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Unless there is something more concrete than its inclusion in a 2,000 year old book that has been extensively rewritten over the centuries then its going to have to stay a myth.

I would be careful of that persecution complex that you seem to have developed.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Which is a pretty word for a lie. Atheists don't use too many pretty words for Christians.

No, but we academics are apt to use that word to describe the beliefs established among historical cultures; amusingly, Euhemerus of Pella had begun to do the same thing in the 3rd century BC.

Palindrome wrote:Unless there is something more concrete than its inclusion in a 2,000 year old book that has been extensively rewritten over the centuries then its going to have to stay a myth.

I would be careful of that persecution complex that you seem to have developed.

That's an incorrect and common assumption. The message has remained unchanged, the only differences are minor translation issues.

The Torah and tradition are extremely important to the Jewish people, they would not easily let it be changed. It is enough to point out that nearly every book in the Bible was recorded decades to centuries after the fact, which alone should cause doubt to its credibility.

Amaya wrote:

Palindrome wrote:Unless there is something more concrete than its inclusion in a 2,000 year old book that has been extensively rewritten over the centuries then its going to have to stay a myth.

I would be careful of that persecution complex that you seem to have developed.

That's an incorrect and common assumption. The message has remained unchanged, the only differences are minor translation issues.

The Torah and tradition are extremely important to the Jewish people, they would not easily let it be changed. It is enough to point out that nearly every book in the Bible was recorded decades to centuries after the fact, which alone should cause doubt to its credibility.

Minor translational issues may become highly significant, especially after multiple translations. Either way I would be very hesitant to take the bible as gospel (heh).

SlaveToDorkness wrote:sirlynchmob, read your biased little article. It means nothing without data showing percentages that Churches spend on overhead, which is the basis of their whole argument. Without that it's one long "Nu UHHH!" unless you're predispositioned to believe it. Which is a funny thing for an Atheist to do.

the overhead really depends on the church. so are you really saying churches don't spend money for maintaining their building? Its not like you can just google how much does it cost to run a church. churches seem to be more secretive about their accounts than our government. so its hard to find real numbers.

but after all of this:
- Church repairs.
- Church maintenance: electricity, gas, cost of light bulbs, cost of cleaning services (janitor), cleaning materials, routine painting, etc., new roof about every 15 years or so., routine plumbing, carpet cleaning/replacement.
- Lawn and gardening services.
- Fire insurance, legal insurance, health insurance for staff.
- Snow removal services.
- Parking lot maintenance and repair; rental of land on which lot is located if not owned.
- Mortgage of building, or rent if applicable.
- Construction, new additions or building, if congregation grows too large for existing struction.
- Staff salaries: pastor, secretary, asst pastors, choir/music director, counselors.
- Materials for study classes: Bibles, books on theology, etc. for class
- Choir robes, music, organs, pianos, etc.
- Costs of celebrations such as Christmas, Easter, Communion, Confirmations
- Office supplies/mailing: office space and furniture, paper supplies, etc. and mailings to the congregation
- Renewals of yearly licensing as a church and other legal costs of maintaining a non-profit religious institution.
- Transportation and lodging and fees for pastors/asst's attending educational conventions to further their professional abilities or standing.
- Many churches own, maintain and repair a parsonage (house where pastor lives as part of his salary).

How much is really left for charities? next time you find yourself in a church why don't you ask where your donations go. Then ask them what charities they give to. Then see what kind of overhead your church has compared to a real charity like: http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/ with its 1% overhead. or http://www.savethechildren.org/site/c.8rKLIXMGIpI4E/b.6115947/k.8D6E/Official_Site.htm with 4% overhead.

But the real issue here, is you seem to believe you are a better person, than atheists because you belong to a church. don't you find that a bit bigoted?

Relapse wrote:
There were plenty of good people in Germany. I would hardly call the entirety of the German population simular to the Manson family. As far as the ancient peoples go, I put that forward as hypothosis.

Are you actually trying to compare every single member of Ancient Egypt to the Manson family?

Are you actually trying to argue that every single first born child in Egypt, regardless of their age or personal feelings on the jewish people, deserved 'divine justice'?

