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... When did the Emperor order the Sons to be purged? o_O

From what I understand of the fluff - even the older fluff - the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus and his Legion back to Terra for judgement, but Horus changed Russ' orders and basically told Russ "The Emperor's changed his mind - kill them all".

Course, like I said I'm only familiar with the more recent stuff, so... /shrug

Wrong! The Thousand Sons were purged because Horus tricked Russ into burning Prospero instead of bringing Magnus back to Terra to stand trial for breaking the Edicts of Nikaea. And Captains Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights. Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Tadashi wrote:Wrong!

Not really. Read the fluff as it stands now.

The Thousand Sons were purged because Horus tricked Russ into burning Prospero instead of bringing Magnus back to Terra to stand trial for breaking the Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know that yet.
All we know is that the Emperor sent Russ and his Legion, who already have purged TWO Legions, to "make Magnus accountable for his crimes".

And Captains Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights.

NOT WRITTEN DOWN YET BUDDY!

The piece we have currently suggests that Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights, certainly.
However it DOES NOT STATE THEIR ROLE IN THE FOUNDING.

Since you seem to have no concept of how things work, let me explain it to you. For a long time now, the Founding of an Astartes Chapter involves many things. One potential is heroes from other Chapters being given the reins of the newly founded Chapter.

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

If you know fluff you know Russ was sent to Prospero to take Magnus into custody back to Terra, not to destroy Prospero. And even if they weren't part of the Grey Knights per se, Garro and Loken were still 'traitors' who were recruited by Malcador the Sigilite to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and it's Chamber Militants. And even if I were making opinions based on current fluff, there's nothing wrong with that, since your just trying to shoot down opinions that you don't agree with.

Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

I'm confused.

Tadashi wrote:If you know fluff you know Russ was sent to Prospero to take Magnus into custody back to Terra, not to destroy Prospero.

And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

And even if they weren't part of the Grey Knights per se, Garro and Loken were still 'traitors' who were recruited by Malcador the Sigilite to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and it's Chamber Militants.

Once again, you're jumping ahead and filling in blanks.

1) Garro and Loken were NOT traitors.
2)They were also not recruited "to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and its Chamber Militants".
3)They were recruited to establish a "defense" against something like this ever happening again...which they did, but we don't actually know how yet.

Kanluwen wrote:
And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

That's actually been under quite a bit of debate in other places I've seen. Just because the Wolves in Prospero Burns SAY they're the Emperor's executioners doesn't necessarily make it true.

Oh yes they were. Members of the Council of Terra wanted them condemned with their Legions, and only Malcador's refusal prevented this. And if Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why then did Horus have to intervene?

Skits wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

Where in the world did I say anything like that?

You're confusing two issues: namely the fact that there's TWO throwaway fanservice lines(One in "A Thousand Sons", the second in "Rebirth") which can be read to suggest that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons "survivors" and the fact that there's ONE line from a godawful book by a godawful author which helped bring about the "Horus Heresy Council" that you can read about on certain authors' blogs.

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

I'm confused.

No, my "reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong" fits around the fact that we have fluff on the Ravens. That has yet to be contradicted.

That fluff states that the Ravens' gene-seed is "relatively pure" but "unable to be identified".

The problem, once again, comes down to a simple fact:
People think they know exactly what is what, based upon two absurdly vague pieces in these two novels.

I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the fact that people are insisting that it can only be read ONE WAY.
It cannot. It was purposely written that way. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's purposely written to be like John Edwards, a well-known "psychic" who utilizes all kinds of unethical ways to bilk people out of their money, throwing out vague statements and hoping that people will bite.

Unable to be identified...yeah, right. Or they don't want anyone to know. You still haven't given an in-fiction answer as to why pre-M37 records are sealed. Or why someone high up blocks inquiries into the Librarium Sanctorum.

Skits wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

That's actually been under quite a bit of debate in other places I've seen. Just because the Wolves in Prospero Burns SAY they're the Emperor's executioners doesn't necessarily make it true.

So what other Legions have been used to "execute" fellow Legions?

Oh right. None.
It's also worth noting that the Wolves were one of the smaller Legions, which leads one to make conjecture that their role was not necessarily to be a "frontline" Legion like the others.

