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Also, disregarding everything Goto wrote just because you don't like his writing is... well, kind of shallow, IMO. You may not like his writing (and I do agree that some of it is a bit... WTF. Like aforementioned back-flipping Terminators and tank-surfing. Seriously, lol), but that doesn't mean that you can therefore completely ignore its existence. It's part of the established fluff, whether you like it or not.

Skits wrote:Ahh, thank you, Kanluwen!

Though I will point out that the article specifically states that the Ravens favouring certain worlds because of the higher incidence of psykers is just speculation, and hasn't been substantiated. Which, honestly, could mean a lot of things. Or nothing at all.

Also, I'd like to mention that it wasn't necessarily the Sons' geneseed alone that made them psychic. If that were the case, there'd most likely be far more sorcerers and far fewer Rubricae. However, the Sons' homeworld was noted for having a high population of psykers - and in fact, had been populated in the first place because it was far enough away that the general population could develop their psychic skills without persecution.

The Sons, whose home world was planet with a high population of psykers. The Ravens, who seemingly prefer to recruit from planets with high populations of psykers. A link, perhaps? Maybe the Sons' geneseed works better with people who are already psychically inclined, and/or enhances the pre-existing psychic potential? Food for thought. Again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

And that was even before the "Dawn of War" novels suggested the tie.

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

If it wasn't relevant, why would it have been mentioned at all? Sure, it's only one mention in four pages of text... but the fact that it's there at all is potentially rather telling. It certainly doesn't lend ANY credulousness to the theory that the Ravens could not possibly be Sons. Yet again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

If they're not considered loyal, why do they still exist? They MUST be considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, otherwise they would've been exterminated by now for being renegades or traitors. Sure, they may not be Ultramarines-level loyal, but honestly, who is?

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

So, again. We have a (mostly) loyal chapter. WHY would those in charge bring about the destruction of a (mostly) loyal Chapter by letting everyone know that they're descended from a Traitor Legion?

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

Slight tangent - experimenting with monstrosities? Where's that mentioned? I don't recall anything like that. o_O

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

And you still haven't answered my previous question: When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.
Except Goto's stuff, but that's because he's bad.


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Skits wrote:Also, disregarding everything Goto wrote just because you don't like his writing is... well, kind of shallow, IMO. You may not like his writing (and I do agree that some of it is a bit... WTF. Like aforementioned back-flipping Terminators and tank-surfing. Seriously, lol), but that doesn't mean that you can therefore completely ignore its existence. It's part of the established fluff, whether you like it or not.

Shallow or not, GW itself ignores his fluff.

He was a godawful writer, and I hope he never gets work again.

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Agreed! That would cause an uproar among the community.

And, Kan, gene-seed is not corrupt. It just gives you a predisposition to certain things, but it does not guarantee you will have it. Look at the Blood Angels, not all of them fall to the Black Rage. And the Thousand Sons suffered the flesh-change because of unrestrained psychic abilities, their gene-seed just giving them a predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers, something the Blood Ravens have too.


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Kanluwen wrote:
Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

Kanluwen wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition?

For any number of reasons?

I don'y buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a bow of silence. And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition?

For any number of reasons?

I don'y buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a bow of silence. And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

"Whoever heard of a Chapter that's forgotten it's own Primarch? You'd sooner forget your own name!"
- Sergeant Avitus

Even ordinary Blood Ravens suspect their Chapter's dark origins...

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

I never said you were meant to. Heck, a lot of the stuff I base my theory on probably isn't meant to give that sort of vibe either. Doesn't stop people drawing connections. And again, it does nothing to actively dispute the possible Sons/Ravens connection.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

Fair enough point about the intention. However, it still doesn't actively dispute the possible connection.

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

That still doesn't answer the original question - if they're NOT considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, WHY DO THEY STILL EXIST?

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

What does the Sons of Horus have to do with this? And WHY would they REVEAL it? It'd cause far more trouble than it's worth. At best, that knowledge would put the Ravens under even more distrust and suspicion than they are already. At worst, the Space Wolves at least, if not other chapters as well, would attack and wipe out the Blood Ravens, destroying an otherwise loyal chapter and costing far more than it'd really be worth.

