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basically anything that's atleast strength 8 and lets you roll extra dice, reroll failed dice, adds to rolls on the damage table, ignores cover saves or forces your opponent to reroll them, and can be taken in large enough quantities to make up for inevitable misses. As the GK codex has shown us, str. 7 is fine too if you get a crazy number of attacks.

I know bolt of tzeentch fits some of those descriptions, but you can't take enough copies of it in that codex to make it work. You'd need something like 15+ copies of it in your army to real hammer transports the way you have to to make a strong army these days. They're pushing it at 5 copies. It just isn't enough. Good anti tank is something like guard, that lets you take an absurd number of melta guns and lascannons, or space wolves, which does the same thing for krak missiles, or grey knights which does that with psycannons. It's not just the gun - it's the opportunities presented by the codex as a whole.

I run an all Slaanesh Daemon army, and find that the near-universal 'Rending' tends to make for good AT.

I even wrote an article/tactica on it here...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Running_an_all-Slaanesh_Daemon_army

GreatGunz wrote:basically anything that's atleast strength 8 and lets you roll extra dice, reroll failed dice, adds to rolls on the damage table, ignores cover saves or forces your opponent to reroll them, and can be taken in large enough quantities to make up for inevitable misses. As the GK codex has shown us, str. 7 is fine too if you get a crazy number of attacks.

I know bolt of tzeentch fits some of those descriptions, but you can't take enough copies of it in that codex to make it work. You'd need something like 15+ copies of it in your army to real hammer transports the way you have to to make a strong army these days. They're pushing it at 5 copies. It just isn't enough. Good anti tank is something like guard, that lets you take an absurd number of melta guns and lascannons, or space wolves, which does the same thing for krak missiles, or grey knights which does that with psycannons. It's not just the gun - it's the opportunities presented by the codex as a whole.

I get it, it's not IG/GK/longfangs/mech so you don't like the bolt. Still doesn't answer my question though. I asked what you thought was good anti-tank in codex daemons then if you don't like bolt? Like what unit would you use then if you were making a daemon list for anti-tank?

For only 10 points, a Horror unit may buy Bolt of Tzeentch, one of the best Anti Tank weapons in the game. Almost every Tzeentch unit can purchase such powers, and almost all Khorne units can have rending, Slannesh units can glance almost all vehicles, in all respects the Daemon army does have the ability to deal with tanks and armored craft. Don't forget Screamers, they can reduce most tanks to molten slag with ease.

sudojoe wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:basically anything that's atleast strength 8 and lets you roll extra dice, reroll failed dice, adds to rolls on the damage table, ignores cover saves or forces your opponent to reroll them, and can be taken in large enough quantities to make up for inevitable misses. As the GK codex has shown us, str. 7 is fine too if you get a crazy number of attacks.

I know bolt of tzeentch fits some of those descriptions, but you can't take enough copies of it in that codex to make it work. You'd need something like 15+ copies of it in your army to real hammer transports the way you have to to make a strong army these days. They're pushing it at 5 copies. It just isn't enough. Good anti tank is something like guard, that lets you take an absurd number of melta guns and lascannons, or space wolves, which does the same thing for krak missiles, or grey knights which does that with psycannons. It's not just the gun - it's the opportunities presented by the codex as a whole.

I get it, it's not IG/GK/longfangs/mech so you don't like the bolt. Still doesn't answer my question though. I asked what you thought was good anti-tank in codex daemons then if you don't like bolt? Like what unit would you use then if you were making a daemon list for anti-tank?

I would use bolt of tzeentch and fiends, like people have been saying. Those are the least bad options. There are no good options. This was covered earlier on in the conversation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blood reaper wrote:For only 10 points, a Horror unit may buy Bolt of Tzeentch, one of the best Anti Tank weapons in the game. Almost every Tzeentch unit can purchase such powers, and almost all Khorne units can have rending, Slannesh units can glance almost all vehicles, in all respects the Daemon army does have the ability to deal with tanks and armored craft. Don't forget Screamers, they can reduce most tanks to molten slag with ease.

