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Hi Dakka, i need a little help...

So i've been playing SM for the past 6 months, and have been toying with the idea of starting Chaos Marines. Having always subconsciously picked the 'good guys', i fancied a change.
But i have recently been painting 2 LS, 2 Pred, 2 Rhino and a LRC. And cant for the life of me bring myself to want to paint another tank So i decided to take a look at daemons...

At first i was a little concerned with regards to their tank busting abilities. Yes, MCs get 2d6 for pen in h2h with a tank, but the turn the DS, they will have to shoot. Now, they dont have Meltaguns or Lascannons to lug around but are limited to certain other shooting attacks, some wont be strong enough to destroy av14 tanks before they blow the daemons off the board. That was my first concern.

Secondly, i'm a big fan of Khorne (i had laid out plans for plenty of 'zerkers in the CSM lists i drew up). But they can't assault out of DS. I know i want to include some Khorne units and maybe a Khorne HQ, but they are h2h units and, like i've outlined above, i'd get shot up real bad by enemies.

Also, i dont see many people shouting about Daemons. Are they good? Suck so bad they dont deserve a mention? A very unique taste which requires a certain type of player?

Anyway, enough rambling on, what do you think about Daemons generally? Have you played them? How did they do? Some general advise for a begginer Daemon player?

Thanks so much!
-Zambro

Oh, as soon as i put the list i came up with over on the Army List Section, i'll drop a link in this post so you can see how im approaching the daemon list.
Here is the list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/436537.page

Daemons are ok. Far from super-competitive, but not too bad.

There are a couple of builds that can even be called decent.


(unless you play againsst GK, in which case there's a fair chance that you'd have had more fun rubbing yourself vigourously with a cheesegrater.)


You don't have to shoot when you DS. You can run instead. You just can't assault.

If you want shooty Daemons Tzeentch is the best you have, though daemons are better at anti-personell than antitank at range. Bolt of Tzeentch is ok, but not stunning, and the Tongue attack from a soul grinder is a bit short ranged, but cool.

I play daemons, mainly as Mono-Tzeentch. My antitank consists of a flight of Screamers (meltabomb jaws ftw), soulgrinders and Bolts of Tzeentch. I manage, but a ton of AV 14 is a pain to shift.

Remember that all daemons come with invulnerable saves. This can make them a bit more durable than their stat's would seem to indicate. I've seen a large unit of bloodletters cross a battlefield under heavy fire and only lose 3 guys

Daemon Princes with wings are fast enough to close with an enemy in close combat, if they survive the deeply aggrevating deepstrike turn. Try deepstriking them behind LOS blocking terrain, then fly over it and whack away next turn.

Oh and don't take furies. They suck

Yeah, any army called Daemon Hunters is gonna be tough to play lol

On paper, i dont see the need for Wings. If your Deep Striking into the enemies face, why do you need wings? tThey are right there.

I forgot about run... that changes a few things.

Thanks anyway

Tough nothing

Daemon Hunters codex was a challenge.

GK (the new one) are just BEYOND.

There is one trick they can pull to deny you even deploying (autowin), but anyone pulling it is a WAAC TFG that you shouldn't play again anyway

Wings allow you to move like you have a jump pack. They are spendy as hell in the Daemons dex, but a 12'' move over terrain can be handy, and some of the more fun models start with them.

You know looking at the pros and cons of daemons in 40k I am gonna start a new daemon army as soon as i can lol :-) i had a khorne tzeentch army so i had a good mix of shooting stuff and close combat stuff :-) it was fun i unfotunately sold it all last year as i couldnt think where to go with it but now i do wanna do another army (CSM codex sucks and its taking forever for a new one to be released )

Ascalam wrote:Tough nothing

Daemon Hunters codex was a challenge.

GK (the new one) are just BEYOND.

There is one trick they can pull to deny you even deploying (autowin), but anyone pulling it is a WAAC TFG that you shouldn't play again anyway

Wings allow you to move like you have a jump pack. They are spendy as hell in the Daemons dex, but a 12'' move over terrain can be handy, and some of the more fun models start with them.