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Ahh, thank you. I'd forgotten that little detail. I don't know how "monstrous" those poor mad souls were though, hehe. S'pose it depends on whether or not they were possessed. Fair enough call.

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.

That's just it though - for all the "evidence" I've seen so far, not much of it has ACTUALLY disputed the theory - more of it has supported it than otherwise.

And if you choose to ignore Goto's stuff - and if GW itself is ignoring Goto's stuff - then Rebirth isn't "correcting" anything at all. It is separately and individually establishing in the 40K fluff that there is a possible connection between the Sons and the Ravens.

Kanluwen wrote:You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Not every single Thousand Son had precognitive ability, either. Not even just all the psychic ones. Only SOME of them were precog.

Where does it specifically say that "even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian"? As much as I love the Sons, I doubt that to be true. The only Sons we've seen in detail in fluff have been high-ranking members - so of course, they're all going to be pretty powerful. If they weren't powerful, they wouldn't be such a high rank. Doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were that powerful.

The Sons had several ranks of psykers, based on their psychic strength and potential: Neophyte, Zealator, Practicus, Philosophus, Adept Minor, Adept Major, Adept Exemptus, Magister Templi (the leader of each cult), Magus (Magnus), and Ipissumus (Emperor). Philosophus was the final cult rank a warrior could hold before facing the Dominus Liminus to achieve the rank of adept. None of the Sekhmet (1st Fellowship/Terminators) were below the rank of Philosophus.

That doesn't mean that EVERY Son reached those higher ranks. Some might never have gone beyond the lower ranks. Heck, in the Thousand Sons book, Ahriman himself makes a mental observation that Hathor Maat would most likely never go beyond the rank of Adept Major - and he was Captain of the Third Fellowship!

However, the main difference between the Sons and any other Legions psykers was their training. So of course you aren't going to see many Ravens reaching the sort of psychic levels the Sons did - they lack the same intense training of the Sons.


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Tadashi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

... Ahaha oh wow, that never occurred to me. It makes sense though!

Granted, again, it's just theory and supposition and drawing conclusions from little evidence, but still... /takes idea and RUNS WITH IT AHAHAHA

I got a new idea from this thread, hooray!

Tadashi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Agreed! That would cause an uproar among the community.

Sadly, for all the wrong reasons.

And, Kan, gene-seed is not corrupt.

Tell that to the Black Dragons Chapter, whose gene-seed caused them to grow bony ridges.

It just gives you a predisposition to certain things, but it does not guarantee you will have it. Look at the Blood Angels, not all of them fall to the Black Rage.

Tell that to the Raven Guard and Salamanders, whose skin pigmentation is a direct result of mutations in their gene-seed.

And the Thousand Sons suffered the flesh-change because of unrestrained psychic abilities, their gene-seed just giving them a predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers, something the Blood Ravens have too.

I'd suggest you reread "A Thousand Sons".
The Flesh-Change is the result of the gene-seed. The "unrestrained psychic abilities" was a by-product of the gene-seed and population blending together, with the stabilization of the gene-seed being present courtesy of a certain Ruinous Power.

The Blood Ravens actually did not have a "predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers" until AFTER a Librarian took command of the Chapter. In fact, Vidya was criticized by the Chapter when he first took command because of it.

If one wants to make a more believable argument for a Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens tie: it's entirely possible that Vidya might have been a survivor from the Thousand Sons. He was very powerful, and hesitant to take command of the Chapter. He planned out his war methodically and what's more, even his name is suggestive of a locale where the Thousand Sons were said to have recruited some Terrans from.

Kanluwen wrote:
Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

Of course it does. You want them to be Thousand Sons descendants so hard that even if something doesn't necessarily add up, you're deciding it does.

The Flesh Change had very specific characteristics in the Thousand Sons.
The article does not go much into detail on them, but it does make it clear that the entirety of the Blood Ravens Chapter is NOT consistent of psykers and that the "mutations" present in the Blood Ravens are par for the course when it comes to failed Aspirants.

