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CT GAMER wrote:I find it interesting that some people are quick to jump on this guy and poo poo his foam models, but yet we regularly see certain dakka tourney/competative gamer celebrities posting batreps in which they are proxying hand over fist in order to field what they expect to be the next ultimate min/maxed uber army. How come they aren't getting the same amount of grief from the community?

They should be held to the same standards like everyone else.

The Rule of Cool should be enforced.

Are you really going to be a whiny vagina if someone beats you with a TempurPedic vehicle instead of a plastic one?

I understand the whole "GWs game use GWs models" argument and believe in it, but you said it yourself there is no model for this flying garbage can. If TO says proxies are a go then knock the sand out and man up. Now I'd still expect this thing to be painted and follow rule of cool, not be a life preserver.

If he whips you then it will be because he is better at this game than you, not because he had vehicles made of laptop packaging.

Go for the common rule on scratch built models: it is nice? It resamble the original model enough? It looks like was made with "skill and care"? Im ok...

It is an excuse to dont pay? I dont care...

It is lame, badly done, forced... No, take that out of the table, and never ask to use it again...

Having seen the prototypes so far, unfortunately they currently look like crescent pancakes. They do have a cockpit! Maybe the model is supposed to be extremely thin, those cyclon ships are.

However, SR and Vendetta's can be borrowed so this is now a mute issue.

I play with foam Vendettas and have only heard positive things bout my army. The army looks like a very broke down IG army, and most locals call it zombie guard because of all the zombies converted into guardsmen. The vendettas are giant floating rocks (made of plaster coated foam) with gw lascannons and a gw model as a psyker pilot. I went with the conversion idea because I wasn't able to see my army keeping aircraft in operation as they are a black hole that sucks in spare parts and man hours in order to stay operational, especially in desert conditions. Plus I wanted the army to seem more psyker heavy.

Plenty of nid players use foam and a hot glue gun for spores. It actually looks good when done right.

nkelsch wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:I find it interesting that some people are quick to jump on this guy and poo poo his foam models, but yet we regularly see certain dakka tourney/competative gamer celebrities posting batreps in which they are proxying hand over fist in order to field what they expect to be the next ultimate min/maxed uber army. How come they aren't getting the same amount of grief from the community?

If they posted a thread in the sub-forums I read with their proxies and asked my opinion, I would be glad to poopoo on them too.

Personally, if you get a new codex, there is no entitled expectation that you have the 'right' to field any and all units in the codex in any quantity you feel like. If a model doesn't exist, then you have choices... Build a suitable 'counts as' which meets the appearance and quality requirements of the event, or don't choose that unit choice.

No one is entitled to meta optimal builds. No one is entitled to having official models for every unit choice. If you can't or won't build stand-ins which meet your event's requirements, then choose another meta build.

As an ork player and 15 years of no battlewagon, I have zero sympathy for bandwagoners who want to run an army of 7 doomscythes because they want the FotM optimum meta to win tourneys.

The subtext to this is that people with a bunch of money and the willingness to spend it are, in fact, entitled to field meta builds. Which is an idiotic outlook, to me.

If the point of a tournament is to win games by manipulating the options in a codex to the best of your abilities then there shouldn't be any sort of de facto economic glass ceiling imposed on players. I'm a big supporter of the salary cap in pro sports leagues... you must be an MLB fan...

And the "rule of cool" is thoroughly useless, because in actuality it's the "rule of what I think is cool" which gets you absolutely nowhere when you're in a situation that requires mutually beneficial compromise with another human being. Like, there are probably models that are scoring a 9+ on CMON which I wouldn't accept if given to me for free (unless I was allowed to chuck them on ebay right afterwards). Different people like different stuff, and cool is relative.

Altruizine wrote:The subtext to this is that people with a bunch of money and the willingness to spend it are, in fact, entitled to field meta builds. Which is an idiotic outlook, to me.

No... people who make a significant effort are entitled to field meta builds. Effort does not have to equal money. Money can buy effort through buying effort from others, but those who make effort on their own can build anything they want and have it accepted.