They haven't. Passages from recovered manuscripts, parchments, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc, are nearly identical to current passages.

The differences in translation amount to things along the line of "they cried out" instead of "they wept aloud."

As I said before the fact all of it is based on oral tradition, secondhand knowledge, and written decades to centuries after the events is enough question the historicity of the Bible. You don't need to crutch on the "Bible has been rewritten" myth in order to have massive doubts about it.

Yes, totally, Sirlynchmob, you found me out.

Amaya wrote:They haven't. Passages from recovered manuscripts, parchments, especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc, are nearly identical to current passages.

The differences in translation amount to things along the line of "they cried out" instead of "they wept aloud."

As I said before the fact all of it is based on oral tradition, secondhand knowledge, and written decades to centuries after the events is enough question the historicity of the Bible. You don't need to crutch on the "Bible has been rewritten" myth in order to have massive doubts about it.

please, you've obviously never read the translations, here's a fun one from the dead sea scrolls:

When the Most High (Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance,
When He divided up humanity,
He fixed the boundaries for peoples,
According to the number of the divine sons;
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob His own inheritance.
[Deuteronomy 32:8-9]

hey look at that, yahwheh's dad gave him the jews, and to yahweh's brothers (other gods), other nations.

to this:
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel

hey where did gods dad and brothers go?

I don't know if I'd called translation issues minor... Not for the Old Testament. Take for example Lucifer. There's an ongoing dispute stemmed from the translation of a single word and its meaning that could suggest there is no antithesis to god. That's not minor.

@sirlynchmob, not only are you reading the verse incorrectly, but you'd debating a basic concept that's already known. It's called Henotheism. It's the basic template for religion in ancient Mesopotamia. And issues with the writings of various books are also well documented based on exactly who the authors were. In the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls the authors were the Essenes,basically monks and their views were radically different from those of the Pharasees and the Sadducees (from whom most modern translations stem).

EDIT: i'll also point out its been argued that Yahweh, or yhwh take your pick, is itself a massive self-propoggating translation error.

Amaya wrote:Melissia, your hatred and disgust of Christianity has been made apparent multiple times on these boards. We get it, you were raised around a bunch of hard ass fundamentalist pseudo Christians with minimal Biblical knowledge who use their 'religion' as an excuse to be bigots.

Get over it.

GG, perhaps you should actually study the historicity of the Bible, particular the Old Testament before attempting to argue its schematics. Archaeological can not possibly prove that any thing in the Bible happened the way it is recorded. A significant portion of ancient records are extremely biased towards certain viewpoints. Simple reporting of the facts becomes more and more uncommon the farther you go back in history.

There is no evidence that towns named Sodom and Gomorrah existed. Multiple possible candidates exist for where they could have potentially existed, but everything points toward it being a natural disaster that was interpreted by Hebrews as an act of Yahweh because nearly every culture back then interpreted natural disasters as an act of a deity/deities.

From Christian research journal...

Biblical Archaeology: Factual Evidence to Support the Historicity of the Bible
DA111
Paul L. Maier

This article first appeared in the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 2 (2004). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

Archaeological finds that contradict the contentions of biblical minimalists and other revisionists have been listed above. There are many more, however, that corroborate biblical evidence, and the following list provides only the most significant discoveries:

A Common Flood Story. Not just the Hebrews (Gen. 6–8), but Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and Greeks all report a flood in primordial times. A Sumerian king list from c. 2100 BC divides itself into two categories: those kings who ruled before a great flood and those who ruled after it. One of the earliest examples of Sumero-Akkadian-Babylonian literature, the Gilgamesh Epic, describes a great flood sent as punishment by the gods, with humanity saved only when the pious Utnapishtim (AKA, “the Mesopotamian Noah”) builds a ship and saves the animal world thereon. A later Greek counterpart, the story of Deucalion and Phyrra, tells of a couple who survived a great flood sent by an angry Zeus. Taking refuge atop Mount Parnassus (AKA, “the Greek Ararat”), they supposedly repopulated the earth by heaving stones behind them that sprang into human beings.

