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Well I think they do it because in their beliefs they are a restoration of what Christianity should be. Being 'Christian' is central to their belief system, even if they're beliefs have about as much in common with Christianity as Islam... Meh, that's an exaggeration. The key issue is that many Mormon beliefs are mutual exclusive with basic Christian tenets, which to me makes it impossible for them to be 'Christian' in the same sense that other Christians are 'Christian.'

Its a word game of sorts. Someone's view on this probably varies on whether they considered Mormon groups to be cults too.

Amaya wrote:
"Hell, the Mormons interpret Psalms 82:6 to mean that we are gods while ignoring translation issues and the surrounding verses. "

And then there is this as well.

No, Muslims don’t think that Jesus was the messiah.
Think of it like a movie. The Torrah was the first one, and the New Testament was the sequel. Then the Qu’ran comes out and it retcons the second one like it never happened. There is still Jesus but he isn’t the main character anymore and the messiah hasn’t come yet.
Jews like the first one but ignore the sequels. Christians like the first two but feel the third one doesn’t count. Muslims think that the third one was the best. And Mormons liked the second one so much they started writing fan fiction that doesn’t fit ANY of the series canon.

Think of it like a movie. The Torrah was the first one, and the New Testament was the sequel. Then the Qu’ran comes out and it retcons the second one like it never happened. There is still Jesus but he isn’t the main character anymore and the messiah hasn’t come yet.
Jews like the first one but ignore the sequels. Christians like the first two but feel the third one doesn’t count. Muslims think that the third one was the best. And Mormons liked the second one so much they started writing fan fiction that doesn’t fit ANY of the series canon.

That may well be the greatest Abrahamic religions metaphor of all time

I tip my hat to you.

LordofHats wrote:
There's a reason I've argued that Mormon's are not Christians and it has nothing to do with bigotry. They're theological beliefs have some seriously radical differences with other Christian denominations that I think Mormonism needs to be reclassified as a Abrahamic branch rather than a Christian denomination.

My nine Christian wives say that's poppycock.

Amaya wrote:

LordofHats wrote:Jewish scholars lament the addition of Jehova, a word that doesn't not exist in the OT, to the New World Version of the Bible (Produced by the Latter Day Saints), declared to otherwise be one of the most accurate and well done English translations, baring certain radical alterations.

There's a reason I've argued that Mormon's are not Christians and it has nothing to do with bigotry. They're theological beliefs have some seriously radical differences with other Christian denominations that I think Mormonism needs to be reclassified as a Abrahamic branch rather than a Christian denomination.

Yeah, they are undoubtedly an Abrahamic religion, but the whole recent "Mormons are Christians' deal is just a PR thing to gain mainstream acceptance. It really doesn't make sense to me, why can't you be proud of your beliefs? Why do you feel the need to piggyback onto Christianity and go from being a separate religion to just being another denomination?

We've always considered ourselves as Chistians. I don't get what you mean by the whole "recent Mormons are Christians deal". The actual name of the church is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

dogma wrote:

LordofHats wrote:
There's a reason I've argued that Mormon's are not Christians and it has nothing to do with bigotry. They're theological beliefs have some seriously radical differences with other Christian denominations that I think Mormonism needs to be reclassified as a Abrahamic branch rather than a Christian denomination.

My nine Christian wives say that's poppycock.

Are your nine Christian wives aware of each other?

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Are your nine Christian wives aware of each other?

Nope, nor do they know I'm not Christian.

Is the partner being Christian a mandatory requirement for a Christian to get married?

I imagine it would definitely be an issue if the Christian was devout, there's enough trouble between Catholics and Protestants in my family, but I don't remember if it was impossible for non-Christians to be sacramentally married.

Multiple wives are practiced by a break away group, not part of the LDS church.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Is the partner being Christian a mandatory requirement for a Christian to get married?

I imagine it would definitely be an issue if the Christian was devout, there's enough trouble between Catholics and Protestants in my family, but I don't remember if it was impossible for non-Christians to be sacramentally married.

As with all things religious, it depends on the believer.