I have 45 lootas. 45 lootas retail is around 225$ US. Someone can make 45 lootas out of AoBR boyz which can be bought for less than 1$ per boy and converting bitz and plastitube. Both the person who buys 225$ of models and someone who spends weeks converting 45 custom dakka guns are both going to be rewarded with their metalist in the tourney. The person who buys 45 models, converts none of them and says 'these mix of burnas, big shootas and armless boyz are all LOOTAS, I believe in salary caps!!!' are going to not be welcome in a lot of places.

Of the point of a tournament is to win games by manipulating the options in a codex to the best of your abilities then there shouldn't be any sort of de facto economic glass ceiling imposed on players. I'm a big supporter of the salary cap in pro sports leagues... you must be an MLB fan...

You can define tournaments that way, I won't. The point of a tournament is to have a great day of organized play, a good day of meeting new people and fun gamers, to have fun games and explore the hobby through seeing new models, techniques and interacting with other people. Since a TO knows people come for different legitimate reasons, the TO has to set rules which includes the most amount of people and attracts the most ammount of people. You can have zero appearance rules and try to include everyone, and you will have people not attend your event as WYSIWYG and Appearance is important to many players. I think if a TO says Proxies are ok then everyone knows what they are getting and those who dislike proxies can choose not to attend. If you are someone who makes scratch built models, then you simply have to check if your model is appropriate for the TO's event because tourneys are not solely about 'the game' and exploiting your codex.

And the "rule of cool" is thoroughly useless, because in actuality it's the "rule of what I think is cool" which gets you absolutely nowhere when you're in a situation that requires mutually beneficial compromise with another human being. Like, there are probably models that are scoring a 9+ on CMON which I wouldn't accept if given to me for free (unless I was allowed to chuck them on ebay right afterwards). Different people like different stuff, and cool is relative.

"Rule of Cool" has worked well for decades, and now with the internet where you can get instant feedback multiple times during your modeling process it works even better. You just have to be willing to accept valid criticism and admit defeat when you are attempting to shoehorn a concept into something that totally doesn't work. The problem with "rule of Cool" is people who make garbage and are cheap get all huffy and pissed off when someone calls a spade a spade and does not like their model. Those people who make an effort always seem to come out on top. "Rule of Cool" is not about you liking the personal aesthetic, it is the model a suitable stand-in for miniature play or is it just a coke-can proxy. When you see people with bad counts-as or proxies, they often fail rule of cool as there is no legitimate reason why that Jetbike should be a TWC or that Ogryn should be a dreadnought.

I have still yet to see pictures of this foam Doomcrecent. I suspect it is little more than a semicircle on a toothpick which is why we haven't seen it.

Here is a really really good Foam Rhino which passes rule of Cool with flying colors. If the person wanted to field 8 of these, he probably could put int he effort to build more and not break the bank. All that is required is effort which seems to be a dirty word for some people.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/431074.page

nkelsch wrote: When you see people with bad counts-as or proxies, they often fail rule of cool as there is no legitimate reason why that Jetbike should be a TWC or that Ogryn should be a dreadnought.

Is the facilitation of a game where both players get to use the armylist they'd like to somehow not a legitimate reason?

I try to keep my aesthetic preferences zeroed in on my own models, and not other peoples'. Perhaps I'd look at your Lootas and think "hmm, those are just a bunch of AoBR Boyz with polystyrene barrel extensions, pretty lame conversions..." but under no circumstance would that prevent me from enjoying a game against them. I view models as playing pieces for a gaming system, and any suitable replacement marker will serve just fine. For me the aesthetic qualities of the models are distinct from the gameplay... it's kind of hard to reconcile the two spheres when your pro-painted general can get killed and removed on the first turn, or your impressive monster needs to be laid on its side because it can't stand on the incline of a hill without toppling over.

Obviously everyone has a different limit when it comes to their expectations, somewhere along the continuum of a cardboard cutout army to an army of painstaking individual conversions, but I find that people who would rather not play a game than play a game against a proxied model or some other kind of stand-in are a special brand of dicks. Life's too short to be so picky.

nkelsch wrote:

"Rule of Cool" has worked well for decades, and now with the internet where you can get instant feedback multiple times during your modeling process it works even better. You just have to be willing to accept valid criticism and admit defeat when you are attempting to shoehorn a concept into something that totally doesn't work. The problem with "rule of Cool" is people who make garbage and are cheap get all huffy and pissed off when someone calls a spade a spade and does not like their model. Those people who make an effort always seem to come out on top. "Rule of Cool" is not about you liking the personal aesthetic, it is the model a suitable stand-in for miniature play or is it just a coke-can proxy. When you see people with bad counts-as or proxies, they often fail rule of cool as there is no legitimate reason why that Jetbike should be a TWC or that Ogryn should be a dreadnought.