I'm really not trying to be mean here. This is a pet peeve of mine, and I've had to argue it so many times it's become a point of contention.

Brother Coa wrote:I don't buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

Again: for any number of reasons?
The Exorcists and Red Hunters have much of their records sealed by Inquisitorial remit. The suggestion which the IA article puts forward as the "most likely reason" is that the Blood Ravens were one of those Chapters founded to face a particular threat, which they triumphed over and then would have faded into obscurity were it not for the fact that they later lost all their records and command staff to become something unique under Azariah Vidya.

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a vow of silence.

The Inquisition seals up all kinds of things. They don't necessarily do it because it's bad.

And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

Mass mutations+a burgeoning psyker population=A Very Bad Thing. It's not uncommon for such worlds to be the sites of massive daemonic incursions or even Enslaver incursions simply due to all the psykers present in one place.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

There's something wrong with the Raven Guard, they must be Alpha Legion!

This is why assumptions are bad. When you make a hypothesis without having scourved over every piece of evidence available, you end up with a bad hypothesis.

Yeah, so Azariah Vidya is a loyalist Thousand Son from seven thousand years before M37...that's a long time when you consider he's outside the Eye of Terror's time-lapsed area...and your ignoring the fact that Blood Ravens don't go psyker-intensive like the Thousand Sons, so the flesh-change won't affect them that badly. Oh sure, but what of the Blood Angels flaws? Not all of them manifest it. Simply, not all predispositions are as intensive as the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, just as not all Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens are psykers/sorcerers.

Skits wrote:

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

I never said you were meant to. Heck, a lot of the stuff I base my theory on probably isn't meant to give that sort of vibe either. Doesn't stop people drawing connections. And again, it does nothing to actively dispute the possible Sons/Ravens connection.

Of course not, none existed at the time.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

Fair enough point about the intention. However, it still doesn't actively dispute the possible connection.

Again: none existed. It was written before any connection existed, and did not have to dispute or tread carefully around such a connection being assumed. If you read back to around the timeframe of that article and the Blood Ravens' introduction, there was none at all relating to the Thousand Sons until that damn Goto book and people running with the line "Brother".

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

That still doesn't answer the original question - if they're NOT considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, WHY DO THEY STILL EXIST?

Okay, seriously now.
Plenty of Chapters are "loyal enough". These Chapters still exist for the simple reason that the Imperium cannot afford to waste the Astartes. They have to do something really bad to be declared renegade/heretic. Look at the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs. They had to secede from the Imperium, taking a huge chunk of space under their protection, to be considered "not loyal enough".

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

What does the Sons of Horus have to do with this?

I thought it was blindingly obvious. The Sons of Horus had no outward flaws. Their gene-seed was perfect. If the Mechanicus could use it, they likely would be.

And WHY would they REVEAL it? It'd cause far more trouble than it's worth. At best, that knowledge would put the Ravens under even more distrust and suspicion than they are already. At worst, the Space Wolves at least, if not other chapters as well, would attack and wipe out the Blood Ravens, destroying an otherwise loyal chapter and costing far more than it'd really be worth.

An "otherwise loyal Chapter" which at some point in their history has had a full half of the Chapter go traitor, under the command of a possessed Librarian.

That seems like the kind of thing that would be more likely to happen to someone not of Thousand Sons lineage, now doesn't it?

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Ahh, thank you. I'd forgotten that little detail. I don't know how "monstrous" those poor mad souls were though, hehe. S'pose it depends on whether or not they were possessed. Fair enough call.

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.

That's just it though - for all the "evidence" I've seen so far, not much of it has ACTUALLY disputed the theory - more of it has supported it than otherwise.

Once again, because you're wanting it to.

And if you choose to ignore Goto's stuff - and if GW itself is ignoring Goto's stuff - then Rebirth isn't "correcting" anything at all. It is separately and individually establishing in the 40K fluff that there is a possible connection between the Sons and the Ravens.

And the author of "Rebirth" is considered by a few other BL authors to have been very hamfisted with how he did it. Fact of the matter is that it has not established any real, positive connection. All it has established is that because of a turn of a shoulderpad, the Corvidae symbol looked like a raven skull covered in blood.