The Code of Hammurabi. This seven-foot black diorite stele, discovered at Susa and presently located in the Louvre museum, contains 282 engraved laws of Babylonian King Hammurabi (fl. 1750 BC). The common basis for this law code is the lex talionis (“the law of the tooth”), showing that there was a common Semitic law of retribution in the ancient Near East, which is clearly reflected in the Pentateuch. Exodus 21:23–25, for example, reads: “But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot…” (niv).

The Nuzi Tablets. The some 20,000 cuneiform clay tablets discovered at the ruins of Nuzi, east of the Tigris River and datable to c. 1500 BC, reveal institutions, practices, and customs remarkably congruent to those found in Genesis. These tablets include treaties, marriage arrangements, rules regarding inheritance, adoption, and the like.

The Existence of Hittites. Genesis 23 reports that Abraham buried Sarah in the Cave of Machpelah, which he purchased from Ephron the Hittite. Second Samuel 11 tells of David’s adultery with Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite. A century ago the Hittites were unknown outside of the Old Testament, and critics claimed that they were a figment of biblical imagination. In 1906, however, archaeologists digging east of Ankara, Turkey, discovered the ruins of Hattusas, the ancient Hittite capital at what is today called Boghazkoy, as well as its vast collection of Hittite historical records, which showed an empire flourishing in the mid-second millennium BC. This critical challenge, among many others, was immediately proved worthless — a pattern that would often be repeated in the decades to come.

The Merneptah Stele. A seven-foot slab engraved with hieroglyphics, also called the Israel Stele, boasts of the Egyptian pharaoh’s conquest of Libyans and peoples in Palestine, including the Israelites: “Israel — his seed is not.” This is the earliest reference to Israel in nonbiblical sources and demonstrates that, as of c. 1230 BC, the Hebrews were already living in the Promised Land.

Biblical Cities Attested Archaeologically. In addition to Jericho, places such as Haran, Hazor, Dan, Megiddo, Shechem, Samaria, Shiloh, Gezer, Gibeah, Beth Shemesh, Beth Shean, Beersheba, Lachish, and many other urban sites have been excavated, quite apart from such larger and obvious locations as Jerusalem or Babylon. Such geographical markers are extremely significant in demonstrating that fact, not fantasy, is intended in the Old Testament historical narratives; otherwise, the specificity regarding these urban sites would have been replaced by “Once upon a time” narratives with only hazy geographical parameters, if any.

Israel’s enemies in the Hebrew Bible likewise are not contrived but solidly historical. Among the most dangerous of these were the Philistines, the people after whom Palestine itself would be named. Their earliest depiction is on the Temple of Rameses III at Thebes, c. 1150 BC, as “peoples of the sea” who invaded the Delta area and later the coastal plain of Canaan. The Pentapolis (five cities) they established — namely Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Gath, and Ekron — have all been excavated, at least in part, and some remain cities to this day. Such precise urban evidence measures favorably when compared with the geographical sites claimed in the holy books of other religious systems, which often have no basis whatever in reality.10

GG

More... from http://carm.org/questions/archaeological-evidence-verifying-biblical-cities

Archaeological evidence verifying biblical cities

There is very little doubt in anyone's mind about the reality of so many of the Old and New Testament cities mentioned in the Bible. Therefore, it is hardly necessary to document their existence. Nevertheless, following is a partial list of some of the cities mentioned in the Bible that have been found and excavated by archaeologists. This is simply more evidence for the Bible, because it describes actual locations that can be verified. This means that at the very least, the Bible accurately reflects the locations and cities of ancient times.

Remember, this is only a partial list. There are hundreds of biblical cities that have been verified in archaeological digs.

Arad
Num. 21:1, "When the Canaanite, the king of Arad, who lived in the Negev, heard that Israel was coming by the way of Atharim, then he fought against Israel, and took some of them captive."
Num. 33:40, "Now the Canaanite, the king of Arad who lived in the Negev in the land of Canaan, heard of the coming of the sons of Israel."
"Arad 30 km NE of Beersheba, excavated from 1962 to 1974 by Y. Aharoni and R. B. K. Amiran." (The New Bible Dictionary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.)
"The site consists of an upper mound or acropolis, where excavation has revealed an Iron Age (post thirteenth century b.c." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.
The remains of a Hebrew temple were uncovered at Arad, (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p.45-46.)