Oh boo hoo.. outside of spamming warp quake there is little different for MOST gk builds vs daemons as if they played bt. Daemonbane hardly works since most daemons are 1 wound and ld 10. Psykout yea can be rough but hardly any worse then playing the elves. So no the new are not as bad as the old when we could ignore invulns etc. lol Plus if daemons want they can get a 2++ vs gk with khorne daemons and blessing of the blood god. lol GK used to have build in shroud +bonus to str and all sorts of built in stuff. lol Ascalam is just a band wagoner trying to scare ya.

Daemons can hang with the best of 'em... Except those moronicly broken 'herp-durp' knights and their filthy codex.

A shooty Tzeentch list is rightly terrifying. S8/ap1 bolts on heralds who can get an ability similar to a Long Fangs pack leader's ability, and your princes with bolt can deal with mech lists and open up those metal bawkes. Av13/14 spam is harder, but you can still glance them to keep them supressed long enough to run up and hit them! (except the GK versions obviously)
Pinkies are filthy in large numbers. For fun I normally use a squad of 18 in 1250+ games and they'll make anything short of a wound-allocated pally deathstar cry with their 54 shots! Add the Changeling for more funtimes in every list.
Flamers are godly suicide troops, so easy to land just 3 of 'em rpretty much on top of your opponent's prized unit and then watch them explode into dust with their template attacks. As an added bonus they also still have the basic Warpfire attack, so even if you scatter poorly you can still fling some hurt.

Plaguebearers are amazing at holding objectives in cover - go to ground with them and you've got a T5/3++ cover/FnP unit.

Bloodletters are fun, but along with Daemonettes need to be used in large numbers because they're squishy bolter fodder otherwise.

Fiends & 'Crushers pull the wieght of being the big hammer units. Crushers can pull some minor wound allocation shinanigans, but they're slower in getting to their targets. Fiends are wicked fast, even able to chase down vehicles or things like jump troops and come with boatloads of rending attacks.

Flesh Hounds make GK players cry cheese! (ironic as that seems). Along with Seekers they can readily chase after vehicles and tear apart the weaker rear armour with S5 attacks or rending.

Screamers are our answer to av14 bunkers like land raiders. 53pts for 3 'jetbike' type melta bombs is a decent investment, and not the kind of unit most people want to firepower on.

Princes are outstanding, but their upgrades are generally overcosted. The most popular builds tend to be MoT + Bolt for more anti-vehicle. MoK + Blessing for close combat killiness (and to flip the bird to GK players!) MoN + touch & might for character/MC hunting.
Wings are great, but 60pts is beyond stupidly over-costed... Due to how we deploy anyways, it's not really that important since you can still 'run' your hitty princes the turn they land to make-up some extra ground.

Khorne Heralds on juggers add scary punch to units of crushers, while slapping them on a chariot is basically like taking another low-cost MC!
Tzeentch Heralds add desperately needed anti-tank abilities.
Nurgle & Slaanesh Heralds are kinda lackluster overall, but a Slaaneshii herald on chariot can be annoying as it's super fast and has alot of rending attacks, plus the ability to remove an attack from 1 enemy model in base-to-base.

Fateweaver is godly! His bubble pretty much doubles the survivability of your army and he's a staple in pretty much every single competitive Daemons list.



We've got the tools, even if our army is getting a bit stale and in need of some re-working. But we're still definately a competitive army! (expect vs GK's)

Plus as an added bonus, playing Daemons means you get a Fantasy army at the same time you're building your 40k army!

Draigo wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Tough nothing

Daemon Hunters codex was a challenge.

GK (the new one) are just BEYOND.

There is one trick they can pull to deny you even deploying (autowin), but anyone pulling it is a WAAC TFG that you shouldn't play again anyway

Wings allow you to move like you have a jump pack. They are spendy as hell in the Daemons dex, but a 12'' move over terrain can be handy, and some of the more fun models start with them.

Oh boo hoo.. outside of spamming warp quake there is little different for MOST gk builds vs daemons as if they played bt. Daemonbane hardly works since most daemons are 1 wound and ld 10. Psykout yea can be rough but hardly any worse then playing the elves. So no the new are not as bad as the old when we could ignore invulns etc. lol Plus if daemons want they can get a 2++ vs gk with khorne daemons and blessing of the blood god. lol GK used to have build in shroud +bonus to str and all sorts of built in stuff. lol Ascalam is just a band wagoner trying to scare ya.

