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sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.
well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?
You keep stating you're right, when the only sources you have are two people you may or may not know.
So how black is the kettle, anyway?
ducking the question again eh? I win by default and you fail at reading, more proof I am right.
I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
Frazzled wrote:1) they don't believe in the holy trinity
They believe in the Trinity, though they do break from the Nicene version. It works like this:
Orthodox Christians: God = Son = Father = Holy Spirit, all one being who exists in three forms (aka soft monotheism)
Mormonism: God = Son, Father, and Holy Spirit, individual members of a single god head with united purpose/will (aka super soft monotheism)
Its a difference with big implications but at the end of the day its not really that different.
sirlynchmob wrote:in a sense, yes they all worship the same god. Which when speaking of the right religion, why isn't everyone switching to islam? why wouldn't everyone want to be following gods latest messenger?
Not sure what that has to do with anything... My point was that saying I believe in Jesus may at first glance scream 'Christian' but if I have some wonky faith where I believe Jesus is a cyborg ninja from the future who came back in time to save us from our sins when we destroy the world in 2012 by teaching us the break dance, can I really be called 'Christian.' The point being that believing in Jesus Christ is to broad a standard by which to classify religion as 'Christian' on its own, especially since the beliefs of Christianity while varied are generally uniform across the major division. Mostly the difference between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism isn't one of theology but of practice and Church organization.
but those new testaments came from god delivered to jon smith. so shouldn't you accept those testaments as well?
Not if one thinks John Smith is a liar who wanted to use restoration religion to get in the sack with more than one woman at a time.
mattyrm wrote: I heard a professor say that Muslims think that the Torah was Windows 95, The Bible was Windows 98 and the Quran was Windows 7.
I'm guessing Ba'Hai was Windows Vista and Zorastrianism is MS-DOS?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/09 14:02:50
sirlynchmob wrote:
I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
You don't personally know 60 Christians.
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
sirlynchmob wrote:
I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
You don't personally know 60 Christians.
And you are wrong again. Are you sure you're a christian?
sirlynchmob wrote: so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.
well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?
You keep stating you're right, when the only sources you have are two people you may or may not know.
So how black is the kettle, anyway?
ducking the question again eh? I win by default and you fail at reading, more proof I am right. I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
Dude, I agree with you! I believe that Mormons are Christians. However, this is more of a gut feeling than anything else, as I have no proof to back up my statements.
You, on the other hand, say you have proof, and when you're proof is rejected, you go ahead and attack us. And now you say you have more proof! So post it. Post your proof from a silly book written by a bunch of crazy old men over thousands of years in which there are many contradictions and impossibilities.
Read before you post, mate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/09 14:04:51
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
sirlynchmob wrote:
I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
You don't personally know 60 Christians.
And you are wrong again. Are you sure you're a christian?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Not being a Christian myself, I might be a little biased there.
Come on, mate, save face while you can.
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.
well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?
You keep stating you're right, when the only sources you have are two people you may or may not know.
So how black is the kettle, anyway?
ducking the question again eh? I win by default and you fail at reading, more proof I am right.
I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
Dude, I agree with you! I believe that Mormons are Christians. However, this is more of a gut feeling than anything else, as I have no proof to back up my statements.
You, on the other hand, say you have proof, and when you're proof is rejected, you go ahead and attack us. And now you say you have more proof! So post it. Post your proof from a silly book written by a bunch of crazy old men over thousands of years in which there are many contradictions and impossibilities.
Read before you post, mate.
sorry, I didn't notice you jump in there.
But thats not quite what is happening. I state what I read the bible to mean, people like harry just say, no your wrong and throw in some personal insult to me. so after being attacked myself, I see no reason to not attack back.
You did not state an opinion, you argued definitively that Mormons are definitely Christians, and that to be Christian you only have to "accept jesus".
Don't try to pass yourself off as the victim here, you've posited ridiculous stances (such a God being pro-choice) before and it's clear you don't read other people's posts.