ArbitorIan wrote:I run an all Slaanesh Daemon army, and find that the near-universal 'Rending' tends to make for good AT.

I even wrote an article/tactica on it here...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Running_an_all-Slaanesh_Daemon_army

Nice, been looking for something like this. I just suck at navigating the article section.

Screamers, easily the most targetted and worthless outside of tank hunting, not to mention 1 attack at 4+ or 6+.. Horrors have BS3, very inaccurate,

ArbitorIan wrote:I run an all Slaanesh Daemon army, and find that the near-universal 'Rending' tends to make for good AT.

I even wrote an article/tactica on it here...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Running_an_all-Slaanesh_Daemon_army

Related to this, bloodletters don't have armor, they have the same 5++ as daemonettes, they just have +1T

This is the rankings used in australia I believe

http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=1

GreatGunz wrote:basically anything that's atleast strength 8 and lets you roll extra dice, reroll failed dice, adds to rolls on the damage table, ignores cover saves or forces your opponent to reroll them, and can be taken in large enough quantities to make up for inevitable misses. As the GK codex has shown us, str. 7 is fine too if you get a crazy number of attacks.

Bloodthirster is S8, rolls extra dice, rolls enough dice to make up for the misses, and ignores cover. Daemon Princes roll extra dice and ignore cover (and can take Bolt). Fiends roll a shedload of dice (enough to make up for the inevitable misses), get Rending extra dice, and ignore cover. Bolt adds to rolls on the damage table. Breath of Chaos ignores cover and doesn't roll to hit.

GreatGunz wrote: It's not just the gun - it's the opportunities presented by the codex as a whole.

It's not just guns. The daemons codex has a bit of a handicap in antitank. But if you build to cover that weakness, they are quite competitive.

Aw I thought this thread was going to be about how bipedal ungulates stand up.

GreatGunz wrote:Basically what you're arguing is that demons don't have to kill their opponents to win. Which is silly.

Look I said this in the beginning and at least one other time since, the issue is that demons are an assaulting army and they can't get into assaults if they can't kill enemy transports, unless the opponent voluntarily gets out. Which they won't unless they're also an assaulting army. If they sit inside their transports and shoot out with, say, plasmaguns inside a chimera, or flamers inside a rhino, the demon player has a problem. Besides that he has to hold objectives, so depriving the opponent of their mobility is important for that reason too.

I don't know why you think it's a good strategy to throw 36 hits at an enemy tank, and hope that one rends. 1/36 is good odds to you? Nevermind rolling on the damage table? And even then you haven't killed any of the guys inside? Your argument is just silly. Please reconsider.

Once again, I dont need to get into assaults if I can assault the transport and destroy the unit within in the process. Vehicle destroyed result on a surrounded vehicle means no emergency disembarkation. Vehicle destroyed, unit destroyed. Vehicle explodes result on most surrounded vehicles means the vehicle is gone and so is the unit inside because they can't be within 1" of my models. Vehicle destroyed, unit destroyed. You're being obtuse in assuming the only way I can destroy your unit is if you voluntarily disembark, there are plenty of other ways. If anything, I'd rather destroy your transports in assault for that reason, its far more time and model efficient for me than to actually try to battle the unit itself. Nothing like popping a Rhino in close combat and then your opponent discovers that the unit of Khorne Berzerkers lead by Kharn the Betrayer can't be placed because there is nowhere to go that isn't within 1" of me. Besides that, you can't hold objectives if you're moving 12" every turn, because... you know, you have to move. Plus, you can't fire out of a transport if you're moving 12" a turn (unless you're a fast vehicle), so again, what am I worried about? Oh, you're going to move only 6" a turn you say? Well, my probability just increased to 1/12... and that is again, discounting the fact that I will no doubt score a bevy of glances as well, and also discounting the fact that I have a unit of daemonettes or something in there too to finish off surrounding your vehicle, who are also putting out a buttload of rending attacks.

sumi808 wrote:This is the rankings used in australia I believe

http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=1

wow very interesting read. I didn't know they had these kind of things. Really funny to see this stat:

ETC record for Chaos Daemons against other armies

The following table displays how this army scored against each army used at the European Team Championship.