Says the bandwagoner in the audience

Who is netnamed after the most BEYOND GK in the dex, hmm? Sure isn't me. I own the codex btw, bought because i was hoping my GK would get brought up to par with my friends armies for playability. I don't play it, because it's too easy to beat them with it, short of sabotaging my game deliberately.

Can you seriously look at the new GK codex and not say that it is capable of some severely BEYOND builds (not counting the surreal monkeys with lascannons spamlist...thats beyond beyond ) Not everyone runs Khorne either, so that groovy Khornate psychic resistance doesn't always apply

The New GK aren't impossible to fight. They are however a much rougher matchup for daemons than most other armies. I used to run oldschool GK (back when you could ignore invuln's) and they were weak tea compared to the BS that GK can throw down now. I don't seem to recall the old GK having Psyflemen Dreads, Storm Ravens, Daemon Weapons , Dreadknights...

and a variety of other batgak insane stuff like Joaekero (sp?).

Daemonbane works just fine on your HQ's, Daemon Princes, Heralds etc. LD 10 helps, but not that much.

My advice is to try a few games out against a GK player. Maybe the ones around your way aren't the WAAC TFG's I get to deal with It's possible that i got a little jaded by being beaten down by 'competitive build' GK players that pulled some of the ODDEST quasi-legal shenanigans, like trying to carry Dreadknights in Stormravens..


I'm not looking to start/continue another flame thread about the GK, so i'll agree to disagree with Draigo about their OP-ness vs Daemons. There are a bunch of other threads in the forum that have the arguments for and against laid out better than i could put them.

Experiment 626 wrote:Flamers are godly suicide troops, so easy to land just 3 of 'em rpretty much on top of your opponent's prized unit and then watch them explode into dust with their template attacks. As an added bonus they also still have the basic Warpfire attack, so even if you scatter poorly you can still fling some hurt.

They are way better when you put some brainpower into their use and realize that they are jump infantry so that they are fairly mobile. There is no reason to throw away a 105 pt unit that can be useful over serveral turns. Adding more than 3 increases survivability of the unit dramatically as well, plus as you said, even though you might not be able to hit a unit with more than 3 or 4 flame templates, you can still throw out plenty of shots with warpfire.

Fiends & 'Crushers pull the wieght of being the big hammer units. Crushers can pull some minor wound allocation shinanigans, but they're slower in getting to their targets. Fiends are wicked fast, even able to chase down vehicles or things like jump troops and come with boatloads of rending attacks.

Agreed, i find these units to be more effective at taking out enemy light armor (transports) than bolts of tzeentch are. A 180 point unit of fiends can put out 36 rending attacks on the charge and can glance up to armor 14 vehicles, and will easily make a mockery of armor 10/11. Besides that, horrors are best in large units (really all the troops choices are, barring plaguebearers which are good as a small unit sitting on an objective), while the bolt upgrade may be cheap, wasting an entire units worth of shooting just to hit one vehicle with a bs3 shot that may or may not do anything useful is really wasteful.

Screamers are our answer to av14 bunkers like land raiders. 53pts for 3 'jetbike' type melta bombs is a decent investment, and not the kind of unit most people want to firepower on.

I've never been successful with them sadly, but most of my opponents are walker or fast skimmer heavy, so im usually looking at a 6+ to hit with 1 attack each. Against more conventional armor where you have a 4+ (or an autohit if stationary) these will indeed be your best friend.

Princes are outstanding, but their upgrades are generally overcosted.

Agreed! I like mine with unholy might, the extra point of strength is supremely useful for taking out vehicles. A good midcost build is Unholy might, mark of tzeentch, and bolt of change, it comes out to the same cost as a soulgrinder w/ tongue, but I find it is not only FAR more survivable, but also far more capable. If you have extra points you can also give it breath of chaos to make it a more effect troop killer.

Khorne Heralds on juggers add scary punch to units of crushers, while slapping them on a chariot is basically like taking another low-cost MC!
Tzeentch Heralds add desperately needed anti-tank abilities.
Nurgle & Slaanesh Heralds are kinda lackluster overall, but a Slaaneshii herald on chariot can be annoying as it's super fast and has alot of rending attacks, plus the ability to remove an attack from 1 enemy model in base-to-base.

Yep. If you're taking Heralds, I always recommend taking the Blue Scribes and Masque before anything else though. The Blue Scribes are more points effective than similar Herald of Tzeentch builds and give you far more options. To me they are a "swiss army knife". The Masque is great for her potential 3 Pavane's a turn (plus the blue scribes have it too!). Take 2 more heralds with bolts and you have a decent amount of ranged anti-tank.