Tadashi wrote:Oh yes they were. Members of the Council of Terra wanted them condemned with their Legions, and only Malcador's refusal prevented this.

What in the world are you even talking about?
The fact that the Council of Terra wanted them labeled as traitors does not mean that they were traitors.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

And if Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why then did Horus have to intervene?

Okay.
Let me phrase this simply.
Russ was sent to exact justice on Magnus and his Legion.

Horus' whisperings simply pushed things farther than they were going to go. It was pouring gasoline on a fire.

Exact justice, in pre-Imperial Cult means to take into custody, not burn their homeworld down. Russ sent someone ahead to ask Magnus and his Legion to surrender and prepare for transport, only that someone was actually an agent of Chaos.

Tadashi wrote:Unable to be identified...yeah, right. Or they don't want anyone to know.

Who doesn't want anyone to know? The Blood Ravens have been tested quite regularly. No abnormalities have really shown up within the gene-seed.

You still haven't given an in-fiction answer as to why pre-M37 records are sealed.

Because there isn't one. You'd know that if you'd read the damn fluff available on the Blood Ravens. There's not enough fluff for you to be right--just for your theory to be shot down.

Or why someone high up blocks inquiries into the Librarium Sanctorum.

People high up block inquiries into many of the various Astartes Chapters and their shenanigans.

That means nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Exact justice, in pre-Imperial Cult means to take into custody, not burn their homeworld down.

Says who?
You are aware that the Officio Assassinorum existed right?

Russ sent someone to ask Magnus and his Legion to surrender and prepare for transport, only that someone was actually an agent of Chaos.

...
What? Where in the hell are you getting this from?

RUSS is the one "sent" to ask Magnus and his Legion to stand-down and be purged...which Magnus actually obliged.

Kasper Ansbach Hawser, a supposed Hidden One of the Thousand Sons was sent shortly before the Burning of Prospero by Leman Russ asking Magnus and his Legion to assemble for surrender. Only Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, but a Chaos Agent. This is from Prospero Burns. If Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why would he ask the Sons to assemble?

And the Assassinorum was meant to eliminate individuals, not entire Legions, and those individuals who the Imperium could not openly intervene on.

Tadashi wrote:Kasper Ansbach Hawser, a supposed Hidden One of the Thousand Sons was sent shortly before the Burning of Prospero by Leman Russ asking Magnus and his Legion to assemble for surrender. Only Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, but a Chaos Agent. This is from Prospero Burns.

I think we read different books. Because nothing in mine suggested that Hawser was a "Chaos Agent".

If Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why would he ask the Sons to assemble?

Really? You don't see the advantage in having THE ENTIRETY OF THE LEGION in one place to be exterminated?

And the Assassinorum was meant to eliminate individuals, not entire Legions, and those individuals who the Imperium could not openly intervene on.

The Officio was meant to eliminate individuals who defied the Emperor.
"Nemesis", a Horus Heresy novel, details the fact that an "Assassination Force" was assembled to kill Horus during the Heresy.

So there goes your explanation of that one down the drain.

For surrender. I don't like the Wolf King, but he was one of the most honorable Primarchs, and no matter who ordered him, he would never have gunned down enemies who surrendered. Hawser is a Chaos agent meant to look like a Hidden One. Russ' message never reached Magnus, which was basically the final reason Russ ordered the assault on Prospero.

Maybe you should be an Inquisitor instead of a Guardsman, since you seem to delight in shooting down people's opinions, and crushing any sense of individual thinking. The greatest traitors in Imperial history aren't Horus and his followers, it's the agents of the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition and the heads of the Administratum who took advantage after the end of the Horus Heresy, preventing any chance of rebuilding everything the Emperor worked so hard to build.

Could the traitors calling the Blood Ravens "brothers" perhaps be a glance into the future? In the Space Marine video game, Lord Nemeroth also calls Captain Titus "brother"...... an Ultramarine......

Perhaps they see events unfolding that will shake the loyalty of the Blood Ravens in the future and that of Cpt Titus.

You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

Where in the world did I say anything like that?