Bethel
Amos 7:12-13, "Then Amaziah said to Amos, "Go, you seer, flee away to the land of Judah, and there eat bread and there do your prophesying! 13 "But no longer prophesy at Bethel, for it is a sanctuary of the king and a royal residence."
"W. F. Albright made a trial excavation at Bethel in 1927. Albright then mounted a full excavation in 1934. His assistant that year, J. L. Kelso, continued the excavation in 1954, 1957, and 1960." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Capernaum
Matt. 17:24, "And when they had come to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter, and said, "Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?"
"Identified since 1856 with Tell Hum, Capernaum has been sporadically excavated for the past 130 years." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Chorazin
Matt. 11:21, "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes."
"Excavations of the now deserted town indicate that it once covered an area of twelve acres and was built on a series of terraces with the basalt stone local to this mountainous region." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Dan
Judges 18:29, "And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father who was born in Israel; however, the name of the city formerly was Laish."
"The excavation of Dan began in 1966 under the direction of Avraham Biran." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 42)
"Formerly called Laish, it is mentioned in the execration texts, the eighteenth-century B.C. Mari tablets, and the records of the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmose III. It is identified with Tel Dan (modern Tell el-Qadi) covering about 50 acres in the center of a fertile valley near one of the principal springs feeding the Jordan River... Tel Dan has been excavated by A. Biran since 1966. The earliest occupation, probably the full extent of the tell, goes back to about the middle of the third millennium B.C." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary; San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Ephesus
Eph. 1:1, "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus."
"Austrian archaeologists in this century [20th] have excavated the 24,000-seat theater and the commercial agora, as well as many other public buildings and streets of the first and second centuries A.D., so that the modern visitor can gain some impression of the city as known by Paul. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Gaza
Acts 8:26, "But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Arise and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza."
Gaza was excavated by W. J. Phythian-Adams in 1922. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Gezer
Joshua 16:10, "But they did not drive out the Canaanites who lived in Gezer..."
R.A.S. MacAlister "directed the Palestine Exploration Fund for many years and conducted extensive excavations at Gezer (1902-1909). (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who's Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)

Hazor
Joshua 11:1, "Then it came about, when Jabin king of Hazor heard of it, that he sent to Jobab king of Madon and to the king of Shimron and to the king of Achshaph."
Jer. 49:28, "Concerning Kedar and the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated. Thus says the Lord, "Arise, go up to Kedar and devastate the men of the east."
"This large Canaanite and Israelite city in upper Galilee was excavated under Yigael Yadin's direction from 1955 to 1958 and from 1968 to 1970." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40.)

Hesbon
Josh. 12:2, "Sihon king of the Amorites, who lived in Heshbon, and ruled from Aroer, which is on the edge of the valley of the Arnon..."
Excavations were undertaken by Andrews University from 1968 to 1976. (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Jericho
Num. 22:1, "Then the sons of Israel journeyed, and camped in the plains of Moab beyond the Jordan opposite Jericho."
"Jericho was the oldest inhabited and fortified city ever excavated." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 37)
"The city of OT times is represented today by a mound 70 feet high and 10 acres in area... The ancient city was excavated by C. Warren (1867), E. Sellin and C. Watzinger (1907-09), J. Garstang (1930-36), and K. Kenyon (1952-58)." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary; San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)
"The first scientific excavation there (1907-9) was by Sellin and Watzinger (Jericho, 1913)." (The New Bible Dictionary; Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962.).

Joppa
Acts 9:38,"And since Lydda was near Joppa, the disciples, having heard that Peter was there, sent two men to him, entreating him, "Do not delay to come to us."
"During excavations of the site of ancient Joppa a thirteenth-century B.C. citadel gate was uncovered..." (Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.; 1985.)