Fateweaver is godly! His bubble pretty much doubles the survivability of your army and he's a staple in pretty much every single competitive Daemons list.

I find him to be a mixed bag... I've never NOT had him run away like a little bitch after the first wound he takes, and I usually take the first wound the turn after he arrives. How I manage to fail a 3+ rerollable save and then roll an 11 or 12 for leadership I will never know ><

Plus as an added bonus, playing Daemons means you get a Fantasy army at the same time you're building your 40k army!

OH YEAH! Just be careful how you base your minis. All my infantry minis go on round 25mm bases, and Im working on laser cut movement trays that I can slot them into that will have engraved 25mm square markings on them so I can rank up properly, etc. Some of the other units, like bloodcrushers, go on the square bases (because they are the smaller ones), and when I use them for 40k I put them on top of 60mm rounds (which I am eventually going to attach square slots to so I dont have to worry about my minis falling off.

Daemons are boring to hobby with, boring to game with, boring to watch people play with T-T

If by boring you mean great/fun/awesome, then you would be correct.

LunaHound wrote:Daemons are boring to hobby with, boring to game with, boring to watch people play with T-T

Obvious troll is Obvious.

Daemons are an excellent but strange army to play, being that the way that they play differs heavily too most armies and have their advantages and disadvantages.

Pros
-Invunrable Saves and Immunity to instant death makes daemons perfect against armies with lots of power weapons and that depend on removing infantry quickly, my 10 horrors only lost one model to a demolisher cannon shot.
-Daemons boost allot of unqiue units, and have the abbility to field power weapon wielding troops, fast attacking monsters that slow and weaken the enemy and can take massive amounts of punishment.
-Heralds only take up half an HQ choice, meaning you can have 4 multiple targeting, heavy weapon jet bikes for less than a 120pts each
Cons
-Invunrable saves are low (5+ is the average)
-High unit costs
-Most units are one sided, and mono armies can be easily countered

Since when does different opinion equates to trolling?
Are there no warhammer army you have zero interests in?

LunaHound wrote:Since when does different opinion equates to trolling?
Are there no warhammer army you have zero interests in?

Yes, but going on to blatantly declare this to someone who has intreast in the army is effectively flame baiting. I may dislike the GK's but, I have no intention of posting "I don't like this army" and contribute nothing to a thread, if a member posted that he or she had intreast in starting the army, I wouldn't just go and be TFG and start saying the army was bad and annoying people.

blood reaper wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Since when does different opinion equates to trolling?
Are there no warhammer army you have zero interests in?

Yes, but going on to blatantly declare this to someone who has intreast in the army is effectively flame baiting. I may dislike the GK's but, I have no intention of posting "I don't like this army" and contribute nothing to the thread.

So you are saying, in a thread where opinions were asked, because I dont praise the army, I should keep my opinions to myself?

Alright then....

*edit.
Hiya Mod you might want to remove this post too, because too often when you guys delete one side of the convo,
it makes me look completely out of context and easily misunderstood.

Thank you.

<Back on topic, folks - the thread asked for opinions, and opinions have been received; discussing whether or not the opinions should be offered is OT>

@Ascalam

Hardly a bandwagoner but sure if that makes you feel better. Also throwing out a bunch a smileys doesnt make you post any less bandwagon GK are so OP whiners. He asks how the current meta is and you immediately give silly net cries of op.

Right now the major thing to watch for is psyk out grenades the rest does not ALWAYS come into play.

Vs the current meta daemons can be competitive if you build a fatecrusher type list on average. Thats not different from many other armies who have 1-2 big time lists. Sometimes missions and rules of the tournament can make an all ds army hard because you may not make it past turn 3-4.

I'll apologise for that remark, to start of with, but to be fair you used it first.

I've played GK against Daemons, and i've played Daemons against GK. I'll let you guess which was the easier.

I've found the GK codex to be somewhere between powerful and win-button against some armies, but most of them have the ability to cope with Gk if they know it's coming. GK do have their vulnerabilities, like a lack of effective long range antitank capable of taking down AV 14. (unless you go monkeyspam )

The fact reamains that they are still a very powerful codex.