The line I quoted in my post. Basically I'm reading it as "ignore the fluff we already have about Horus diverting Russ because it might not remain the same with the new stuff we're getting." Which to me boils down to "ignore existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong".

You're confusing two issues: namely the fact that there's TWO throwaway fanservice lines(One in "A Thousand Sons", the second in "Rebirth") which can be read to suggest that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons "survivors" and the fact that there's ONE line from a godawful book by a godawful author which helped bring about the "Horus Heresy Council" that you can read about on certain authors' blogs.

What classifies them as "throwaway fanservice lines"? The lines about the Wolves being the Emperor's executioners could also be considered "throwaway fanservice lines". Which would give THAT just as much, or as little, sway as the ones about the Sons/Ravens.

Also, your theory about the Wolves being a smaller legion makes no sense to me. If they were meant to be the Emperor's Executioners, wouldn't they then need to be large enough to "execute" ANY legion, including the ones that are, at that point, much larger than them? The Wolves may be good, but they're not that good.

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

No, my "reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong" fits around the fact that we have fluff on the Ravens. That has yet to be contradicted.

That fluff states that the Ravens' gene-seed is "relatively pure" but "unable to be identified".

"Relatively" pure. Doesn't necessarily mean "entirely pure". And after ten thousand years, Emperor only knows what people consider "relatively pure" these days. As for "unable to be identified" - just because they say that doesn't necessarily make it true. If the Ravens ARE from the Sons, I doubt they'd want people knowing that the Ravens are from a Traitor Legion. That particular small piece of fluff means very little in the overall scheme of things, I think.

From what I know of the Ravens fluff - they're a fleet-based chapter, who have a surprising number of psykers amongst them. They're somewhat prone to corruption - according to all the DoW games, with several different Ravens (including the Chapter Master!) falling to Chaos at one point or another. They don't know anything about their founding chapter, all records of their origins either can't be accessed or no longer exist, and their gene-seed is tested even more frequently/vigorously for corruption/mutation than other Chapters.

Nothing in that says, definitively, that they CANNOT be Thousand Sons. However, a lot of that could be read to suggest that the Ravens are Sons.

From what I've gathered from this thread, one of your arguments that the Ravens couldn't have come from the Sons was because of older fluff saying that all the Sons were on Prospero. And yet, now we have newer fluff saying that hey, not ALL the Sons were on Prospero.

So you saying that we should ignore the "newer fluff" (Goto's books, A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Rebirth) in favour of said "older fluff" (all the Sons being on Prospero), and then turning around and saying that we should ignore "current fluff" (Horus changing Russ' orders - older fluff) because "future fluff" (newer fluff) might contradict that... well, it comes across as a bit hypocritical, something of a double standard. See what I'm getting at?

The problem, once again, comes down to a simple fact:
People think they know exactly what is what, based upon two absurdly vague pieces in these two novels.

Honestly, I base my theory on why the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons on a fair bit more than just "two absurdly vague pieces". Granted, a lot of my theory is based on speculation, tenuous connections, and leaps of logic - but that's why I enjoy it so much. To me, there's a lot more evidence than just a couple of throwaway lines. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is conspiracy.

However, I also acknowledge that just because I believe the Sons/Ravens thing doesn't necessarily make it right or true. Which is why I'm trying to find out as much information as I possibly can. So far, in my experience, I've found a lot more that supports the "it's possible" theory rather than the "it's impossible" theory.

I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the fact that people are insisting that it can only be read ONE WAY.
It cannot. It was purposely written that way. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's purposely written to be like John Edwards, a well-known "psychic" who utilizes all kinds of unethical ways to bilk people out of their money, throwing out vague statements and hoping that people will bite.

I don't know where anyone in this thread so far has insisted that it can only be read ONE WAY. Everything in all the 40K fluff is open to interpretation, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind why you seem to be so adamant that Blood Ravens originating from the Thousand Sons is so horribly wrong. If anything, I'm getting the impression that you are insisting that everything all be read the one way - that way being that the Ravens COULD NOT be the Sons. Don't misunderstand me though - I have nothing against you having that opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, after all.

