think we will know the answer and If I were GW i would keep the fight at a stalemate to keep rivalry between our two factions strong

In other words I dunno i can't on evidence say one or the other cause the nids could reinforce thier attack but so could the orks (reference to 3000 black templars + Imperial guard + Planetary defense force of Armageddon trying to stalemate Ghazghul vs. 1000 ultramarines erradicating the Hive fleet Levithan or was it kraken?)

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:If a "standard" sized WAAAGH! was to go up against an entire hive fleet, the orks would be bug food. Not even Ghazzys Waaagh! would stand a chance if the entirety of Leviathan wanted for some reason to just chow down on them.

But with questions like this it's always a matter of who is in command of each army, for the Tyranids it's the hivemind. For the Orks it depends.

It's like saying "Who would win, SM chapter X, or Craftworld Y" it depends on a lot of things, not just who is fighting.

Well the standard sized tyranid faction is a splinter fleet, so I think this should be WAAAGH! versus medium sized splinter, they are both roughly the size needed to conquer a planet.

keep in mind Imperial star charts for Waaagh span whole subsectors to even segmentums if they get enough momentum and stories of good fighting and dead killy enemies, look to Armageddon they took over multiple planets just to hit Armageddon wait 30 years and then warn the Imperium they're coming back so they could have a good fight lol. Ultimately When an Ork dies his biomass helps fuel the orks, but that ork should haven quite a bit of nids with him just considering stats and the like. Basically i don't think we will know the answer and If I were GW i would keep the fight at a stalemate to keep rivalry between our two factions strong

In other words I dunno i can't on evidence say one or the other cause the nids could reinforce thier attack but so could the orks (reference to 3000 black templars + Imperial guard + Planetary defense force of Armageddon trying to stalemate Ghazghul vs. 1000 ultramarines erradicating the Hive fleet Levithan or was it kraken?)

It was more than just 3000 black templars, their was also forces from several other marine chapters their.

If I recall correctly, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves should have been another 1k or so, plus a lot of other chapter each sending a company or so.

Another bit of comparison to toss in, Waaagh! described in IA:8 took down one of the Raven Guard's Shrine worlds while the entire Chapter plus five full regiments Imperial Guard were present. This Waaagh! had only recently started and was recognized as a full-scale Waaagh! only a few year earlier, when they completed their first gargant on the second planet they captured.

So once a Waagh! gets a few years of momentum, I doubt that a splinter fleet could stop it. In comparisson, the ork imperium named earlier is not a unified Waaagh!, but rather a bunch of independent ork settlements. You can pretty much tell by the fact that the first two planets fell to the tyranids without any of the other orks sending backup or even caring.

Jidmah wrote:If I recall correctly, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves should have been another 1k or so, plus a lot of other chapter each sending a company or so.

As listed at Lexicanum, with Codex: Armageddon listed as source:

Angels of Fire: 7 Companies
Angels of Redemption: 4 Companies
Angels of Vigilance: 6 Companies
Angels Porphyr: 8 Companies
Black Dragons: 9 Companies
Black Templars: 3 Crusades
Blood Angels: 1 Company
Celebrants: 10 Companies
Celestial Lions: 10 Companies
Exorcists: 12 Companies
Flesh Tearers: 5 Companies
Iron Champions: 7 Companies
Marines Malevolent: 2 Companies
Mortifactors: 10 Companies
Omega Marines: 9 Companies
Raptors: 5 Companies
Relictors: 10 Companies
Salamanders: 6 Companies
Silver Skulls: 7 Companies
Sons of Guilliman: 6 Companies
Space Wolves: 3 Great Companies
Storm Giants: 5 Companies
Storm Lords: 2 Brotherhoods
White Scars: 3 Brotherhoods

That's easily in excess of 10,000 Astartes. All this to fight Ghazghkull to a stalemate.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jidmah wrote:If I recall correctly, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and Space Wolves should have been another 1k or so, plus a lot of other chapter each sending a company or so.