Kanluwen wrote:You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Not every single Thousand Son had precognitive ability, either. Not even just all the psychic ones. Only SOME of them were precog.

I should have clarified more. I am not referring to the precognitive ability in my post. I am referring to PSYCHIC ability.
Every single member of the Thousand Sons was psychic, in some way or another.

Where does it specifically say that "even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian"? As much as I love the Sons, I doubt that to be true. The only Sons we've seen in detail in fluff have been high-ranking members - so of course, they're all going to be pretty powerful. If they weren't powerful, they wouldn't be such a high rank. Doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were that powerful.

The Sons had several ranks of psykers, based on their psychic strength and potential: Neophyte, Zealator, Practicus, Philosophus, Adept Minor, Adept Major, Adept Exemptus, Magister Templi (the leader of each cult), Magus (Magnus), and Ipissumus (Emperor). Philosophus was the final cult rank a warrior could hold before facing the Dominus Liminus to achieve the rank of adept. None of the Sekhmet (1st Fellowship/Terminators) were below the rank of Philosophus.

That doesn't mean that EVERY Son reached those higher ranks. Some might never have gone beyond the lower ranks. Heck, in the Thousand Sons book, Ahriman himself makes a mental observation that Hathor Maat would most likely never go beyond the rank of Adept Major - and he was Captain of the Third Fellowship!

You have to remember that the more high-ranking members of the Sons weren't necessarily just powerful. They were able to express their abilities more, and usually able to engage in more than one particular form of psychic combat.

However, the main difference between the Sons and any other Legions psykers was their training. So of course you aren't going to see many Ravens reaching the sort of psychic levels the Sons did - they lack the same intense training of the Sons.

This I'm not sure of. Most of the "intense training of the Sons" wasn't. They were more about study and the usage of their familiars than actually knowing exactly what they were doing.

Since when did every Thousand Son become a psyker? If that's the case, there should have been no Rubric Marines at all, and the entire Legion should have survived the Rubric of Ahriman.

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, so Azariah Vidya is a loyalist Thousand Son from seven thousand years before M37...that's a long time when you consider he's outside the Eye of Terror's time-lapsed area...

So during his entire service with the Blood Ravens, he never once set foot on a ship going into the Warp?

The Warp does crazy things with time. Ships go in one century, come out another. It's entirely feasible.

and your ignoring the fact that Blood Ravens don't go psyker-intensive like the Thousand Sons, so the flesh-change won't affect them that badly.

Post-Vidya, they attempt to.

Oh sure, but what of the Blood Angels flaws? Not all of them manifest it.

No, but they all have a chance to.

Simply, not all predispositions are as intensive as the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, just as not all Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens are psykers/sorcerers.

All Thousand Sons were psykers prior to their gene-seed...but afterwards, some of the Terran members of the Legion became psykers too.
All Raven Guard are marble-fleshed with black hair and eyes.
All Salamanders are jet-black skin with red eyes and black hair.

Blood Ravens have to recruit for psykers. Thus, it's not a gene-seed expressed trait--which blocks Thousand Sons from being the gene-seed progenitors.


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Tadashi wrote:Since when did every Thousand Son become a psyker? If that's the case, there should have been no Rubric Marines at all, and the entire Legion should have survived the Rubric of Ahriman.

Not every Thousand Son was a sorcerer. The sorcerers are those who survived.

The Rubric was cast after they fled to the Warp. That makes it "after" in one of those timey-wimey ways the more powerful psykers started up with the sorcery.

Where did you get the idea all Thousand Sons were psykers? As I've said why then are there Rubric Marines at all? And Blood Ravens Librarians have an unusual number and psychic level of power. The Rubric reduced non-psykers to dust, and only them. Codex: Chaos Space Marines states that Marines with no psychic abilities were the ones who were reduced to dust.

And "A Thousand Sons" overwrites that, as every single member of the Legion exhibits some form of psyker abilities.

Unless you're trying to say that "A Thousand Sons" isn't canon?

