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I've played a few games on Vassal with Daemons and I love them. It's a fun army to play; watching your opponent try to set up against a fully deep-striking is funny.

I find the best anti-tank weapon the codex has is a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might for the S8, provided that it makes it to where it needs to go.

And Fateweaver is amazing, at some point I started feeling bad about rolling 3+ inv saves with rerolls lol.

hehe. I dont see the need for unholy might on the bloodthirster... S7 with 2d6 for armour pen. that 1 point of strength isn't really necessary.

There is entirely too much Ld10 shooty things now a days >.< (glares at necrons)

The only problem Iv had with the DS deployment really, is when Im playing against someone thats played daemons a fair bit and they castle up in a corner then proceed to shoot me into little pieces.

This is probably because one of my favourite tactics for daemons is to divide and conquer, if you can smash the weaker side of the army deployed you can usually pull off a win easy.

Experiment 626 wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:2. They don't have a good way to bust enemy transports, which means that, even though they're good close combat fighters, they have a hard time getting into combat as long as their opponent refuses to get out of their tanks. The new forgeworld model helps but overall it's still a serious weakness for the army.

Bring Tzeentch Heralds & Princes and watch those av11/12 metal bawkes explode like fireworks! Small squads of 5 or 6 pinkies can also take 1 Bolt of Tzeentch upgrade and just sit in cover near an objective if you think you need more anti-tank.

Fiends, Seekers & Hounds will also munch down transports pretty damn fast due to throwing out rather rude numbers of either S5 attacks and/or rending attacks.

Av14 is the real pill for us, because our strongest ranged shooting is only S8/ap1, so you need to hit, roll a 6 to glance and then another 6 to wreck it. If you face off against a wall of av13/14, you will cry a bit and basically be forced to use your combat answers almost exclusively.

Yup. But a full squad Fiends will happily glance the crap out of a LR unless it moves over 6", and a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might has darn good odds even with one moving at Cruising Speed. This is one reason the BT is popular. He can also take a collar of khorne, so he's great against two common problems- AV14 and Grey Knights.

sudojoe wrote:There is entirely too much Ld10 shooty things now a days >.< (glares at necrons)

Using the Changelling, I was able to bring down a Necron Overlord, his Catacomb Command Barge, and several Scarab Swarms. I can't remember what power it was (something like rolling two D6 dice and adding up the results to form a ranged attack) but if your lucky, the dice will not ruin your plans and will cause Chaos. The Changelling is a wild card, but a massive bonus to your army for his cost.

Zambro wrote:Thanks for the opinions. So far, im getting the impression that you have to have a good build and a little (well, a fair bit ) experiance to get anywhere with daemons.

@ LunaHound. Why are daemons bad? In your opinion.

I dont think they are bad, I dont think I ever called them bad, just boring :'P

Why they are boring.... Chaos used to be one grand army, with almost limitless combination of units and wargears.
Ever since Daemons and Beastmen split up, they have become.... lackluster.
There arnt much varieties to choose from, and they all look static and boring. And from the table top view its like....
ooh that block of green nurgle guys, purple slannesh guys, red khorn guys with some blue tzeentch guys.

Of course the colors may vary but the lack of armor ( they are almost naked pretty much ) makes them boring to look at.

I think I prefer them not having armour and such.

I dont really like the new horrors for example because of all the birdy trinkets and such.

They don't stand up, they lie down.

Well unless they get onto the board in the right place. Unfortunately it always looks like Khorne has to be in their somewhere or Nurgle; the two chaos gods I dislike.

I dont think you have to have khorne or nurgle, Iv played mono-tzeentch with decent success.

Lack of CC ability can sometimes be bad but its not neccesarily always a problem.

Zambro wrote:hehe. I dont see the need for unholy might on the bloodthirster... S7 with 2d6 for armour pen. that 1 point of strength isn't really necessary.

Instant death on Space Marine models is pretty nice. Including things like Paladins.

well, in the case of a SM, MCs ignore armour saves completely. So 20 points to out right kill 1 SC (probably in a group of 10 marines) is pointless, seeing as they will allocate wound to the 10 before the SC.

Zambro wrote:well, in the case of a SM, MCs ignore armour saves completely. So 20 points to out right kill 1 SC (probably in a group of 10 marines) is pointless, seeing as they will allocate wound to the 10 before the SC.

Remember that if the SC is IC (like 90+% of them are), they're treated as separate unit in CC. So you can't allocate wounds he takes to the SM squad and vice versa. Bloodthirster must also decide how many attacks to use against IC and how many against the squad.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Zambro wrote:hehe. I dont see the need for unholy might on the bloodthirster... S7 with 2d6 for armour pen. that 1 point of strength isn't really necessary.

Instant death on Space Marine models is pretty nice. Including things like Paladins.

That and it's always nicer to penetrate a Landraider on a 7+ (21 chances out of 36) rather than an 8+ (15 chances out of 36).

GreatGunz wrote:Demons have three big problems.

1. They don't have transports, which, combined with their low saves, makes them vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons.

Because people take SOOO many of those these days. Besides that, you dont need transport vehicles when you can appear in the enemy deployment zone, you might lose the protection gained, but you're the most mobile army on the table.