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide.
sirlynchmob wrote: so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Strawman, and a poor one at that. I never claimed to have the undisputed definition of what it means to be Christian. I've only claimed that you certainly don't. And, coming from an Irish family, the fact that you have 2 Christian friends means less than nothing.
well you keep asserting I'm wrong, while offering no proof for why I'm supposed to be wrong. Nor even offering up any proof for why you think you are correct. And you still didn't answer the question, is the bible just a book of metaphors, or literally true?
You keep stating you're right, when the only sources you have are two people you may or may not know.
So how black is the kettle, anyway?
ducking the question again eh? I win by default and you fail at reading, more proof I am right. I said for any anything you think you are right about, I can find 2 others to say you are wrong. so if you are sure about 30 things in the bible, I can find 60 to say you are wrong.
Dude, I agree with you! I believe that Mormons are Christians. However, this is more of a gut feeling than anything else, as I have no proof to back up my statements.
You, on the other hand, say you have proof, and when you're proof is rejected, you go ahead and attack us. And now you say you have more proof! So post it. Post your proof from a silly book written by a bunch of crazy old men over thousands of years in which there are many contradictions and impossibilities.
Read before you post, mate.
sorry, I didn't notice you jump in there.
But thats not quite what is happening. I state what I read the bible to mean, people like harry just say, no your wrong and throw in some personal insult to me. so after being attacked myself, I see no reason to not attack back.
I think the issue is more that you appear to be stating it more like it's a fact, rather than an opinion.
If you phrased it differently and didn't be so aggressive, I think Harry wouldn't be on your ass.
Is this true, Harry?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/09 14:29:25
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
Hazardous Harry wrote:You did not state an opinion, you argued definitively that Mormons are definitely Christians, and that to be Christian you only have to "accept jesus".
Don't try to pass yourself off as the victim here, you've posited ridiculous stances (such a God being pro-choice) before and it's clear you don't read other people's posts.
god is pro choice (in some situations), that's already been agreed to between LordofHats and I.
I post the dictionary definition for christians which indicates to me that christians include mormons. you say 'debatable' and accuse me of
Hazardous Harry wrote:
"You have consistently demonstrated either a complete lack of knowledge or an intention to annoy religious Dakka users through deliberate misinterpretations of the bible. "
and again you say my stances are ridiculous, yet offer no proof for my position being invalid in any way. so if the dictionary is wrong about the definition of christian, what is the correct definition?
god is pro choice (in some situations), that's already been agreed to between LordofHats and I.
Not really. Being okay with abortion isn't the same thing as being pro-choice. The woman isn't exactly getting a choice in Numbers 5. The man of the house walks up to her and says 'this is how its going to be' which is pretty anti-pro-choice. Now, maybe this ritual was abused by women of the time to get abortions, but I find that unlikely, and abusing it probably isn't cool with the G-man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/09 14:29:30
of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
Mormons have a religion based off of the Teachings of Jesus (And Joseph Smith, to a lesser extent).
You could have just used that SirLynchMob, instead of using a strawman argument.
What strawman?
sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
Mormons have a religion based off of the Teachings of Jesus (And Joseph Smith, to a lesser extent).
You could have just used that SirLynchMob, instead of using a strawman argument.
What strawman?
sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Thats not a strawman. A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
I never misrepresented his position, I asked him to clarify it.
of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
Mormons have a religion based off of the Teachings of Jesus (And Joseph Smith, to a lesser extent).
You could have just used that SirLynchMob, instead of using a strawman argument.
What strawman?
sirlynchmob wrote:
so you speak for god then? you have the undisputed bible? your interpretation is the only one that is valid? For everything you think you are right about, I can find 2 other christians who will gladly tell you your wrong. so help me understand then, is the bible a book of metaphors or the literal historical works of god, divinely inspired and 100% true?
Thats not a strawman. A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
I never misrepresented his position, I asked him to clarify it.
Look, buddy, I don't know what a Strawman actually is. I'm a 16 year old English Major hopeful.
Harry called it one, so I assumed he was right. I'm just trying to calm the two of you down, to stop you from doing something really stupid as well as giving a bit of input.
Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats.
@Lordofhats, actually they don't believe in the Trinity. Christian belief in the Trinity is centered around the belief that they are a single entity. Mormons believe that they are separate entities.
The LDS church teaches some really unorthodox doctrine. Things like.. man can become gods, God the father had sexual intercourse with Mary to produce Jesus, good mormons will gain a planet after after they die and have perpetual spirit babies after they themselves become gods.
Those are just a few of their teachings and those teachings are not what was taught by the apostles.
Amaya wrote:@Lordofhats, actually they don't believe in the Trinity. Christian belief in the Trinity is centered around the belief that they are a single entity. Mormons believe that they are separate entities.
Hence (one reason) why I don't consider them Christians. They believe in the Trinity, but their Trinity is not the one that is pretty much universal to all modern Christians who aren't Mormons. It's a complicated and confusing dynamic, but Mormon's are not polytheists (but then all Christians have been accused of Polytheism by Mulsims and Jews). They believe in a singular god in three forms, but the dynamic of the three is very different in Mormonism than in mainstream Christianity.
Mainstream Christianity: God has three forms. A single undivided entity that takes three forms.
Mormonism: God is three persons. Think of this one as a sort of hivemind god (that's how I think of it). The three are useless on their own. They're godhead only exists as a unit.
The Mormon one actually makes a lot more logical sense than the mainstream one, to the extent that an all powerful ever present creator entity can make logical sense. Mainstream Christian doctrine preaches a god who is undivided and yet is divided which is why I encourage those here not to think about it too much because it will hurt your brain on the inside.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/09 16:34:24
Imagine you had never heard of either christians or mormons, now your walking down a street and on one corner is a christian trying to gain followers, on the opposite corner a mormon. which side would you listen to? according to that video chrstianity is an abomination as decreed by god and the mormon points that while on his corner. They both believe in jesus and the bible.
now when it comes to an afterlife, christians get to hang out with god and praise him or burn in hell for eternity, if mormons are right (based on the video) you'll be castrated, while they get to have lots of sex.
Can either side prove their claims? nope
can either side prove the other wrong? nope
could either side be right? maybe (but my money is on their both wrong)
If Mitt Romney wasn't running would this have even of been a topic worth discussing? probably not
They both claim to be christians and by the broad definition in the dictionary, they both are.
If you want to get into what tenets to follow, then you could also say that 1/2 of the christian churches are not christian either. Then you just left with the "no true christian (I mean Scotsman) fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
now imagine if there were also people representing hinduism, islam, judaism, shinto, sikhism, jainism, bahai, cao dai, cheondoism, tenrikyo, wicca, and anyone I forgot How could you rationally choose one religion over another?
No True Scotsmen is a fallacy of rhetoric. If one can put up a reasoned argument that Mormons are not Christians, and many people have in the last 100 years, then it's not a NTS. If anything your arguing from a position of reverse NTS which I think has an actual name but I can't remember it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/09 18:16:27
sirlynchmob wrote:If Mitt Romney wasn't running would this have even of been a topic worth discussing? probably not
Except all those books and discussions that happened long before Mitt Romney seem to say that people would still talk about it.
sirlynchmob wrote:now imagine if there were also people representing hinduism, islam, judaism, shinto, sikhism, jainism, bahai, cao dai, cheondoism, tenrikyo, wicca, and anyone I forgot How could you rationally choose one religion over another?
There are people that represent those religions, in as much as there are people that practice them. You choose a religion the same way you choose Atheism. As an individual something about the system, or lack of system, makes sense to you.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I'll start by saying that I do believe Joseph Smith was in fact a prophet. If he was in the game for an easy life, he picked the wrong profession, since during his life he was tarred and feathered, beaten, had his children die due to mob violence, jailed numerous times, and finally martyred by a mob while in prison.
Ahtman wrote:You choose a religion the same way you choose Atheism. As an individual something about the system, or lack of system, makes sense to you.
I like this. That's how i chose Apatheism.
1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
1500pts