Relapse wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Amaya wrote:

LordofHats wrote:Jewish scholars lament the addition of Jehova, a word that doesn't not exist in the OT, to the New World Version of the Bible (Produced by the Latter Day Saints), declared to otherwise be one of the most accurate and well done English translations, baring certain radical alterations.

There's a reason I've argued that Mormon's are not Christians and it has nothing to do with bigotry. They're theological beliefs have some seriously radical differences with other Christian denominations that I think Mormonism needs to be reclassified as a Abrahamic branch rather than a Christian denomination.

Yeah, they are undoubtedly an Abrahamic religion, but the whole recent "Mormons are Christians' deal is just a PR thing to gain mainstream acceptance. It really doesn't make sense to me, why can't you be proud of your beliefs? Why do you feel the need to piggyback onto Christianity and go from being a separate religion to just being another denomination?

We've always considered ourselves as Chistians. I don't get what you mean by the whole "recent Mormons are Christians deal". The actual name of the church is Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
From the time the church originated, all ordinences have been done in the name of Jesus Christ. Prayers are always closed wit "in the name of Jesus Christ."

Just because Jesus Christ features heavily in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not mean that you could accurately label Mormons to be Christian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
This was considered deviant, and dangerously so, so I don't know if Mormons would even be considered Christian.

Then again, there are so many 'Christian' groups in existence that would have normally been considered deviant, radical or outright heretical that it's hard to define what a Christian really is. That used to generally lay within the auspices of the Catholic Church, for the most part, which is clearly not the case now.

Harry, what makes LDS members non christian in your opinion, not Wiki's?

dogma wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:Is the partner being Christian a mandatory requirement for a Christian to get married?

I imagine it would definitely be an issue if the Christian was devout, there's enough trouble between Catholics and Protestants in my family, but I don't remember if it was impossible for non-Christians to be sacramentally married.

As with all things religious, it depends on the believer.

Which would likely be the same thing regarding the definition of 'Christian'.

Who knows dogma, your wives might accurately label you as a Christian, regardless of your personal feelings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote:Harry, what makes LDS members non christian in your opinion, not Wiki's?

I honestly can't say LDS members are or are not Christian. At most you could argue that they would not be considered Christian 1000 or even 500 years ago, but nowadays there's no clear definition on what being a Christian is, and therefore no way to decide whether or not the Latter Day Saints are a Christian sect.

I wouldn't compare Mormonism to Arianism. Arianism was a different view but had plenty in common with the Orthodox views of the time (among others). Arianism spawned from a debate over the nature of Jesus and his relation to God, but otherwise wasn't that different.

The big thing for Mormonism is radically different cosmology and eschatology, as well as a much more colorful(?) view of salvation and redemption than is found in Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant circles.

Yeah, the absence of a belief in the Trinity isn't the real issue when considering whether or not Mormons are Christian. Its part of the overall issues, but its only one part.

Mormonism is actually kind of a throw back to old school Gnosticism when you look at its cosmology, what with the ascension of human souls into god like beings (exaltation), which is actually pretty cool if one finds theology a fascinating subject.

yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

You'd think if you wanted to get rid of any branch of christianity it would be the westboro baptists.

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

.

well than, what is the exact definition for a christian? which of the 42,000 different churches is the right one?

dictionary: " A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings."
Mormons are baptized, and they like baptizing everyone by proxy.
they believe in jesus and his teachings

ergo mormons are christians.
ergo you are wrong again

Believing is Jesus makes a fairly decent mission statement but religion is a little more than answering yes to a critical question. Mormonism has a lot of big breaks from orthodox Christianity. Jews and Muslims both believe in a single undivided god. Are they the same religion? They have more in common with one another than either has with Christianity.

This of course boils down to how one wants to break down a religion. I prefer being as strict as possible but I've seen scholars argue that Mormonism is so intrinsically tied to being Christian that while their beliefs are solidly outside the umbrella of Christianity its impractical to separate them from it. Which I found a reasonable position to hold.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

.

well than, what is the exact definition for a christian? which of the 42,000 different churches is the right one?

dictionary: " A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings."
Mormons are baptized, and they like baptizing everyone by proxy.
they believe in jesus and his teachings

ergo mormons are christians.
ergo you are wrong again

I am not an expert but its my understanding a big difference is 1) they don't believe in the holy trinity; 2) they have additional testaments. Thats a no no.
but if they want to call themselves Christians I'm cool. My only requirement is that you stay the hell off my lawn.