I have still yet to see pictures of this foam Doomcrecent. I suspect it is little more than a semicircle on a toothpick which is why we haven't seen it.

Here is a really really good Foam Rhino which passes rule of Cool with flying colors. If the person wanted to field 8 of these, he probably could put int he effort to build more and not break the bank. All that is required is effort which seems to be a dirty word for some people.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/431074.page

As long as their have been miniature type of games there will always be people who will scratch build and or proxies.

nkelsch here was the first that I have seen to quantify what "The Rule of Cool" that is acceptable for me to use when I run my tournaments or when I help others scratch build models and terrain.

I my self as an artist thinks it cool to scratch build things. The thing that bugs me is in a tourney somebody might be modeling for an advantage like i saw a foot and a half land raider one time. I think its more on gw for not making the models at the same time the rules come out


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what if I play MTG and said this 8 of clubs is a black lotus

Adam LongWalker wrote:

As long as their have been miniature type of games there will always be people who will scratch build and or proxies.

nkelsch here was the first that I have seen to quantify what "The Rule of Cool" that is acceptable for me to use when I run my tournaments or when I help others scratch build models and terrain.

Sometimes scratchbuilds are poor and negatively impact the game and should not be allowed in competitive play.

Sometimes Proxies are confusing and negatively impact the game and should not be allowed in competitive play.

"Rule of Cool" is what is applied when people are attempting to use other models to represent something else, like a scratch-built or proxy but they want an exception to a tourneys rules. People seem to constantly forget the house sets the rules, and demanding exceptions to tourney rules is rude. And TOs know that people come hundreds of miles and pay hundreds of dollars in travel and lodging to attend events and become highly put out when someone shows up with unsuitable stand-ins which is why they make and enforce appearance rules to a standard they wish to support and 'rule of cool' determines which proxies and stand-ins will or will not be allowed.

Universal acceptance of all levels of scratch build and any and all proxies should never be accepted and that standard will continue to be a severe minority of the events out there.

You can run your tourneys however you want. If you are allowing Proxies, I won't attend as proxies make competitive play unfair as the burden of many people's proxies are unreasonable to force upon opponents. If you don't require minimum appearance and allow coke-cans or crude scratchbuilds, I will look to invest my money spent on tourneys and travel on a better quality event which there are no shortage of. You can do whatever you want, just like TO who require different standards can too.

I still haven't seen a picture of these scratchbuild doomcresents. I suspect if we saw them there would an overwhelming sentiment of: "Cool for casual play, no place in a tourney."

China is a little different. Our tournaments take about a month and are pretty much a win or drop out scenario. This is fine games but are scheduled on certain times and dates which changes the feel from a 2 day swiss tournament where you will play 5-6 games regardless if you win or lose. Painting isn't a requirement and there is a proxy % limit.

This is really where the problem is, in 40k it is nice to see a beautiful game and going to large tournaments you see many wonderful armies that inspire you in your own hobby ideas. I once saw an Eldar exodite army with dragon fire prisms in Nottingham and ever since I have been a fan.

However, im a lazy painter so without a 3 colour min I just get the models assembled to play. My bad. I know it doesn't look good, its WYSIWYG but not pretty.

Lukas is my buddy and I have had the pleasure of playing the scythe spam list quite a few times, I know the footprint of the scythe spam when using Vendetta's and SR's is huge and (apart from CC barges) they are the only thing you see. I'm looking forward to seeing it because I think it will look quite comical for 40k. Kind of like when a friends kid sits on the table and you make Titan jokes and create special rules.

I think you should post one of those pics Lukas, its simple now but its a good starting base. I think the feedback that you get from this community on how to improve them might be really useful to get them to a reasonable standard.

The flying bases he has created for them look pretty good.

j_p_chess wrote:Also what if I play MTG and said this 8 of clubs is a black lotus

M:TG tournaments have rules essentially disallowing that.
40k tournaments typically don't.