•The "Total Points" is the total number of battle points the army scored across all its games
•The "Total Games" is the number of games this army was used at the championship
•The "Average" is simply the average points per game. So an average over 10 means this army on average beats the army in question.

Average Game Score: 9.8

Army Total Points Total Games Average Points
Imperial Guard 65 5 13
Blood Angels 42 4 10.5
Space Wolves 39 4 9.75
Space Marines 34 3 11.33
Orks 30 2 15
Tyranids 19 3 6.33
Black Templars 18 2 9
Chaos Space Marines 15 2 7.5
Grey Knights 14 1 14
Dark Eldar 13 1 13
Eldar 5 3 1.67


(first number is total points, 2nd number is games, 3rd number is the average based on 10's.)

very strange that vs the army with the most metal boxes, the daemons have the best kill ratio. Got stomped by the space elfs though it appears.

Mannahnin wrote:

GreatGunz wrote: It's not just the gun - it's the opportunities presented by the codex as a whole.

It's not just guns. The daemons codex has a bit of a handicap in antitank. But if you build to cover that weakness, they are quite competitive.

Don't disagree with that. Every codex has strengths and weaknesses. Can demons bust tanks? Sure. Are they good at it? Not particularly. When you look at what demons get vs. what IG or SW get, it's obvious which codex is better equipped to deal with vehicles. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, cool. Thought you were saying they had no good ways to deal with tanks at all. There's obviously a middle ground between "best in the game for" and "totally lacking in" antitank.

ETC record for Space Wolves against other armies

The following table displays how this army scored against each army used at the European Team Championship.

•The "Total Points" is the total number of battle points the army scored across all its games
•The "Total Games" is the number of games this army was used at the championship
•The "Average" is simply the average points per game. So an average over 10 means this army on average beats the army in question.

Average Game Score: 10.09

Army Total Points Total Games Average Points
Imperial Guard 290 23 12.61
Eldar 242 23 10.52
Chaos Space Marines 156 16 9.75
Grey Knights 138 15 9.2
Blood Angels 120 13 9.23
Dark Eldar 94 6 15.67
Orks 89 13 6.85
Space Wolves 80 8 10
Tyranids 61 5 12.2
Black Templars 55 7 7.86
Chaos Daemons 41 4 10.25
Necrons 26 3 8.67
Space Marines 17 4 4.25
Dark Angels 13 1 13


According to this thing, space wolves only averaged some 12.6 points vs those pesky IG tanks or at least I'm assuming they are IG mech lists for the most part as that is the tourny favorites anyway. That's slightly less than the daemons vs IG lists at 13. Vs other lists that probably has decent amout of mech like GK/BA/dark eldar/, they did decently. Pulled ahead on popping paper airplaines for the Dark eldar at 15.67 points vs the daemons 13 average there. Fell behind on regular space marines which typically have some good mech lists at only 4.25 points vs daemons at 11.33.

IG lists are fun I find unless they're of the 6-9 vendetta kind.

Parking Lots are litterly a free win for us! Drop right in front of all his blast markers if you're feeling really agressive, watch as his lumbering tanks can't move far enough to really lessen the risk of scattering their blasts onto themselves!
Plus, I find that alot of parking lots are so bunched up, units like Fiends/Hounds/Seekers can multi-assault as least two if not three vehicles at once. Auto-hitting with S5 and/or rending attacks on rear armour is fun times.

I honestly fear infantry horde IG more than I do parking lots. A smart IG player will simply break-up most of their platoon squads and feed you single squads to try and stop you from multi-charging their lines.

One of the reasons I love my mono-Tzeentch list so much, it's got decent combat punch from the princes and 'changebringers', (unit count as fiends and is modeled as flamers riding screamers), and more dakka that you'd ever expect in a daemons army!

OMG, footguard is such a pain for me to play with my daemons, even playing a Tzeentch list they put down more bodies than I can remove in a 6 turn game.