At the same time I have no problem with Mormons. They're great survivalists and we plan to hit them first when Doomsday comes.
"Our experts find your plans to raid all the nearby mormons, coupon savers, and wiener dog pet stores to be innovative, but can't recommend that as a sound strategy."

LordofHats wrote:Believing is Jesus makes a fairly decent mission statement but religion is a little more than answering yes to a critical question. Mormonism has a lot of big breaks from orthodox Christianity. Jews and Muslims both believe in a single undivided god. Are they the same religion? They have more in common with one another than either has with Christianity.

This of course boils down to how one wants to break down a religion. I prefer being as strict as possible but I've seen scholars argue that Mormonism is so intrinsically tied to being Christian that while their beliefs are solidly outside the umbrella of Christianity its impractical to separate them from it. Which I found a reasonable position to hold.

in a sense, yes they all worship the same god. Which when speaking of the right religion, why isn't everyone switching to islam? why wouldn't everyone want to be following gods latest messenger?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

.

well than, what is the exact definition for a christian? which of the 42,000 different churches is the right one?

dictionary: " A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings."
Mormons are baptized, and they like baptizing everyone by proxy.
they believe in jesus and his teachings

ergo mormons are christians.
ergo you are wrong again

I am not an expert but its my understanding a big difference is 1) they don't believe in the holy trinity; 2) they have additional testaments. Thats a no no.
but if they want to call themselves Christians I'm cool. My only requirement is that you stay the hell off my lawn.

At the same time I have no problem with Mormons. They're great survivalists and we plan to hit them first when Doomsday comes.
"Our experts find your plans to raid all the nearby mormons, coupon savers, and wiener dog pet stores to be innovative, but can't recommend that as a sound strategy."

but those new testaments came from god delivered to jon smith. so shouldn't you accept those testaments as well?

sirlynchmob wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

.

well than, what is the exact definition for a christian? which of the 42,000 different churches is the right one?

dictionary: " A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings."
Mormons are baptized, and they like baptizing everyone by proxy.

they believe in jesus and his teachings

ergo mormons are christians.

...and his teachings.

Yeah, it's not like what this might consist of is up for debate at all or anything.

ergo you are wrong again

You have consistently demonstrated either a complete lack of knowledge or an intention to annoy religious Dakka users through deliberate misinterpretations of the bible.

LordofHats wrote:
That may well be the greatest Abrahamic religions metaphor of all time

I tip my hat to you.

I heard a professor say that Muslims think that the Torah was Windows 95, The Bible was Windows 98 and the Quran was Windows 7.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:yes the mormons are christians. As the only requirement to be a christian is "do you accept jesus" if yes you're a christian.

According to you maybe.

And even with your definition, that's pretty shaky. Who exactly does that (extraordinarily large) definition encompass? Really, as usual you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

.

well than, what is the exact definition for a christian? which of the 42,000 different churches is the right one?

dictionary: " A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings."
Mormons are baptized, and they like baptizing everyone by proxy.

they believe in jesus and his teachings

ergo mormons are christians.

...and his teachings.

Yeah, it's not like what this might consist of is up for debate at all or anything.

ergo you are wrong again

You have consistently demonstrated either a complete lack of knowledge or an intention to annoy religious Dakka users through deliberate misinterpretations of the bible.

so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?

sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?

Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.

Harry, Mormons are Christians to most people. They're the weirder Christians (Like the Scientologists of the Jesus Cult) but still Christians.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?

Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.

well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?

sirlynchmob wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?

Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.

well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?

You keep stating you're right, when the only sources you have are two people you may or may not know.

So how black is the kettle, anyway?

sirlynchmob wrote:
well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct.

Proof? What are you talking about? I've said that people will interpret the bible to mean different things. Do you really need proof for that?

And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?

Not being a Christian myself, I might be a little biased there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:
So how black is the kettle, anyway?