Why are grown men still launching tabletop war ? Big Issue article on page 3

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**Rayvon**

I didnt find it condescending at all, i guess the manner in which it was wrote went above alot of peoples heads.

**MeanGreenStompa**

"It’s annoying and false that we’re always painted up like clownish, unpalatable c**ts – except, of course, the many among our diverse and multinational breed who are indeed already clownish, unpalatable c**ts."
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden on the media portrayal of wargamers.

And I thought the article was fair handed and beige. Just a massive shame the figures shown in the pictures were fairly below par paint-wise. I also thought it was interesting that GW shied away from the interview and that they also researched enough to realise there is an ongoing issue re the price and presented 'the other side' of that 'argument'. It was a filler article, but not a bad one.

I'm sure trolling attacks via the article comments will be going on from bored chavs who've discovered how the internet works. I'm also sure that those among our community with no mastery of humor will be railing against them and providing them with more ammunition/amusement...

It's the circle of life, bishes.

**mattyrm**

Hah! Thanks for the link, amusing article.

**reds8n**

http://www.bigissue.com/features/columnists/764/bit-fantasy-never-did-anybody-any-harm

Samira Ahmed considers the therapeutic benefits presented by the fantasy worlds of Harry Potter and Warhammer
Every generation has its teen moral panic exploitation movie. In the 1930s it was Reefer Madness. In the ’50s it was Beat Girl (the evils of Soho coffee bars and bongos). For my generation it was 1982’s Mazes and Monsters, in which a very young Tom Hanks goes mad and (spoiler alert) DIES after being sucked into the evil world of fantasy role-playing games at university. The film, falsely claiming to be based on a true story, was unconvincing even at the time. But it captured the adult world’s distrust of adolescent escape fantasies.

In modern Britain it has been easy to sneer at more recent cases of American school districts banning the supposedly satanic Harry Potter. Immersion in JK Rowling’s retro wizard-school world is big business, despite its frustratingly lazy inconsistencies (I’ve lost count of the number of times I have heard earnest 20-year-olds explaining away the holes in her plotting and rules of magic). For those unable to get to Universal Studios’ Harry Potter World in Florida, Warner Brothers is starting tours of the HP sets at Leavesden Studios in Hertfordshire from April.

But that mass-market example aside, a purer form of a fantasy universe is accessible on almost every major city high street. Games Workshop is a quiet British success story. It makes models in a factory in Nottingham for a fantasy table-top gaming universe called Warhammer 40,000 (set in the 41st millennium), as well as Warhammer – an older, more traditional elves and dwarf version. And it sells them for lots of money. Half-year profits to the end of November were up 40 per cent to £9.5m and turnover rose by five per cent to £62.7m. Seventy per cent of sales are to customers abroad, mainly in North America, Japan, Germany, France and Spain.

Its owners don’t advertise. They don’t do media interviews. Hobbyists come to play weekend tournaments in a massive gaming hall. Its low-techness is its charm. The passion is in the detail: beautiful artwork and detailed imagined worlds. Parents paying for their children’s hobby do gasp at some of the hefty prices for the models and accessories, but the shop staff can bring cripplingly shy young teenagers out of their shell with the enthus-iasm of a shared world.

The escape it provides is not new. In Billy Liar (pictured) the eponymous hero lives in a fantasy world of epic scale. In the film he and Julie Christie’s character dream of building a secret model version of it in their attic. Seeing the film again recently and watching my son and his friends playing table-top games, it struck me that it is the sense of control and enriched imagining that appeals first to adolescents.

If you’re lucky you get to grow up and make a living out of that imagination. Researching Warhammer 40K I was struck by the number of 20, 30 and 40-somethings for whom table-top fantasy gaming was a crucial rite of passage on the path to a career in the creative industries – journalism, animation, film-making or graphic novels. Witness, for instance, X-Men comics writer Kieron Gillen, or the dating and sex columnist, Andy Jones (who, incidentally, shatters the most common slur hurled at gaming geeks).

I can't help thinking the Bronte sisters would have been great Warhammer enthusiasts. As children, in the rigidly controlled confines of the Haworth parsonage, they created the fantasy worlds of Angria and Gondal, about which they wrote detailed stories. They imagined characters and adventures for a set of toy soldiers given to their brother, Branwell. I like to imagine Anne playing the Sisters of Battle (zealot warrior nuns with heavy weaponry).

At a time when young people are more than ever under pressure – whether for qualifications whose value is constantly tinkered with by politicians and profit-making exam boards, or for finding jobs and status in a time of shockingly high youth unemployment – the temporary escape from a bleak reality seems more valuable than ever.