Nineveh
2 Kings 19:36, "So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed and returned home, and lived at Nineveh."
Jonah 1:1-2, "The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh the great city, and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me."
Excavated in from 1845 to 1857 by Austen H. Layard. (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who's Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)

Shechem
Gen. 12:6, "And Abram passed through the land as far as the site of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. Now the Canaanite was then in the land."
Gen. 33:18, "Now Jacob came safely to the city of Shechem, which is in the land of Canaan, when he came from Paddan-aram, and camped before the city."
"Excavations were carried out at Shechem, first by Austrian-German expeditions in 1913 and 1914, and again from 1926 to 1934, under several directors, and then by an American expedition from 1956 to 1972.... Excavation of the sacred area revealed a courtyard sanctuary and a later fortress temple dedicated to El-berith "the god of the covenant." This temple, which was destroyed by Abimelech, the son of the judge Gideon (Judges 9) has provided us with a date of the Judges period." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40)
Most recently a structure identified as an Israelite altar has been excavated on the northeastern slope of Mt. Ebal. Dating to the 13th to 12th centuries B.C., considered to be the time of Joshua, the altar suggest the possibility that it may be the altar built by Joshua and described in Deuteronomy 27, 28." (Horn, Siegfried H., Biblical Archaeology: a Generation of Discovery; Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan; 1985. p. 40)

Susa

Neh. 1:1, "The words of Nehemiah the son of Hacaliah. Now it happened in the month Chislev, in the twentieth year, while I was in Susa the capitol,

Esther 1:1-2, "Now it took place in the days of Ahasuerus, the Ahasuerus who reigned from India to Ethiopia over 127 provinces, 2 in those days as King Ahasuerus sat on his royal throne which was in Susa the capital,

Excavations were conducted by Marcel Dieulafoy from 1884 to 1886 (Douglas, J. D., Comfort, Philip W. & Mitchell, Donald, Editors, Who's Who in Christian History, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1992.)

GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Palindrome wrote:

Minor translational issues may become highly significant, especially after multiple translations. Either way I would be very hesitant to take the bible as gospel (heh).

The Bible translation that you describe is some sort analogy to "the phone game". This is not how the Bible was copied. Yes textual variants crept in over the years but the vast..I repeat VAST majority of these errors were minor(I.E grammatical in nature) and do not effect major Christian orthodox doctrine.

GG

The fact that there was a flood does not mean God sent a flood to destroy the world.

Amaya wrote:The fact that there was a flood does not mean God sent a flood to destroy the world.

Amaya..I would agree with the logic in that statement..however I was responding to the assumptions in your statements regarding the pre book of Kings historicity of the Bible.

GG

Plus as was pointed out in another thread, the Chinese are still proof there was no biblical flood.

GG, this is why no one should read the Christian Research Journal. Of the three groups theologians can broadly fit into, those who work with the CRJ fall into the "Wants to prove Christianity right" catagory. That's all well and good, but they're so busy ax grinding and living in their little words that they produce almost nothing of value for scholars (and I'm a believer btw).

A Common Flood Story.

We know (everyone should anyway). Flood stories are a near universal cultural concept. The CRJ apparently left out the Chinese, Indians, Japanese, Meso-Americans. Even the ancient peoples of the Andes mountains have one! Problem? Humans tended to settle river valleys (we still do). River valleys have a habit of flooding. Over the course of a thousand years, there will be major floods. Even in the middle of a desert region. It's not really shocking that everyone has a flood story. Especially since the Egyptians and the Jews are descended from the Mesopotamian civilization, that they all reference one is less surprising. It's not evidence.

The Code of Hammurabi + the Nuzi Tablets

The Jews came after Hammurabi. They're descended from the Mesopotamian cultural tradition. It's not evidence of the Bible's truth.

The Existence of Hittites. Genesis 23 reports that Abraham buried Sarah in the Cave of Machpelah, which he purchased from Ephron the Hittite. Second Samuel 11 tells of David’s adultery with Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite. A century ago the Hittites were unknown outside of the Old Testament, and critics claimed that they were a figment of biblical imagination. In 1906, however, archaeologists digging east of Ankara, Turkey, discovered the ruins of Hattusas, the ancient Hittite capital at what is today called Boghazkoy, as well as its vast collection of Hittite historical records, which showed an empire flourishing in the mid-second millennium BC. This critical challenge, among many others, was immediately proved worthless — a pattern that would often be repeated in the decades to come.