No, not all of them. Officers, such as sergeants and higher, are psykers. Common Astartes are still non-psykers. If they were all psykers, there won't be any Rubric Marines.

No, even the common Astartes exhibited some psychic talent.

The codex might say that "only the non-psykers were turned to Rubric Marines", but the book now suggests otherwise. It suggests that those who were affected by the Flesh Change were those who became Rubric Marines.

After all, the Rubric of Ahriman was to stop the Flesh Change. He used a ritual from a book of Magnus', without fully knowing what it would do.

The novel is canon, except those points which contradict the Codex, which is the ultimate canon. Therefore while the novel's story is canon, the idea that all Thousand Sons are psykers is not.

Thing is, you're basing your "the Ravens can't be Sons!" on older fluff that existed before the idea came up as well. So, if it's just the fact that the fluff was around before the idea came up that completely invalidates it... that ALSO invalidates any older fluff that disputes the possible connection. Works both ways.

Plenty of Chapters are "loyal enough". These Chapters still exist for the simple reason that the Imperium cannot afford to waste the Astartes.

THAT bit is the important bit. The Imperium CANNOT AFFORD TO WASTE Astartes.

Therefore, why would they let out information that would most likely lead to the LOSS OF ASTARTES?

I thought it was blindingly obvious. The Sons of Horus had no outward flaws. Their gene-seed was perfect. If the Mechanicus could use it, they likely would be.

Like I've said, I'm not familiar with a lot of the fluff. Do the Mechanicus still actually have geneseed from all the Traitor Legions?

And if they do, how do we know that they -haven't- used it? They very well might have, if it's as perfect as you claim. It's entirely possible that they have used it, but haven't revealed that fact for the same reasons they wouldn't reveal that the Blood Ravens are Sons. The shitstorm that knowledge would stir up just isn't worth it - and they can't afford to waste the Astartes.

An "otherwise loyal Chapter" which at some point in their history has had a full half of the Chapter go traitor, under the command of a possessed Librarian.

That seems like the kind of thing that would be more likely to happen to someone not of Thousand Sons lineage, now doesn't it?

... Actually, that sounds like something that WOULD happen to someone of Thousand Sons lineage. The Sons showed they were more willing to follow their Primarch rather than their Emperor, so it makes sense (at least to me) for at least half the chapter to follow their Chapter Master/Librarian down his path of folly, instead of staying true to the Corpse-Emperor. And who better to become possessed than a Librarian who hasn't had the full training of the original Thousand Sons?

Once again, because you're wanting it to.

Wanting to has nothing to do with it. If I actually saw something that actively disputed it, I'd quite happily admit to it. And discuss it, and theorise about it, and go off on wild tangents and conjecture, just like I do with the stuff that supports the theory. Discussion and bouncing ideas around is half the fun!

If there was enough solid evidence that the Ravens totally, utterly could not be from the Sons, then I'd acknowledge and accept that.

Of course, I'd then proceed to ignore it in my own little personal universe. I reject your reality and substitute it with my own! But I wouldn't try to force my view on other people, either, or tell them that OMG THEY'RE TOTALLY WRONG HOW DARE U.

And the author of "Rebirth" is considered by a few other BL authors to have been very hamfisted with how he did it. Fact of the matter is that it has not established any real, positive connection. All it has established is that because of a turn of a shoulderpad, the Corvidae symbol looked like a raven skull covered in blood.

I do agree that it was rather... blatant. But that doesn't negate the fact that it's THERE. Sure, it's not a definitive answer one way or another, but then again NOTHING is. It's just another source of tidbits of information for people to take and run with, and draw their own conclusions.

I should have clarified more. I am not referring to the precognitive ability in my post. I am referring to PSYCHIC ability.
Every single member of the Thousand Sons was psychic, in some way or another.

That's just it though. NOT EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the Thousand Sons was psychic. Not even the MAJORITY of them were.

Like I said earlier in the thread - if there were THAT many psychic Sons, there would be far more sorcerers and far LESS Rubricae. As it is, it's well established that Rubricae - and by extension, Sons with LITTLE TO NO PSYCHIC TALENT, far outnumbered the Sons that WERE psychic. Just because we only see psychic Sons in the fluff so far doesn't mean that they were all psychic - it just means that the psychic ones were more relevant/interesting to write about.