2. They don't have a good way to bust enemy transports, which means that, even though they're good close combat fighters, they have a hard time getting into combat as long as their opponent refuses to get out of their tanks. The new forgeworld model helps but overall it's still a serious weakness for the army.

A unit of Fiends of Slaanesh goes for 180 points, has a 19"-24" threat range, and puts out 36 rending attacks on the charge. Thats your reliable transport popper right there. Support them with a unit of daemonettes to provide additional wrap around coverage of the transport and you could potentially destroy the unit inside along with the transport.

Unless they fire a vehicles weapons at it.

Vehicles are affected as though they were LD 10

Bolt of Tzeentch sorts out any transport short of a Land Raider, at which point we can fall back onto any MC, 'Thirsters being especially nasty, rending Fiends, Screamers who will munch any tank for only 53pts for 3 jetbike meltabombs , and if you get really desperate a large unit of Flamers can glance it to death with their templates...

Vehicle spam is simply boring & highly repetitive, and is only really nasty against us if your dice decide to flip you the bird for most of the game. (as mine often do )

Daemons are nice to see and finish well in tournaments from what I can see on ranking HQ

Its great to have a footslogger army in the 5E that is compeditive

The idea of fateweaver + bloodthurster then an army of 6 units of blood crushers going down wind is not one I would want to fight against

sumi808 wrote:Daemons are nice to see and finish well in tournaments from what I can see on ranking HQ

Its great to have a footslogger army in the 5E that is compeditive

The idea of fateweaver + bloodthurster then an army of 6 units of blood crushers going down wind is not one I would want to fight against

Kind of curious but which ranking thing do you perfer using?

I also would not want to be down wind of them but at least old blood is a lot nicer smelling than nurgle and friends
I heard tzeentch smells like anything from cheese to popcorn and icecream ... on fire...
Slanesh smells like .... well I'll leave it to your imagination

chaos0xomega wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Demons have three big problems.

1. They don't have transports, which, combined with their low saves, makes them vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons.

Because people take SOOO many of those these days. Besides that, you dont need transport vehicles when you can appear in the enemy deployment zone, you might lose the protection gained, but you're the most mobile army on the table.

You might be surprised at how many bolters you'll find in an average space marine army.

2. They don't have a good way to bust enemy transports, which means that, even though they're good close combat fighters, they have a hard time getting into combat as long as their opponent refuses to get out of their tanks. The new forgeworld model helps but overall it's still a serious weakness for the army.

A unit of Fiends of Slaanesh goes for 180 points, has a 19"-24" threat range, and puts out 36 rending attacks on the charge.

and needs 6s to hit.

Thats your reliable transport popper right there. Support them with a unit of daemonettes to provide additional wrap around coverage of the transport and you could potentially destroy the unit inside along with the transport.

You traded a 180 point unit of fiends and a 100+ point unit of daemonettes to kill one transport? You master strategist you.

and needs 6s to hit.

4's for the most part if you want that vehicle to do more than run around the field or everything you own has power of the machine spirit or sweep attacks.

Experiment 626 wrote:Bolt of Tzeentch sorts out any transport short of a Land Raider

Consider the Rhino in cover. 66% to hit, 50% to penetrate, 50% to get past cover, 50% to destroy. 0.3 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.375
Rounding up, you have a 4% chance to kill that transport with bolt of tzeentch. Although maybe one of the guys who shoots it has bs 5, in which case your odds will improve slightly. Anyway, no, bolt of tzeentch doesn't get the job done against a rhino. Let alone a land raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:

and needs 6s to hit.

4's for the most part if you want that vehicle to do more than run around the field or everything you own has power of the machine spirit or sweep attacks.

Its a transport. All I want it to do is get my guys to their destination. I'm either moving it 12 or I'm not moving it at all, as a general rule.
I specified transport right at the beginning.

Its a transport. All I want it to do is get my guys to their destination. I'm either moving it 12 or I'm not moving it at all, as a general rule.
I specified transport right at the beginning.

and why as a daemon would I need to stop you from getting there? I have no lines. You can get there and then you'll likely sit there unless you want to keep driving 12' away?

As daemons, you really can't hold too many positions at least not my list builds as our troops just don't do well on the defense. You maximize your killiness at the best spots vs the enemies's weakest spots. If you want to drive all the way to my C&C base, that's cool, I'll probably end up dropping something there eventually to contest it at the end. The bulk of my forces would not go after a transport as that will probably leave them out of range of the rest of your army which will likely gun me down if I'm so far out of position to get every transport.

Consider the Rhino in cover. 66% to hit, 50% to penetrate, 50% to get past cover, 50% to destroy. 0.3 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.375
Rounding up, you have a 4% chance to kill that transport with bolt of tzeentch. Although maybe one of the guys who shoots it has bs 5, in which case your odds will improve slightly. Anyway, no, bolt of tzeentch doesn't get the job done against a rhino. Let alone a land raider.

actually it's quite nice as it is str 8 and you will likely try to shoot it from rear armor so it's str 8 vs armor 10 if you are talking regular transports. unless you are running all storm ravens or LR, that's typical for transports. 3's to pen is quite good. 2's can glance and possibly stop you from moving/shooting at least temporarily. Most things in the game are around str 8-9 or 7's vs tanks. I'm curious what you consider to be reliable? A vindicare?