As listed at Lexicanum, with Codex: Armageddon listed as source:

Angels of Fire: 7 Companies
Angels of Redemption: 4 Companies
Angels of Vigilance: 6 Companies
Angels Porphyr: 8 Companies
Black Dragons: 9 Companies
Black Templars: 3 Crusades
Blood Angels: 1 Company
Celebrants: 10 Companies
Celestial Lions: 10 Companies
Exorcists: 12 Companies
Flesh Tearers: 5 Companies
Iron Champions: 7 Companies
Marines Malevolent: 2 Companies
Mortifactors: 10 Companies
Omega Marines: 9 Companies
Raptors: 5 Companies
Relictors: 10 Companies
Salamanders: 6 Companies
Silver Skulls: 7 Companies
Sons of Guilliman: 6 Companies
Space Wolves: 3 Great Companies
Storm Giants: 5 Companies
Storm Lords: 2 Brotherhoods
White Scars: 3 Brotherhoods

That's easily in excess of 10,000 Astartes. All this to fight Ghazghkull to a stalemate.

Thank you, truly this highlights the main quote of the ork codex mastefully when it says on page 4 first sentences under THE ORK RACE: "... From the depths of the galatic core to the distant Ghost Stars of burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore.

Couple these facts with our Codex pg. 18 which speaks of: "Millenia ago, a probe was set out from Terra, it's mission to reach the utmost reaches of the Universe. The Techpriests who bulit it hoped that it would someday return to it's place of origin. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift. To the utter despair of the tech priests who monitor the incessant battery of incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that whenever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will either have been there first or won't be long before arriving."

This represents the absurd number of Orks in the 40k universe as even 14,000 years in a single direction proves orks are there too! combine this with our armageddon data and planets not involved but could be due to nid invasion turns this into pretty black and white conclusions on what could have been likely and unlikely. To me, the comedy thing with our army is a little too clear for doubt now.

Simple question once tyranids get a foothold on a planet: where does orks reinforce from? DOW2 states that tyranids simply eat everything to get note and is thus endless.

Dantanius wrote:Simple question once tyranids get a foothold on a planet: where does orks reinforce from? DOW2 states that tyranids simply eat everything to get note and is thus endless.

Once a splinter fleet makes a full landing on a planet, they are pretty hard to completely get rid of, but if you destroy the majority of them, the rest will go back to just being animals without any direction.

But it is completely possible to get rid of the bugs if they make it planet side..

Couple these facts with our Codex pg. 18 which speaks of: "Millenia ago, a probe was set out from Terra, it's mission to reach the utmost reaches of the Universe. The Techpriests who bulit it hoped that it would someday return to it's place of origin. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift. To the utter despair of the tech priests who monitor the incessant battery of incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that whenever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will either have been there first or won't be long before arriving."

This represents the absurd number of Orks in the 40k universe as even 14,000 years in a single direction proves orks are there too! combine this with our armageddon data and planets not involved but could be due to nid invasion turns this into pretty black and white conclusions on what could have been likely and unlikely. To me, the comedy thing with our army is a little too clear for doubt now.

Incorrect Im afraid, this is a common idea that pops up every so often.
The Orks are not spread throughout the Universe (at least not with any fluff GW have ever released).
The Milky Way Galaxy is about 100 to 120000 light years in diameter. Earth is about 26000 from the center. So the probe with 14000 light years on it is still well within the Galaxies boundaries.
Also 14000 years are not 14000 light years afaik.
There is no proof Orks have ever left the Galaxy or are widespread throughout the Universe.
Sorry to be pedantic, its just a personal bugbear of mine

I'd persoanlly side with the Nids on this one, I think their ability to adapt and bioengineer to counter anything they face would mean having them eventually create a way to neutralise Ork spores. Granted if it was a large warzone the Orks will keep piling in but at what stage does the Nid biomass reach a critical point and just become too strong for them?
Orks are essentially fungai, would the Nids simply bioengineer a weapon that eats them alive?