You have to remember that the more high-ranking members of the Sons weren't necessarily just powerful. They were able to express their abilities more, and usually able to engage in more than one particular form of psychic combat.

I do remember that. That wasn't my point though - my point was that not all the Sons were psychic, and not all the psychic Sons were powerful or equivalent to a Librarian.

This I'm not sure of. Most of the "intense training of the Sons" wasn't. They were more about study and the usage of their familiars than actually knowing exactly what they were doing.

Isn't it mentioned in several places that the Sons were the most highly-trained in regards to the mental disciplines of all the Legions? I can't remember specifics, and I may be misremembering the general lines, but that's the overall impression I got.

And "A Thousand Sons" overwrites that, as every single member of the Legion exhibits some form of psyker abilities.

Where, specifically, does it say that? I never got that impression. Yes, all the named characters were psychic, but that's been explained. They were ranking members, they became ranking members BECAUSE of their psychic talents. That doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were psychic.

The codex might say that "only the non-psykers were turned to Rubric Marines", but the book now suggests otherwise. It suggests that those who were affected by the Flesh Change were those who became Rubric Marines.

I don't recall it suggesting that the flesh change was limited to the psychic Sons, or that it was only those affected by the flesh change that became Rubricae.

If it was those who were affected by the flesh change that became Rubricae, and if only the psychic Sons were affected by the flesh change... then only PSYCHIC Sons would've become Rubricae, and the NON-PSYCHIC ones would have stayed the same.

Kanluwen, why are you so determined to prove us wrong? I'm sure you can see that unless you can get GW to say outright Blood Ravens arent descended from TS then you won't change our minds. And if you hate doing this soooo much then why bother. Spend your time elsewhere and your sure you'll find more enjoyment then this. Just leave us to discuss this topic without you saying, Na yur wrong, over and over again. Just leave this thread to run it's course and then it will end.

The pseudo-Inquisitor-Priest isn't gonna give up. He's the real world equivalent of a 40k Ecclesiarchy Missionary determined to stop free thinking.

Tadashi wrote:The pseudo-Inquisitor-Priest isn't gonna give up. He's the real world equivalent of a 40k Ecclesiarchy Missionary determined to stop free thinking.

You're both as bad as each other.

You have a point, as does Kan.

Blood Raven are Thousand Sons OMG!! threads should be banned, they always end the same way

I'm not saying that blood ravens are I'm just saying that there is a possibility, which kanluwen seems to disagree with.

At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

So far I have not seen any evidence that says otherwise.

Kunjax96 wrote:So far I have not seen any evidence that says otherwise.

That's because a lot of the evidence presented is circumstantial. It doesn't need to say otherwise.

Like I mentioned earlier, once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is conspiracy.

If (generic) you want to convince people that the Sons/Ravens link is NOT POSSIBLE then yes, there does need to be evidence. And not just "old fluff vs new fluff" or "I'm ignoring that bit because I don't like it/the author sucks/whatever".

As it is, there are, IMO anyway, far too many "little coincidences", hints and clues that point to the Sons/Ravens link being POSSIBLE.

Not being irrefutable, mind - I am not stating, nor have I ever stated, that the Sons/Ravens link MUST BE TRUE. I'm just saying that there's far too much saying it's possible, and nothing - or nearly nothing, that I've seen - that says it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

If I reopen those, it's thread necromancy.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

If I reopen those, it's thread necromancy.

My point was you haven't covered anything different than those threads already have, did you really need to start another conversation going over the same details? If you had something new to throw into the pot then fair enough, new thread. Otherwise it's just more Kan bait.

This thread has given me some new stuff to chew over. And has been highly entertaining for most of the evening, hehehe. Just because you've seen it all before doesn't mean everyone else has.

Also, I've never seen anyone else make the Thousand Sons/Eldar connection that I mentioned on the first page. It's a tenuous connection, yes, but hey, it could be entertaining to muse over for a bit.