Same reason why a scratchbuilt Rhino (pending rule of cool) can be used, but a hand drawn Black Lotus can't.

side note: back when M:TG first came out, before spending tons of money on new decks we wanted to try out, my buddies and I would take a land card, write what it was pretending to be on it, and use it. zomg proxies in M:TG.

Heh, I can imagine it.

"Looks, here's this card which is released and is really cool but you can't use it yet cause we don't have a card but it's coming soon".

Good use of a land, or pancake on a land.

rigeld2 wrote:side note: back when M:TG first came out, before spending tons of money on new decks we wanted to try out, my buddies and I would take a land card, write what it was pretending to be on it, and use it. zomg proxies in M:TG.

My friends and I would proxy up all of the big competitive decks for playtesting ahead of tournaments. I still have a box full of Plains somewhere with things like "Yawgmoth's Bargain" and "Rishadan Port" written on them.

nkelsch Wrote:

Universal acceptance of all levels of scratch build and any and all proxies should never be accepted and that standard will continue to be a severe minority of the events out there.

True but that not my concern on what the other TO's are running. They run what they want to run but I believe that the majority of TO's are tied to their various constraints of their region and the sphere of influence of their customer base in that region.

Mine and mine alone is to make sure that the tournaments that I do run are enjoyable to the majority of people participating (can't please them all of course). I am fortunate that there are enough people( in my region who know me) are encouraged to try to scratch build pieces, either completely or the 50% GW parts - 50% other. I am also fortunate that I have deep pockets concerning resources to run a tournament or several in a year (if I am asked of course). I do not have to make money in any tournament as they are free to the public and generally some free drinks and snacks are included. Prize support is always good and generally I write off any loses as an expense, like GW does.

The financial freedom that I have allows me to promote the creativity of the hobby in a tournament like fashion, and if a person who scratch builds quality things, be it out of foamcore and/or other items, then they should be allowed to play in a tournament that I do run and be additionally rewarded for their works under the title of Best Conversions.

And if I am one of the severe minorities of TO's that do believe in having fun overall by being creative and promoting others to be creative with their hobby, then I'm cool with that.

It is really nice not to have any sort of financial, political, or corporate binds that could really screw up any sort of convention/tournament setting. I have the greatest respect to those that do run the larger tournaments (such as the Nova Open) because I have first hand experience on the logistical nightmares of something that size (convention setting of course). They have to make a profit on it. I don't.

I run tournaments because I like running them and I encourage those that do participate to be creative and most of all to have fun in them.

Why do i have a feeling OP made this thread so he can later wow us with a scratch built Gold Demon winning model....

LunaHound wrote:Why do i have a feeling OP made this thread so he can later wow us with a scratch built Gold Demon winning model....

Well, Lukus is the one with the Proxies, so he would be the one wowing us!

Lol. This is my very first scratchbuild and I can assure you it won't be pretty. Functional, but most definitely not pretty. These are designed as stand-ins until the actual model comes out. I could try to continually work on them even after the real thing comes out though that does mostly depend on the wife (she's already really moaning about how much space this much foam takes up, as well as all the tools and stuff I have lying about). Perhaps keeping 1 or 2 and the blueprints would be acceptable? Will get pics up of the finished alpha version. Has to be this week or it's Vendettas and Stromravens for proxies. Boo!

Lukus83 wrote:Lol. This is my very first scratchbuild and I can assure you it won't be pretty.

Asian power levels are extremely high, even your first will be

Except I'm English...I'm renowned for my great (or dark) sense of humour. Which is just as well with the Scythes I'm building. Bound to get you all to laugh.

Though maybe I've lived here long enough to soak up some of that Asian talent...

Lukus83 wrote:Except I'm English...I'm renowned for my great (or dark) sense of humour. Which is just as well with the Scythes I'm building. Bound to get you all to laugh.

Though maybe I've lived here long enough to soak up some of that Asian talent...

Hehe. Ah, im loving this.

Btw, I have a bunch of misc IG vehicle pieces if you want to add jam to the pancakes. Sun will too.

Now if only you could get that Chinese wife to make these while at home you get that Asian talent bonus. Give your kid 10 years and you might also get the benefit. 5 years and you can teach him/her how to make pancakes.