Very very interesting point earlier though about Swarmy being sent to Octavius because the Nids are at a standstill there.

Ratius wrote:

Couple these facts with our Codex pg. 18 which speaks of: "Millenia ago, a probe was set out from Terra, it's mission to reach the utmost reaches of the Universe. The Techpriests who bulit it hoped that it would someday return to it's place of origin. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift. To the utter despair of the tech priests who monitor the incessant battery of incoming signals, many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that whenever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will either have been there first or won't be long before arriving."

This represents the absurd number of Orks in the 40k universe as even 14,000 years in a single direction proves orks are there too! combine this with our armageddon data and planets not involved but could be due to nid invasion turns this into pretty black and white conclusions on what could have been likely and unlikely. To me, the comedy thing with our army is a little too clear for doubt now.

Incorrect Im afraid, this is a common idea that pops up every so often.
The Orks are not spread throughout the Universe (at least not with any fluff GW have ever released).
The Milky Way Galaxy is about 100 to 120000 light years in diameter. Earth is about 26000 from the center. So the probe with 14000 light years on it is still well within the Galaxies boundaries.
Also 14000 years are not 14000 light years afaik.
There is no proof Orks have ever left the Galaxy or are widespread throughout the Universe.
Sorry to be pedantic, its just a personal bugbear of mine

I'd persoanlly side with the Nids on this one, I think their ability to adapt and bioengineer to counter anything they face would mean having them eventually create a way to neutralise Ork spores. Granted if it was a large warzone the Orks will keep piling in but at what stage does the Nid biomass reach a critical point and just become too strong for them?
Orks are essentially fungai, would the Nids simply bioengineer a weapon that eats them alive?

Very very interesting point earlier though about Swarmy being sent to Octavius because the Nids are at a standstill there.

But nids have had thousands of years to adapt to orks and there is still no ork-proof counter. Ask yourself how many nids you can make from ork's biomass as everytime ork dies his death causes more orks to happen. Sure they don't apear instantly but time for ork spore to develop is much shorter due to the constant fighting. Everytime ork survives a battle he becomes harder to kill and he is better at killing you. The bigger the fight gets the bigger orks and their forces get. Normal ork become nobz, meks build bigger guns, lootas loot more guns, trukks drive faster due them being painted in blood, ect. Orks aren't afraid of nids, orks want to fight nids.

But nids have had thousands of years to adapt to orks and there is still no ork-proof counter. Ask yourself how many nids you can make from ork's biomass as everytime ork dies his death causes more orks to happen. Sure they don't apear instantly but time for ork spore to develop is much shorter due to the constant fighting. Everytime ork survives a battle he becomes harder to kill and he is better at killing you. The bigger the fight gets the bigger orks and their forces get. Normal ork become nobz, meks build bigger guns, lootas loot more guns, trukks drive faster due them being painted in blood, ect. Orks aren't afraid of nids, orks want to fight nids.

I think Nids could make an infinite amount of biomass from Orks since as you said they are essentilly unkillable due to spores.
This however plays into the Nids hands. With nearly unlimited biomass they can not only keep their own forces supplied, they can start to bioadapt new ones and effectively "experiement" with new bio units and creatures. Who knows what the Hive Mind could dream up given enough biomass.

Orks also take about a year to grow to maturity and a lot can happen in a year. Even if that is cut to say 2-3 months due to the intensity of the fighting, it still gives the Nids an operational window to work in where Orks numbers after an encounter are depleted/wiped out.

Im also not sure about Orks being unafraid of Nids. Sure in huge numbers they basically act like a fearless gang but in smaller skirmishes they would probably run like everyone else.
Nid terror and fear abilities took a huge nerf in 5th ed rules but fluff wise they are utterly terrifying, probably up there with Daemons as the true "fear causer".