This is outright wrong. While its true that for some time Historians considered the Hittites to be a myth (or a name for an already existent group) they are referenced outside the Bible. Ancient Greek, Egyptian, Phonecian, and Persian texts all reference the Hittites. The problem for the Bible is that they no longer existed by the time the Bible seemingly refers too. Most important is that the historical Hittites were no where near Palestine. They never made it much farther south than Turkey.

The Merneptah Stele.

Also false. There are several known sources for the ancient Israel, including Persian and Egyptian (they just aren't always called Israel, sometimes they're called the People of the Book).

Biblical Cities Attested Archaeologically. In addition to Jericho, places such as Haran, Hazor, Dan, Megiddo, Shechem, Samaria, Shiloh, Gezer, Gibeah, Beth Shemesh, Beth Shean, Beersheba, Lachish, and many other urban sites have been excavated, quite apart from such larger and obvious locations as Jerusalem or Babylon. Such geographical markers are extremely significant in demonstrating that fact, not fantasy, is intended in the Old Testament historical narratives; otherwise, the specificity regarding these urban sites would have been replaced by “Once upon a time” narratives with only hazy geographical parameters, if any.

Misleading. Many of these sites are just assumed. The sites certainly exist, but whether they're actually the sites mentioned in the Bible remains debated. Some of them certainly are known, but that's not really evidence that significant events described in the Bible actually happened there. Take Troy as a rough example. Everyone thought it was fake until someone found it. Everyone called it Troy. Then, everyone found out that it actually wasn't Troy. It's still called Troy, simply as a matter of habit. That, and it was never proven the site was Troy back when everyone thought it was. They just thought it was.

Israel’s enemies in the Hebrew Bible likewise are not contrived but solidly historical. Among the most dangerous of these were the Philistines, the people after whom Palestine itself would be named.

I don't know where the author heard that. Its the other way around. The Philistines were named after Philis, the region that roughly is now Palestine (Palestine itself is first used by the Greeks).

generalgrog wrote:

Amaya wrote:The fact that there was a flood does not mean God sent a flood to destroy the world.

Amaya..I would agree with the logic in that statement..however I was responding to the assumptions in your statements regarding the pre book of Kings historicity of the Bible.

GG

Your assumption remains incorrect. There is evidence that David and Solomon actually existed. There is no evidence that Noah existed or that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Amaya wrote:The fact that there was a flood does not mean God sent a flood to destroy the world.

The bigger issue, from a scientific perspective, is proving that the flood was global.

dogma wrote:

Amaya wrote:The fact that there was a flood does not mean God sent a flood to destroy the world.

The bigger issue, from a scientific perspective, is proving that the flood was global.

Agreed....

GG

There is evidence that David and Solomon actually existed.

While this is true, its probably important to recognize that the manner in which we know David's dynasty is the same manner in which we know many less civilization's lines of rulers. A lot of them have no concrete evidence for their lines of succession (not everyone built giant Pyramid tombs) and textual evidence is all that exists of them (or much less).

If we throw David and Solomon out simply on that notion, a lot of history has to be thrown out. It's much simpler and more effective to simply assume they are real for the time being baring evidence to the contrary. The only evidence to the contrary is mostly based in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and produced dubiously by people who oppose the existence of modern Israel.

Its actually a lot like the debate over the existence of the 1st Temple, which is really just asininely pointless.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Relapse wrote:
There were plenty of good people in Germany. I would hardly call the entirety of the German population simular to the Manson family. As far as the ancient peoples go, I put that forward as hypothosis.

Are you actually trying to compare every single member of Ancient Egypt to the Manson family?

Are you actually trying to argue that every single first born child in Egypt, regardless of their age or personal feelings on the jewish people, deserved 'divine justice'?

Like I said it is just a hypothosis, and I'll admit, pretty far from probability. The main thing is, children are basically innocent no matter what society they come from and God is not going to bar them from his presence, he recieved them as his own children.
A message far stronger than all the previous messages had to be sent to Pharoah and any others that would keep the Jews slaves.
God did not jump straight to taking the children, though. He sent all the other plagues first to try to convince the Egyptians to free the Jews.
Taking the children was the last measure that could not be ignored.

Relapse wrote:
Like I said it is just a hypothosis, and I'll admit, pretty far from probability. The main thing is, children are basically innocent no matter what society they come from and God is not going to bar them from his presence, he recieved them as his own children.

