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corpsesarefun wrote:Yes but communist ideology itself doesn't generally feature race or institutionalised mass homicide, it tends to be much more about "the workers uniting" and "all men being equal" and such airy crap.

Nazism is by default racist though.

And yet Nazism is considered far more abhorrent than Communism... I ain't even gonna go into Zionistic Conspiracies.

Please do.

Why though? If people wanna know the truth, then will have researched it. Me telling people it will just me look stupid. Even more so than I already do for my beliefs

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Yes but communist ideology itself doesn't generally feature race or institutionalised mass homicide, it tends to be much more about "the workers uniting" and "all men being equal" and such airy crap.

Nazism is by default racist though.

And yet Nazism is considered far more abhorrent than Communism... I ain't even gonna go into Zionistic Conspiracies.

I just said why Nazism is more abhorrent, it's inherently racist and genocidal as that's how the movements creators defined it.

corpsesarefun wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Yes but communist ideology itself doesn't generally feature race or institutionalised mass homicide, it tends to be much more about "the workers uniting" and "all men being equal" and such airy crap.

Nazism is by default racist though.

And yet Nazism is considered far more abhorrent than Communism... I ain't even gonna go into Zionistic Conspiracies.

I just said why Nazism is more abhorrent, it's inherently racist and genocidal as that's how the movements creators defined it.

Yes, and Communism is tolerated... Despite killing millions more.

Again, history is written by the victors. So the Allies just wrote it saying "Nazism is bad and stuff". Zionism, Zionism everywhere.

Gotta say that I truly don't know. I know that I don't like the government and would prefer a new but still democratic system.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Yes, and Communism is tolerated... Despite killing millions more.

... just like many have died in the name of democracy. Just like many have died in the name of religion. Just like many have died in the name of freedom.

Communism itself, for all of its many flaws, does not prescribe genocide. Genocide has happened in Communism's name, but genocide does not define communism any more than, say, a tyrant putting up fake elections defines democracy. Nazism does prescribe genocide.

Melissia wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Yes, and Communism is tolerated... Despite killing millions more.

... just like many have died in the name of democracy. Just like many have died in the name of religion. Just like many have died in the name of freedom.

Communism itself, for all of its many flaws, does not prescribe genocide. Nazism does.

Then why is the death toll under communism so much higher?

Because communism pretty much requires a dictator to instigate and that dictator normally decides he doesn't want to let go of power.

It's a crap method of government but not inherently evil just abusable, unlike Nazism.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:Communism itself, for all of its many flaws, does not prescribe genocide. Nazism does.

Then why is the death toll under communism so much higher?

Because communism is a poorly thought out system of governance which is very easy to abuse, and people who got to the top of the political food chain (despite the fact that there shouldn't be one in communism by its ideals) abused their power so that they could stay in power.

Would you say that a person who takes control of a democratic countryand abuses his/her powers to dominate the political landscape and form a dictatorship means all democracy is bad? There have been many instances of tyrants coming to power this way. Hitler was one of them I should remind you.

No, Communism is flawed for entirely different reasons.

Nazism isn't perfect. No political ideology is.

National Socialism is fine.

Taking National Socialism and adding a helping of eugenics, genocide, censorship and fascism is not.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Nazism isn't perfect. No political ideology is.

YEAH! The building is fine it's the foundation that's flawed.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Yes, and Communism is tolerated... Despite killing millions more.

... just like many have died in the name of democracy. Just like many have died in the name of religion. Just like many have died in the name of freedom.

Communism itself, for all of its many flaws, does not prescribe genocide. Nazism does.

Then why is the death toll under communism so much higher?

Because Russian and China have a higher number of people in general. If a country with 1 billion kills off 10% of it's population and a country of 40 million kills off 50% of it's population the former country would have still killed more people overall. The numbers game is lame anyway, and really stupid. The idea that Nazi Germany is better than Stalinist Russia becuase it is responsible for less deaths is idiotic since both are on the atrocity level; both are terrible and should be remembered as such.

That being said, Melissa is right that the inherent ideology of Communism does not extort any specific racial or religious hatred. One can always embrace the ideology and be taken into the fold even if one is Nigerian or Jewish. In Nazism there are several groups that never will be tolerated for any reason and will be actively sought out to destroy. Essentially in Communism it is join us or we will kill you, and in Nazism it is join us or we will kill you, unless you are X, Y, or Z, in which case we will kill you anyway. Both are pretty sucky options and lead to killing, it is that one is more aggressive in its literature that it gonna do some ethnic purging.

Lint wrote:This poll has popped up before...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412388.page

The choices are misleading. A better set would be:
Conservative
Liberal
Statist
Libertarian
Centrist

Better would be:

Conservative
Reactionary/Facist (extreme Conservative)
Liberal
Libertarian / Anarchists (extreme Liberal)
Socialist
Communist (extreme Socialist)


National socialists are nothing more than socialists/Communist with some Conservative traits.

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Nazism isn't perfect. No political ideology is.

YEAH! The building is fine it's the foundation that's flawed.

Thank you!