In short Nids adapt constantly, Orks do not. So in the long run Nids should win because they will bioadapt whatever it takes to beat the Orks, either biologically or tactically .

I think Nids could make an infinite amount of biomass from Orks since as you said they are essentilly unkillable due to spores.
This however plays into the Nids hands. With nearly unlimited biomass they can not only keep their own forces supplied, they can start to bioadapt new ones and effectively "experiement" with new bio units and creatures. Who knows what the Hive Mind could dream up given enough biomass.

Orks also take about a year to grow to maturity and a lot can happen in a year. Even if that is cut to say 2-3 months due to the intensity of the fighting, it still gives the Nids an operational window to work in where Orks numbers after an encounter are depleted/wiped out.

Im also not sure about Orks being unafraid of Nids. Sure in huge numbers they basically act like a fearless gang but in smaller skirmishes they would probably run like everyone else.
Nid terror and fear abilities took a huge nerf in 5th ed rules but fluff wise they are utterly terrifying, probably up there with Daemons as the true "fear causer".

In short Nids adapt constantly, Orks do not. So in the long run Nids should win because they will bioadapt whatever it takes to beat the Orks, either biologically or tactically .

This is incorrect on many fronts the nid fluff included. The Nids have had ample time to review orkinoid genetic information, if your have read old codexs (should hopefully still be mentioned in new) Biovores are the result of tyranid reverse engineering of genetic data, just like Tyranid Warriors are the reversed genetic information of space marines, ect ect ect. The Tyranid do experiment but as other have already said before me the nids have already done this by making a creature which explodes with it's orkinoid spores rather than reproduce. This is best designed to slaughter orks due to their low armor and aoe weaknesses.

As mentioned before, Biomass is really not the game changer here. Yes Nids are endless they are ALWAYS endless regardless of the race they fight orks may give them the ability to harvest but not the time to craft as you must remember according to your data the last thing nids do is harvest biomass by releasing the ripper swarms to collect it and all other forms of passive biomass from the planet in which to be returned to thier hiveships and then crafted properly in mass this is probably why the stalemate has happened the orks are too territorial and the nids are just trying to get their foot hold. If they got it I can't imagine orks not being poor sports about losing and simply crashing large "World Krushas" into the planet that is overtaken very imperial style.

Also, as mentioned it only take 1 year for the orks to start producing in scales of endless reinforcement themselve. If there is one thing I am confident in it is the fact that even nids must sturggle to overwhelm and entire planet of orks within a year due to their number, toughness and tech. I haven't heard of any planets truly falling yet (this doesn't mean I am the best informed on the conflicts details at this moment) since this is the case I haven't heard of conquest I have simply heard of stalemate which means nothing lost by the orks they are simply just enjoying themselves in endless carnage.

As far as why the nids haven't developed a way to counter orkish reproduction is simple even with imperial augurs and auspex these sensitive microscopic tools haven't been able to effectively manipulate or influence the amount needed for one ork to reproduce. Think of it like water in a pond their is no longer an effective way once it has settled to remove it from the soil other than unnatural circumstances, the same is true with orkish spore repoduction. I think the main this nid players do no understand about Orkish reproduction is that they do not simply produce when they die, they also produce as they live and ontop of it during death or intense fights an ork doesn't simply reproduce one of his kind he reproduces many. THIS is the reason orks are beyond number giving them what they want which is battle is dangerous for the long term of any battle which the orks now have the luxury of gaining with each day more and more orks.

Honestly no matter how many nid players are going to say "biomass = endless" we will rebuttal "Battle = Endless" it's what we in the big picture buisness like to call rivalry in the form of a wash. No one has the advantage here it is simply in place to cause a conflict of interests and thus a desire to conclude you are the victor.