See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

I don't remember anything being specifically said about the worlds that the Ravens recruit from having a high, or even noticeable, population of psykers. If you could point me towards specific sources that do say that, I'd appreciate it.

Like I said, from my own information-gathering, I've seen very little that points to the Ravens definitively NOT being Sons, and a lot that does at least suggest it.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

I remember reading that article - and that's yet another piece of fluff that suggests the Ravens/Sons link - and does NOTHING to "point towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons."

Only Cyrene (a recruiting world) had a large psychic population like Prospero once had, except Cyrene is in ashes, and the Blood Ravens still have a lot of psykers in their ranks. And since you discount Black Library publishings, Meridian, Calderis, and formerly Typhon have never been mentioned as having large psychic populations. And Skits has a point - would the Mechanicus be so illogical as to bring about the destruction of a loyal Chapter by revealing that their gene-seed is from a Traitor Legion? You debunk the evidence pseudo-Inquisitor, because it contradicts older fluff. Apparently your ignoring the fact that newer fluff has appeared that now contradicts your older fluff.

Kanluwen wrote:See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

Kan, your argument is not definitive no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Their origins are purposefully mysterious in classic 40k style, and frankly there are more than enough hints running around that they are tsons to make you calling the theory wrong (in bold no less) a stretch at best. You are not the arbiter of fluff on this site, and 'disliking people who constantly repeat the same arguement' is a bit ironic.

I see nothing in your position which is ironclad or any more or less valid than the op's position, so please step off the high horse and join the rest of us down here in 'we don't know' land. Some people haven't debated the topic before, let them have fun and explore, you have said your piece.

Skits wrote:When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

I don't remember anything being specifically said about the worlds that the Ravens recruit from having a high, or even noticeable, population of psykers. If you could point me towards specific sources that do say that, I'd appreciate it.

"While there is no fixed base of operations for the Blood Ravens, there are a number of planets, ranging from feral worlds of club-wielding savages to sprawling hive worlds, from which the Chapter consistently draws recruits. There appears to be no rhyme or reason to this process, but there are a number of worlds in particular that the Blood Ravens favor over others. It has been suggested that these worlds have a higher incidence of Psykers than normal, though such speculation has never been substantiated".

Index Astartes: Blood Ravens.
White Dwarf 295, August 2004.

There's also a piece about Cyrene, but it's linking the rise in mutant births on Cyrene to a rise in the nascent psyker population and how that can only be "bad, mmmkay".

Like I said, from my own information-gathering, I've seen very little that points to the Ravens definitively NOT being Sons, and a lot that does at least suggest it.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

I remember reading that article - and that's yet another piece of fluff that suggests the Ravens/Sons link - and does NOTHING to "point towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons."

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

Tadashi wrote:Only Cyrene (a recruiting world) had a large psychic population like Prospero once had, except Cyrene is in ashes, and the Blood Ravens still have a lot of psykers in their ranks.

See above.

And since you discount Black Library publishings, Meridian, Calderis, and formerly Typhon have never been mentioned as having large psychic populations.

No, I discount C.S. Goto's publishings. Because they're garbage and have Terminators backflipping/surfing on tanks.

And Skits has a point - would the Mechanicus be so illogical as to bring about the destruction of a loyal Chapter by revealing that their gene-seed is from a Traitor Legion?

Is this a serious question?
The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

You debunk the evidence pseudo-Inquisitor, because it contradicts older fluff.

No, I debunk the evidence because you're essentially trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Apparently your ignoring the fact that newer fluff has appeared that now contradicts your older fluff.

Not really. There hasn't really been anything which contradicts the fluff I refer to, while yours has been.

Oh sure, they experiment with monstrosities. Yet I wonder why the Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch them. Oh that's right, someone high up is looking out for us. Oh, and what's this I see, wulfen! Space Wolves have monsters too, pseudo-Inquisitor. And newer fluff does nothing to contradict the idea that Blood Ravens could be descended from the Thousand Sons. Actually, it's the opposite, they support it.

MajorTom11 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

Kan, your argument is not definitive no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Their origins are purposefully mysterious in classic 40k style, and frankly there are more than enough hints running around that they are tsons to make you calling the theory wrong (in bold no less) a stretch at best.