A single S8 shot is really not all that reliable against a transport. Ap1 certainly does help, though.

And I agree about the Fiends. Fiends will still pretty reliably kill an AV10-rear transport, even needing 6s to hit. And if the opponent isn't careful/gets too close, the Fiends may well surround it and kill the squad which can't disembark.

A Landraider can usually stay alive by moving over 6", but at some point it may want to shoot more than one weapon, or of not, it still may get caught by a Bloodthirster.

Daemons have to deepstrike which makes it harder to win with them.

Mannahnin wrote:A single S8 shot is really not all that reliable against a transport. Ap1 certainly does help, though.

And I agree about the Fiends. Fiends will still pretty reliably kill an AV10-rear transport, even needing 6s to hit. And if the opponent isn't careful/gets too close, the Fiends may well surround it and kill the squad which can't disembark.

A Landraider can usually stay alive by moving over 6", but at some point it may want to shoot more than one weapon, or of not, it still may get caught by a Bloodthirster.

oh snap, I totally forgot about the Ap1 >.< I've been using it like a missle launcher somehow in my head and totally messing up my games ahhhhh. Thanks for pointing it out. I got somethng out of this thread =)

sudojoe wrote:

Its a transport. All I want it to do is get my guys to their destination. I'm either moving it 12 or I'm not moving it at all, as a general rule.
I specified transport right at the beginning.

and why as a daemon would I need to stop you from getting there? I have no lines. You can get there and then you'll likely sit there unless you want to keep driving 12' away?

It's not so much about hindering their mobility as it is about getting into close combat. Assaults are basically all you have as a demon player, so if your opponent just hides in his transport and refuses to fight you, you end up looking kind of silly. And god help you if he has a flamer or two in his army. I've seen it. I've done it. I wouldn't lie to you. And anyway even demons have to play for objectives sometimes. 2/3 of the time, actually.

Consider the Rhino in cover. 66% to hit, 50% to penetrate, 50% to get past cover, 50% to destroy. 0.3 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.375
Rounding up, you have a 4% chance to kill that transport with bolt of tzeentch. Although maybe one of the guys who shoots it has bs 5, in which case your odds will improve slightly. Anyway, no, bolt of tzeentch doesn't get the job done against a rhino. Let alone a land raider.

actually it's quite nice as it is str 8 and you will likely try to shoot it from rear armor so it's str 8 vs armor 10 if you are talking regular transports. unless you are running all storm ravens or LR, that's typical for transports. 3's to pen is quite good. 2's can glance and possibly stop you from moving/shooting at least temporarily. Most things in the game are around str 8-9 or 7's vs tanks. I'm curious what you consider to be reliable? A vindicare?

Vindicares are good. Ordnance is good. IG orders are good. Basically anything that lets you ignore cover, roll extra dice, ro reroll failed dice, or shoots a crazy number of times. Bolt of Tzeentch does none of those things.

Looking it over, I didn't do the math quite right. It should be
66% to hit 50% to penetrate 50% to get past cover 50% to destroy 0.66 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.825 or 9% rounding up.
I don't think you can assume that this is against rear armor but whatever I'll give that to you since it doesn't change things that much.
0.66 x 0.66 x 0.5 x 0.5 = .1089 or 11% rounding up.
compare to a meltagun
0.66 x 0.91 x 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.1515 or 16% rounding up.
In other words the meltagun is about 40% more effective than the bolt of tzeentch. And it's less expensive. And you get more of them in your army. And it can kill land raiders.
So no, I don't think bolt of tzeentch really stands up.

GreatGunz wrote:
A unit of Fiends of Slaanesh goes for 180 points, has a 19"-24" threat range, and puts out 36 rending attacks on the charge.

and needs 6s to hit.

Thats your reliable transport popper right there. Support them with a unit of daemonettes to provide additional wrap around coverage of the transport and you could potentially destroy the unit inside along with the transport.

You traded a 180 point unit of fiends and a 100+ point unit of daemonettes to kill one transport? You master strategist you.

Basically what you're arguing is that demons don't have to kill their opponents to win. Which is silly.

Look I said this in the beginning and at least one other time since, the issue is that demons are an assaulting army and they can't get into assaults if they can't kill enemy transports, unless the opponent voluntarily gets out. Which they won't unless they're also an assaulting army. If they sit inside their transports and shoot out with, say, plasmaguns inside a chimera, or flamers inside a rhino, the demon player has a problem. Besides that he has to hold objectives, so depriving the opponent of their mobility is important for that reason too.

I don't know why you think it's a good strategy to throw 36 hits at an enemy tank, and hope that one rends. 1/36 is good odds to you? Nevermind rolling on the damage table? And even then you haven't killed any of the guys inside? Your argument is just silly. Please reconsider.

Well Greatgunz, what would you consider to be effective anti-tank for daemons then?