Last year I watched the lame end of the Harry Potter saga in open-mouthed horror. Harry, Hermione and their chums have lost countless friends and loved ones in their battle against evil. But unlike the epic world of Warhammer 40K, where planets and dynasties are at stake, the final proof of Harry’s ‘triumph’ is turning up at platform nine and three-quarters a middle-aged, middle-class home owner with a job who is able to afford to have kids of his own. Now that really is a fantasy.

**Electro**

Do the hobby a favour. Go on there and report a few of the realy offensive comments (about smelly nerds, gamers being loosers etc etc.). I have reported 5 and every single one has been removed. I'm not wanting to censor these people, but they clearly know nothing and some kids are going to get home tonight, be very excitted that the BBC is covering there hobby and be very upset thinking that the world views them this way. Especaly the ones who have sufferd from bullying because of their hobby.

**Ratius**

but the shop staff can bring cripplingly shy young teenagers out of their shell with the enthus-iasm of a shared world.

What a beautiful line.
Im not sure its true in all cases but the sentiment behind it is terrific.
Kudos.

**mattyrm**

I like how the UK still makes up for 30% of all sales.

Our nation is still king of the nerd, and I think that is a good thing rather than a bad. I prefer the company of table top gamers to football hooligans anyway.

**ceorron**

Actually I think Neocron is a good name. Really good, literally meaning new time. Great misspelling BBC I expected no less.

**MeanGreenStompa**

mattyrm wrote: I like how the UK still makes up for 30% of all sales.

Our nation is still king of the nerd,

Indeed, Blighty has always been mighty powerful with Boffins.

I bet at least one of the above has wargamed... (perhaps Brian May from Queen has taught his chum Sir Patrick... He does look like an inquisitor).

**AustonT**

I love that there's a picture with the caption "women and girls do play" and no women, or girls in the picture.

**mattyrm**

AustonT wrote:I love that there's a picture with the caption "women and girls do play" and no women, or girls in the picture.

I have only met one girl in a GW, and she had teeth like a witch doctors necklace. Maybe they didnt picture any because they look like men?

And I'm only kidding before the militant women on dakka start busting my balls.

Well, about the fact that all female wargamers are ugly, im sure this isnt the case.

I was being honest about the teeth though.

**blood reaper**

God.....

Honestly, the media makes anyone who plays war-games look like non-sociable, timid and weak and too afraid to do anything else, playing these games does require social interaction. Its a game where you do play face to face with others and can play a fun game instead of screaming down a microphone "GTFO NOOBZ!" or "Your mom! LOLOLOLOL".

**MeanGreenStompa**

My missus plays and she's beautiful. I also knew four attractive women who played in Bristol.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

blood reaper wrote:God.....

Honestly, the media makes anyone who plays war-games look like non-sociable, timid and weak and too afraid to do anything else,

Just consider matty, he's a quiet little wallflower.

**Sonophos**

olympia wrote:I'm sure everyone here knows what condescending means.

Perhaps you should define it for the dakkanaughts that are harder of thinking.

**Velour_Fog**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Just consider matty, he's a quiet little wallflower.

... that could kill you in .1 of a second.

**ArbeitsSchu**

Its a mainstream media article about a niche interest that isn't screaming THIS MAKES YOU RAPE AND KILL. Despite all the killing and raping inherent in the background. I'd say on the whole its a positive.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Skarwael wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Just consider matty, he's a quiet little wallflower.

... that could kill you in .1 of a second.

He's a squaddie, not Jack Bauer...

**Joey**

The ironic thing about everyone complaining about how condescending the article was is that they sound like a 14 year old girl trying to sound like a grown-up. I didn't find the article condescending at all.

**Grimtuff**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
mattyrm wrote: I like how the UK still makes up for 30% of all sales.

Our nation is still king of the nerd,

Indeed, Blighty has always been mighty powerful with Boffins.

I bet at least one of the above has wargamed... (perhaps Brian May from Queen has taught his chum Sir Patrick... He does look like an inquisitor).

**mattyrm**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Skarwael wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Just consider matty, he's a quiet little wallflower.

... that could kill you in .1 of a second.

He's a squaddie, not Jack Bauer...

Hey I'm not a squaddie... Comparing Royal Marine Commandos to Squaddies is like comparing Pigeons to Peregrine Falcons!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:The ironic thing about everyone complaining about how condescending the article was is that they sound like a 14 year old girl trying to sound like a grown-up. I didn't find the article condescending at all.

That is true, I didn't find it even remotely offensive. It was an amusing article, and neither of the blokes in the video had neck beards!