Against Daemons they are even more powerful, on top of being a very powerful codex already, and the drawbacks to playing GK (low model count, little long range antitank) are either shared by the Daemons (low model count) or irrelevant (Daemons only have one vehicle, and it's not that hard to take down with S8 fire, which GK''s can spam in abundance.

Add in the ability to nix the daemons preferred playstyle (drop in close to a unit, try to survive the firepower and then close to close combat/shoot up close) , preferred enemy: Daemons (though if any army should have that it's GK ) , the ability to shut down the Daemons' Gifts (which is equivilent to shutting down all the wargear on a normal army's unit) in the close combat phase with librarians, the grenade stew that they can pile on..

They are obscenely powerful against Daemons. Very fluffy, very appropriate, but rather one-sided against most Daemon builds, as GK are the top of the power ladder, and daemons are currently somewhere in the middle.

Daemons play decently in the current Meta, though the deepstrike deployment can make them rather easily targettable by blast weapons, and usually leaves CC troops twiddling their thumbs and being shot to bits. If they survive the turn they arrive they can be quite potent against most armies though.

Blast weapons aren't really that scary, as you can easily spread out with even a 2" run move. There is a certain randomness inherent to daemons, but if you compare their statlines and point costs to units from other armies, you see that they've been costed to deal with the fact that they're going to be outnumbered on turn 1 and dealing with scatter rolls.

A well-built daemon army does fine even against GK, as a rule, particularly given that the vast majority of GK armies you see out there have few or no Strike Squads or Interceptors, so the daemons don't have to worry about Warp Quake most of the time. With a little tweaking Daemons can make their army dramatically better against GK too, by fielding a Bloodthirster and/or Flesh Hounds with Collars of Khorne. This gives them a 2+ invulnerable save against all force weapons. Sucks to be a GK fighting those.

As noted, shooty Tzeentch units are very important and popular. Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots and Princes often form the backbone of your shooting. Horrors and Plagues make durable scoring units, the Horrors offering more shooting. Bloodletters are also effective scoring units, and extremely brutal in HtH if they get there. Daemonettes are the weak sister of the Troops, but are not bad in large numbers, especially since they have Fleet and grenades.

For Elites, Fiends are fantastic. Most good daemon lists bring 2-3 squads of six. They hit extremely hard, can Hit & Ruin to get out of bad combats, and are so fast they can safely Deep Strike away from the enemy, hidden behind terrain if necessary, and still be able to catch and charge them the next turn. Bloodletters are also good (particularly with Fateweaver) but comparatively slow. Including a Khorne herald on a Jugger is often a good idea.

Thanks for the opinions. So far, im getting the impression that you have to have a good build and a little (well, a fair bit ) experiance to get anywhere with daemons.

@ LunaHound. Why are daemons bad? In your opinion.

Demons have three big problems.

1. They don't have transports, which, combined with their low saves, makes them vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons.

2. They don't have a good way to bust enemy transports, which means that, even though they're good close combat fighters, they have a hard time getting into combat as long as their opponent refuses to get out of their tanks. The new forgeworld model helps but overall it's still a serious weakness for the army.

3. Their codex is written in the old "keep it simple, stupid" style, which handicaps them against newer books that are written with a "here's a toy box, have fun" style. Alot of your opponents will have tons of goodies, while all you get is some silly defensive grenades or some nonsense like that.

Your biggest advantages as a demon player is that people don't know how to fight you because they hardly ever have to play against demons, and you have blood crushers, which are still one of the best close combat units in the game, point for point. But even on a good day you'l need to out think your opponent to do well with this army. Unless you go for the fate crusher build, which simply requires an opponent with an older codex, or who has never seen it before.

I find it strange that I started as GK, then went to IG, and now starting Daemons. Metal boxes are good and all but get old to model after a while. The daemons are a breath of fresh air in custom models, proxies, and dynamic posing that you can achieve.

Play wise, also very different. It's definately a fun army to play with because I enjoy the randomness when I get tired of static gun lines or formation movements.

Also, if you have more than one army, you can actually play against yourself fairly well with daemons just because it is so random!

GreatGunz wrote:Demons have three big problems.

1. They don't have transports, which, combined with their low saves, makes them vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons.