Nids in the form of fear are truly scary to the minds of people who do no have simplistic urges to fight. once 10 orks are around it really is impossible for them to comprehend fear even with pyskers this is simply something that has time and again been stated as "impossible" the Eldar can't do it, demons can't do it, chaos can't do it, Dark eldar can't do it, at least when in small groups or larger. Sure, get a few boys by themselves.... THEY DESERVE TO BE SCARED same thing is to be said of your gaunts without synapse creatures.

You say the nids constantly adapt and I agree with you on a physical scale but not a tactics scale EVERY ARMY OUT THERE knows how to fight the nids in fluff , 'kill the brainy bugs first' the old codexes even gave us this ability for free meaning it's obvious to Orks what to do. So ironically I offer you this, Orks might not change much genetically like your nids but they constantly evolve their tactics in warfare to match their enemy I would say besides Eldar they have more often than not proved to be pretty tactically sly using their perceived reputation as "crude" as an advantage for gambits which have been incredibly complex (look to Ghaz yet again)

Okay, in all honesty this is just a way for GW to say that horde vs horde, if you have played this game as long as i have you will know that unless it is the Imperium at stake no battle will have a true winner unless it is for drama's sake. In short you may think your army will win, I think my army COULD win but this is something that will likely fade from our focus as new fluff arises in 6th edition or the like. In short "I don't care who wins I'm just glad orks are having a good time... not like the battle decides anything "

Ratius wrote:
I think Nids could make an infinite amount of biomass from Orks since as you said they are essentilly unkillable due to spores.
This however plays into the Nids hands. With nearly unlimited biomass they can not only keep their own forces supplied, they can start to bioadapt new ones and effectively "experiement" with new bio units and creatures. Who knows what the Hive Mind could dream up given enough biomass.

Orks also take about a year to grow to maturity and a lot can happen in a year. Even if that is cut to say 2-3 months due to the intensity of the fighting, it still gives the Nids an operational window to work in where Orks numbers after an encounter are depleted/wiped out.

Im also not sure about Orks being unafraid of Nids. Sure in huge numbers they basically act like a fearless gang but in smaller skirmishes they would probably run like everyone else.
Nid terror and fear abilities took a huge nerf in 5th ed rules but fluff wise they are utterly terrifying, probably up there with Daemons as the true "fear causer".

In short Nids adapt constantly, Orks do not. So in the long run Nids should win because they will bioadapt whatever it takes to beat the Orks, either biologically or tactically .

But you assume that orks only genarate spores after death which isn't true. Orks generate spores all the time so orks already have infinate supply of constant orks. Nids need kill an ork and then harvest its' biomass and if you are not killed during the harvesting process by other orks you make yourself a set of new nids.

And for that fear part: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tuska#.TwXT8NUhCII and a fun fact about "Tuska" : http://www.sanakirja.org/search.php?q=tuska&l=17&l2=3

And finally I'm pretty sure the first thing tyranids bumbed into when they came to galaxy were orks so nids have more time adapt to orks than orks have had to adapt to nids. The existance of genesteela cults prove this.

IMO it would go like this. nids,orks fight fight fight.....dang planet gone. move to space fight fight fight. Oh new planet. land fight fight fight dang it! space figh fight fight.....rise and repeat



The only thing that will lose in that fight is the Planets

Ratius wrote:

But nids have had thousands of years to adapt to orks and there is still no ork-proof counter. Ask yourself how many nids you can make from ork's biomass as everytime ork dies his death causes more orks to happen. Sure they don't apear instantly but time for ork spore to develop is much shorter due to the constant fighting. Everytime ork survives a battle he becomes harder to kill and he is better at killing you. The bigger the fight gets the bigger orks and their forces get. Normal ork become nobz, meks build bigger guns, lootas loot more guns, trukks drive faster due them being painted in blood, ect. Orks aren't afraid of nids, orks want to fight nids.

I think Nids could make an infinite amount of biomass from Orks since as you said they are essentilly unkillable due to spores.
This however plays into the Nids hands. With nearly unlimited biomass they can not only keep their own forces supplied, they can start to bioadapt new ones and effectively "experiement" with new bio units and creatures. Who knows what the Hive Mind could dream up given enough biomass.