**Medium of Death**

I love the 'some gamers feel exploited' bit.

GW - Merciless tyrants that force you to play their game and buy their product.

If only I hadn't agreed to that soul pact!

**AustonT**

mattyrm wrote:
AustonT wrote:I love that there's a picture with the caption "women and girls do play" and no women, or girls in the picture.

I have only met one girl in a GW, and she had teeth like a witch doctors necklace. Maybe they didnt picture any because they look like men?

And I'm only kidding before the militant women on dakka start busting my balls.

Well, about the fact that all female wargamers are ugly, im sure this isnt the case.

I was being honest about the teeth though.

I've seen maybe a handful of women playing 40k, of them maybe one of them was attractive enough to feth...once, and never call.

mattyrm wrote:
That is true, I didn't find it even remotely offensive. It was an amusing article, and neither of the blokes in the video had neck beards!

Neckbeards are underrated.

**Joey**

AustonT wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
AustonT wrote:I love that there's a picture with the caption "women and girls do play" and no women, or girls in the picture.

I have only met one girl in a GW, and she had teeth like a witch doctors necklace. Maybe they didnt picture any because they look like men?

And I'm only kidding before the militant women on dakka start busting my balls.

Well, about the fact that all female wargamers are ugly, im sure this isnt the case.

I was being honest about the teeth though.

I've seen maybe a handful of women playing 40k, of them maybe one of them was attractive enough to feth...once, and never call.

Girls who wargame aren't really less attractive than any other girls. They dress less flashily, so men take less notice, but I wouldn't say on average they were any less attractive.

**swampyturtle**

Having read the article i have to say, its decent enough that i thought about posting it on facebook for about .01 of a sec before i decided i dont need everyone in the world on my "friends" list knowing i game. Im not ashemed of my hobby and those who know me know that it doesnt consume my life. I just have to remember not everyone is accepting of it.

anyway, I think the video really showed that , Yes wargamers can be just average men and woman whom like to game. I can say for a fact that wargaming brought me out of my shell in high school and helped me to gain social skills. Ive seen it at work with another of my buddies too.

Overall its a 8.5 / 10 article but i wouldnt give it anymore than that.

**Grimtuff**

Joey wrote:
AustonT wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
AustonT wrote:I love that there's a picture with the caption "women and girls do play" and no women, or girls in the picture.

I have only met one girl in a GW, and she had teeth like a witch doctors necklace. Maybe they didnt picture any because they look like men?

And I'm only kidding before the militant women on dakka start busting my balls.

Well, about the fact that all female wargamers are ugly, im sure this isnt the case.

I was being honest about the teeth though.

I've seen maybe a handful of women playing 40k, of them maybe one of them was attractive enough to feth...once, and never call.

Girls who wargame aren't really less attractive than any other girls. They dress less flashily, so men take less notice, but I wouldn't say on average they were any less attractive.

A friend of mine refers to them as Geegees. In both being an acronym for gamer girls and an observation of (at least with the ones he's met) their horselike appearance.

**MightyGodzilla**

Most of the comments I looked at under the article were fairly positive and I think that's the most important part. 677 replies when I was looking, that's a lot, considering the obscurity of the subject - and there were alot of comments by obvious passerbys (read not a "hobby" fanatic) that were positive as well. I was inclined to chime in a little myself, but I'm too lazy to set up a BBC ID. It's really too bad she didn't do any sort of in depth research before sending the article to print. The awesome painting aspect of the hobby is one that's kept me here all these years.

BTW - Don't feminists hate wargamers? Think of us (blanketly) as little boys with little toys? I don't think that the article was that snide in tone. Maybe just people being a little oversensitive to an article title that was obviously meant to draw you in. She even tried to get GW execs to comment on price gouging....LOVE IT. Here's a pic of the author. ^_^

Spoiler:

**kronk**

It seems that the title was changed to "Why do adults..."

**MeanGreenStompa**

Thought the name was familiar, she used to present Channel 4 news.

So, according to the other article she wrote, for Big Issue, as posted here by Reds8n, she views wargaming positively. So, an intelligent, attractive and successful woman thinks this is a good hobby. Her article in no way attacked what we do.

**kronk**

I thought it was in interesting read. Not that enlightening. More of a fluff piece.

**Agamemnon2**

AustonT wrote:
I've seen maybe a handful of women playing 40k, of them maybe one of them was attractive enough to feth...once, and never call.

Really. Could we have less of this kind of figurative dick-waving. Some of us actually balk at being associated with sophomoric bullcrap masquerading as "humor". It's sexist, lowbrow and brings wargaming as a hobby into disrepute.