Dark Scipio wrote:

Lint wrote:This poll has popped up before...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412388.page

The choices are misleading. A better set would be:
Conservative
Liberal
Statist
Libertarian
Centrist

Better would be:

Conservative
Reactionary/Facist (extreme Conservative)
Liberal
Libertarian / Anarchists (extreme Liberal)
Socialist
Communist (extreme Socialist)


National socialists are nothing more than socialists/Communist with some Conservative traits.

This is also flawed, because it is a linear graph.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Nazism isn't perfect. No political ideology is.

YEAH! The building is fine it's the foundation that's flawed.

Thank you!

Facepalm

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

AustonT wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Nazism isn't perfect. No political ideology is.

YEAH! The building is fine it's the foundation that's flawed.

Thank you!

Facepalm

Forgot the /sarcasm. Sorry.

Also, the political spectrum is best represented as a horse-shoe style shape...

Melissia wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Lint wrote:This poll has popped up before...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412388.page

The choices are misleading. A better set would be:
Conservative
Liberal
Statist
Libertarian
Centrist

Better would be:

Conservative
Reactionary/Facist (extreme Conservative)
Liberal
Libertarian / Anarchists (extreme Liberal)
Socialist
Communist (extreme Socialist)


National socialists are nothing more than socialists/Communist with some Conservative traits.

This is also flawed, because it is a linear graph.

Sure, not perfect but for a poll at least optimal.

What you would need is something like this (sorry german language and for the german political situation):
[Found nothing better so fast]

corpsesarefun wrote:Care to explain that?

Communism requires a dictator to enforce the 'will of the people.' And ultimately it's the will of the dictator that matters. If a few hundred people have to die to help the majority, what's the harm?

biccat wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Care to explain that?

Communism requires a dictator to enforce the 'will of the people.' And ultimately it's the will of the dictator that matters. If a few hundred people have to die to help the majority, what's the harm?

Precisely my point; communism (presuming the dictator did release his power) can not lead to mass genocide.

Nazism, however, will always lead to mass genocide.

corpsesarefun wrote:Precisely my point; communism (presuming the dictator did release his power) can not lead to mass genocide.

Nazism, however, will always lead to mass genocide.

So long as Communism is abandoned it won't lead to mass murder? I suppose that makes sense.

I'm pretty sure Nazism doesn't require genocide. After all, Fascism was very similar to Nazism, and Mussolini didn't engage in Genocide...at least not in Italy.

But it wasn't out of nowhere. They felt betrayed by the European Jew and we exacting vengeance.

The mass murder of the Jews under Stalin was COMPLETELY unfounded. The Jews were the revolutionaries that put Lenin in power in the first place...

biccat wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Care to explain that?

Communism requires a dictator to enforce the 'will of the people.'

No it doesn't, and the writing doesn't call for one. It of course almost always leads to one becuase, man, that is a lot of concentrated power, but you don't have to have a dictator to have Communism. China hasn't been a dictatorship for a while. Hugely oppressive? Sure. Dictorship? No. A system can be just as destructive as any individual, you don't need a Dictator to be awful.

I have heard, that no matter the subject, Nazis always crop up somehow.
Gotta agree with both of both sides here: The Nazi Government did a great deal for Germany. Had Hitler not been what he was, Germany would have remained powerful. I think that surprise at Nazi hate is a little odd though, considering what they did in the end...

biccat wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Precisely my point; communism (presuming the dictator did release his power) can not lead to mass genocide.

Nazism, however, will always lead to mass genocide.

So long as Communism is abandoned it won't lead to mass murder? I suppose that makes sense.

I'm pretty sure Nazism doesn't require genocide. After all, Fascism was very similar to Nazism, and Mussolini didn't engage in Genocide...at least not in Italy.

Communism normally needs a dictator to enforce the changes (or a figurehead to act as a catalyst in shifting from a democratic system) to start out, after everything is set up it isn't necessary to have a dictator as long as the population is happy with being communist. Where it normally goes wrong is this initial stage where the dictator abuses his power (as is inevitable in all forms of dictatorship).

Nazism is by definition racist to the point of genocide, that's one of the features that distinguishes it from other similar forms of fascism or national socialism.

Nazism is the specific ideology of the superiority of the "Aryan" peoples over all others...communism is not.
Read the communist manifesto and tell me the part that says "btw feel free to murder your people at will". You can't, because it's not there.
We are more culturally opposed to nazism for two reasons,
1)We fought the nazis in the war
2)There is a cultural tradition of people on the far left being prominent in society, less so with the far right

4oursword wrote:The Nazi Government did a great deal for Germany.

I guess creating a bubble economy that will burst any moment and needs to be propped up by war to temporarily suppress the upcoming collapse could be considered good by some. The German economy under the regime was not stable nor long term. It created the illusion of prosperity, which, is a pretty poor measure of doing well. Getting trains to run on time doesn't really balance out all the British, French, US, Russian, et al lives that were lost. Even without the Holocaust they would be rightly disliked.

The bubble was started in Weimar Germany, the Nazi's just inflated it.