I admit I'm not well versed in most of the OT (really, I only know Leviticus), but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the view presented within, if only because religion was much more closely tied to something close to ethnicity. Those Egyptian babies were goyim. Now, some retconning may have gone on, but speaking just to the OT, I doubt they were considered to have been brought into God's presence (though, at that time, "god's" is the more appropriate term).

That said, the OT is a pretty cool read because you see the transformation of Judaism over time.

Supposedly there's an entire school of poetry that does nothing but study Psalms.

dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Like I said it is just a hypothosis, and I'll admit, pretty far from probability. The main thing is, children are basically innocent no matter what society they come from and God is not going to bar them from his presence, he recieved them as his own children.

I admit I'm not well versed in most of the OT (really, I only know Leviticus), but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the view presented within, if only because religion was much more closely tied to something close to ethnicity. Those Egyptian babies were goyim. Now, some retconning may have gone on, but speaking just to the OT, I doubt they were considered to have been brought into God's presence (though, at that time, "god's" is the more appropriate term).

That said, the OT is a pretty cool read because you see the transformation of Judaism over time.

It really doesn't offer an opinion, it just says that the firstborn from Pharoah's child down to those of prisoners in the dungeon died.
( Exodus 12:29)
The way I have been taught is that any child is going straight to the top if they die young because of their innocence. The Jews at the time probably might have enjoyed thinking the Egyptian children didn't make it because of what happened to their own chidren.(very broad assumption of one possible viewpoint on my part.)
These were some pretty battered people by that time.

Relapse wrote:
These were some pretty battered people by that time.

I mean, that was pretty much life back then. The Jews did their fair share of battering early on.

These threads fascinate me, I honestly don't understand how normally sensible and logical, well read and seemingly very intelligent people turn into mad fethers when it comes to Religion! People that are lucid and logical and that would be sceptical of any claim a peddler might make to them despite his apparent evidence seem to become gullible to a ridiculous extreme when matters of theology come into play.

Ill never understand it, but It doesn't fill me with the rage it once did. I'm just left scratching my head in perplexity.

In short, if God regrows some fethers leg on CNN ill start to believe, but most of the gak in this thread is outrageously simple to take with a fist full of salt.

dogma wrote:

Relapse wrote:
These were some pretty battered people by that time.

I mean, that was pretty much life back then. The Jews did their fair share of battering early on.

You might mean later on. Immediately after the plagues in Egypt there was the conquest of the promised land which, from the perspective of anyone but the jewish people themselves, came across as an earlier version of the Mongol invasions. Don't let that whole thing about being conquered by several different civilisations fool you, back in their day the Israelites were scary fethers to say the least.

sirlynchmob wrote:Plus as was pointed out in another thread, the Chinese are still proof there was no biblical flood.

If I'm not mistaken the Bible uses the term 'world' not 'planet'. World is subjective, especially in ancient times when it takes place. Things like this needs to be seen in the context of the society that witnessed it, not in modern terms.

Luco wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:Plus as was pointed out in another thread, the Chinese are still proof there was no biblical flood.

If I'm not mistaken the Bible uses the term 'world' not 'planet'. World is subjective, especially in ancient times when it takes place. Things like this needs to be seen in the context of the society that witnessed it, not in modern terms.

Since the only people that survived the alledged flood would be Noah and whoever was fortunate enough to be on his Ark, you're kind of grasping at straws here.

Mannahnin wrote:I think you're confusing communism with socialism.

Every modern first world government contains a lot of socialism. We have socialized fire departments, police, roads and highways, militaries, and in most countries socialized medicine.

Early Christians were more communist, though, weren't they? Dismissive of personal possessions, practicing communal ownership. As for Jesus, he focused a lot on the importance of helping the poor, which is a message generally more in line with socialist or communist ideas than with fascist or capitalist.

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:23-24

I dont. Communism is just one form of Socialism, a extreme form. Of course every modern first world government contains a lot of socialism, but every succedfull first world goverment, has more Liberal and at least equal Conservative (the two other political ideologies) elements.

As I said the approach of Communism and Socialism and Christianity to achieve a better world are opposites.