You've done nothing but illustrate my point perfectly. There's HINTS that they are somehow related to the Thousand Sons. There's also hints that they can be related to the Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or any number of the Loyalist Chapters.

Assuming that they are directly related to one single Legion is silly.

You are not the arbiter of fluff on this site, and 'disliking people who constantly repeat the same arguement' is a bit ironic.

Sorry, where did I say I'm the "arbiter of fluff"?

I see nothing in your position which is ironclad or any more or less valid than the op's position, so please step off the high horse and join the rest of us down here in 'we don't know' land.

Right. Other than having debunked the "prophecy" multiple times or pointed out that it was likely nothing but foreshadowing/literary shenanigans for the allusion in "Rebirth"--I very clearly have "nothing in my position".

Some people haven't debated the topic before, let them have fun and explore, you have said your piece.

And yet, they have no interest in "having fun and exploring" anything new. Maybe we should just start opening up dead threads since we're just recycling the same content.

Kan, that's a MOD. Be careful.

Tadashi wrote:Oh sure, they experiment with monstrosities.

And you know who else did?
Hint:

Yet I wonder why the Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch them. Oh that's right, someone high up is looking out for us.

The Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch any of the Chapters which have "questionable" practices, so that point is kinda moot.

Oh, and what's this I see, wulfen! Space Wolves have monsters too, pseudo-Inquisitor.

Yeah. And you know where those monsters have been? The Eye of Terror, with the rest of the 13th Company.

And newer fluff does nothing to contradict the idea that Blood Ravens could be descended from the Thousand Sons. Actually, it's the opposite, they support it.

So you have something contradicting the fact that it's their gene-seed, which is rigorously tested and screened, supplying them with psykers?
You have something contradicting the fact that the Chapter, when it was founded, was organized as a Codex Chapter, and the Librarian heavy Chapter only came to exist after an ambush killing the leadership of the Chapter?

Until those are debunked, the fact stands that it's nothing but conjecture that they're descended from the Thousand Sons.

For my own money, I'd say they're descended from the Imperial Fists. They have that stubborn streak in them common to the Sons of Dorn.

And the predisposition to precognitive ability comes from the Imperial Fists? And you want more monsters...Death Company. And they're sealed history remains unexplained in-story.

Ahh, thank you, Kanluwen!

Though I will point out that the article specifically states that the Ravens favouring certain worlds because of the higher incidence of psykers is just speculation, and hasn't been substantiated. Which, honestly, could mean a lot of things. Or nothing at all.

Also, I'd like to mention that it wasn't necessarily the Sons' geneseed alone that made them psychic. If that were the case, there'd most likely be far more sorcerers and far fewer Rubricae. However, the Sons' homeworld was noted for having a high population of psykers - and in fact, had been populated in the first place because it was far enough away that the general population could develop their psychic skills without persecution.

The Sons, whose home world was planet with a high population of psykers. The Ravens, who seemingly prefer to recruit from planets with high populations of psykers. A link, perhaps? Maybe the Sons' geneseed works better with people who are already psychically inclined, and/or enhances the pre-existing psychic potential? Food for thought. Again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

If it wasn't relevant, why would it have been mentioned at all? Sure, it's only one mention in four pages of text... but the fact that it's there at all is potentially rather telling. It certainly doesn't lend ANY credulousness to the theory that the Ravens could not possibly be Sons. Yet again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

If they're not considered loyal, why do they still exist? They MUST be considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, otherwise they would've been exterminated by now for being renegades or traitors. Sure, they may not be Ultramarines-level loyal, but honestly, who is?

So, again. We have a (mostly) loyal chapter. WHY would those in charge bring about the destruction of a (mostly) loyal Chapter by letting everyone know that they're descended from a Traitor Legion?

Slight tangent - experimenting with monstrosities? Where's that mentioned? I don't recall anything like that. o_O

And you still haven't answered my previous question: When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Death Company aren't "monsters" in any sense. They're part of a gene-seed flaw certainly, but it's not altering their physiology like the Flesh Change did. It also isn't expressed in every single member of the Blood Angels.