While true, we can get around this drawback through our unique deployment, (deep striking into cover & within arms reach), and/or add some of the faster units like Fiends, Seekers and Hounds into our army.
You can also take the 'easy button' solution and bring in Fateweaver for his re-roll bubble. Use some princes to block line of sight to him and just march your main phalanx of re-rolled invulnerable saves wherever you want!

Once you start locking a few of those shooty units in combat, your slower footsloggers will obviously have an easier time of it.

GreatGunz wrote:2. They don't have a good way to bust enemy transports, which means that, even though they're good close combat fighters, they have a hard time getting into combat as long as their opponent refuses to get out of their tanks. The new forgeworld model helps but overall it's still a serious weakness for the army.

Bring Tzeentch Heralds & Princes and watch those av11/12 metal bawkes explode like fireworks! Small squads of 5 or 6 pinkies can also take 1 Bolt of Tzeentch upgrade and just sit in cover near an objective if you think you need more anti-tank.

Fiends, Seekers & Hounds will also munch down transports pretty damn fast due to throwing out rather rude numbers of either S5 attacks and/or rending attacks.

Av14 is the real pill for us, because our strongest ranged shooting is only S8/ap1, so you need to hit, roll a 6 to glance and then another 6 to wreck it. If you face off against a wall of av13/14, you will cry a bit and basically be forced to use your combat answers almost exclusively.

GreatGunz wrote:3. Their codex is written in the old "keep it simple, stupid" style, which handicaps them against newer books that are written with a "here's a toy box, have fun" style. Alot of your opponents will have tons of goodies, while all you get is some silly defensive grenades or some nonsense like that.

This is annoying for sure. We were the 1st codex for 5th edition, but our army was released two months before 5th dropped and suffers a bit from the ungodly moronic design phase that ruined DA's & CSM's.

That said, it's not like we don't have any toys at all, we've got some pretty nifty tricks! The Changeling for example is easily the best unit upgrade in the game! Force one of your opponent's units who shoot at that squad to take a Ld test and potentially shoot his own guys, or else just forget it and forfit that unit's shooting for a turn.
Transfixing Gaze is another nifty trick, removing an attack from a chosen model in base-to-base contact with the model. Instant funtimes when you can remove a power fist attack, or a dreadnought attack for example!

I do enjoy the randomness of the army, and the models are cool.

It is a nice change of pace from Mech Vulkan Marines.

Sure they're not impossible to play with. I just think they require more skill and forethought to use than some of the newer armies <cough cough grey knights>. It's not a bad army to start as long as you know what you're getting into.

That said, it's not like we don't have any toys at all, we've got some pretty nifty tricks! The Changeling for example is easily the best unit upgrade in the game! Force one of your opponent's units who shoot at that squad to take a Ld test and potentially shoot his own guys, or else just forget it and forfit that unit's shooting for a turn.

Unless they fire a vehicles weapons at it.

Id say daemons definately take some practice to get the hang of. Especially with deployment. Noone likes to have their Greater Daemon die turn 1 from a mishap.


There are definately some cool units in the book (Flamers are probably my favourite).

I like doing fluffly lists for daemons and playing mono-god lists.

They probably arent really what Id call a competitive army, mainly due to the randomness of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2 things I would add on as a second thought.

1. wings are way overpriced, try not to buy them.

2. After some practice deepstriking you probably wont really need Icons.

Thanks all for your continual input, i really appreciate it!
...Its looking like im going with daemons some time in the future. (Another 2 units in my SM list then im ready to embrace the dark side)

@Xeriapt.
1) I dont see the logic to buying wings if your going to DS into their face. And your right, they are over priced.

2) I'm not going to bother with Icons in the first place. Dont DS within about 6" of anything, and you usually end up alright.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That said, it's not like we don't have any toys at all, we've got some pretty nifty tricks! The Changeling for example is easily the best unit upgrade in the game! Force one of your opponent's units who shoot at that squad to take a Ld test and potentially shoot his own guys, or else just forget it and forfit that unit's shooting for a turn.

Unless they fire a vehicles weapons at it.

Vehicles are treated as Ld10 so there's still some risk. It's quite fun when a Land Raider Crusader suddenly turns it's hurricane bolters into the termies that just jumped out and then multi-melta's the nearby lazorback!

I pretty much always have the changeling in the army, for 5pts hes worth it.

Even though the ability has rarely worked for me.

It can be handy for stopping assaults though, because you generally have to charge what you shoot.