Orks also take about a year to grow to maturity and a lot can happen in a year. Even if that is cut to say 2-3 months due to the intensity of the fighting, it still gives the Nids an operational window to work in where Orks numbers after an encounter are depleted/wiped out.

Im also not sure about Orks being unafraid of Nids. Sure in huge numbers they basically act like a fearless gang but in smaller skirmishes they would probably run like everyone else.
Nid terror and fear abilities took a huge nerf in 5th ed rules but fluff wise they are utterly terrifying, probably up there with Daemons as the true "fear causer".

In short Nids adapt constantly, Orks do not. So in the long run Nids should win because they will bioadapt whatever it takes to beat the Orks, either biologically or tactically .

Almost every planetary conflict has taken years, if not decades to resolve (except those "resolved" by exterminatus). Even with space ships and all sort of awesome technology, we are talking about planets here. Consider how long a modern war takes on average, and those are fought in relatively small countries. Orks will have no problem growing their youfs up before the war is over.

I'd like to point out something.



No race will ever outnumber the Tyranids. That's a single Hive Fleet - one Fleet of potentially millions, and it's already thicker and longer than the galaxy is.

Somebody mentioned it being a game of sheer overall numbers as "Orkz outnumber every race in the galaxy". In that regard, the Tyranids win, hands down (Also, the Orkz may not outnumber the Necron, but nobody knows exactly how many of those there are). They grow in linear scale with their enemy - the more enemies they fight, the more Tyranids there are. A single Hive Ship got to Ghorala, and swiftly adapted, grew, and overcame the Orks on that world.

As for the Ork codex saying that "Should the Orks every truly unify they would crush all opposition and drown the universe in a tide of gore." - That's all of the 'scary races' doom endings that will never happen. If every Daemon appeared from the Warp, they would wipe out the galaxy. If every Necron woke up, they would wipe out the galaxy. If the Tyranids get here, they'll wipe out the galaxy. Bla bla bla. It's 40k.

As for "Orkz advance in tactics" - So do the Tyranids. They adapt behaviorally as well as physically. It's called evolution. The reason they haven't made bugs perfectly designed to kill Orkz is because they effectively work by natural selection. No swarm has ever had enough time to adapt completely - for example, becoming immune to bullets would require a long-lasting war in which an enemy uses bullets to kill Nids very often. Natural selection requires many losses, and when battles happen, the Nids either win or lose, without enough time given to start adapting.

Battle = spores = infinite Orks? That means unlimited biomass. Unlimited biomass means an unlimited amount of time and resources to spend on adaption. Nothing can adapt better than natural selection can.

As for the Orks being the only race who can survive, even thrive, after the Tyranids have consumed a planet? I doubt that, unless they can spore/survive on an airless world with literally zero useful materials left in it. They take the useful components from the ground, they take the sky, they take the sea, and they take every scrap of biomass. Besides, even if Orks could survive - all it meant is that they survived the Nids, not won, as "Nids destroying everything" would be considered a victory, I think.

Really, it's a matter of time before the Tyranids win. Both sides improve as the fight rages on, but the Tyranids don't just learn from their experiences, they adapt. Eventually, unlimited biomass will start resulting in tank-sized Gaunts with a carapace harder than Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

That's another thing. Orks can build with nearly anything - but unlimited Orks doesn't mean unlimited weapons. With Tyranids, it does.

Buuuuuuuut this is a rather pointless thing to argue about. Especially since it's Games Workshop and this means it will never, ever, ever be resolved, without the whole system getting swallowed by a magical Warp Storm or the fighting waking up enough Necron to wipe out both sides. Or the Eldar coming in and retconning everything with fairy magic.

All in all, it's tough for both sides. It's effectively a war of attrition, and Nids are just too good at that to lose.

EDIT: Also, Warriors aren't based from Space Marine DNA. That's Tyrant Guard.