Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46976858/ns/world_news-venezuela/#.T387haN5mSM

Didn't think I'd see this from Chavez. I guess facing the potential end does that to some people, putting them heavily into tune with death bed repentence.

Stragnely enough neither my mom nor my dad said anything stupid like that. Of course they had something called character.

I don't think yourparents had the baggage he's going to have to answer for. I don't think I'd have cared to. Meet Jesus either in some of the more unsavory times in my life.

Chavez never had a healthy relationship with reality.

You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

It sounds like an interesting story, with the dead man. I had an uncle that died on the operating table and came back to life.
He remembered what he saw. This could be a topic for a new thread.

Relapse wrote:I guess facing the potential end does that to some people, putting them heavily into tune with death bed repentence.

What is is he repenting for? As far as I know he's not an atheist, and its highly unlikely he's anything except a Christian. Yeah, he's a socialist and there were a couple attempts to overthrow him, but the coup is long respected tradition of Latin American politics; especially against socialists. The only reason Chavez has held power is due to his ties to the military, most socialist politicians in Latin America were/are disaffected members of the middle class.

Is it the elimination of term limits that is odious?

Frazzled wrote:Stragnely enough neither my mom nor my dad said anything stupid like that. Of course they had something called character.

My missus family is pretty Religious (obviously shes American!) not hugely, but far more than anything Ive seen with mine. Anyway, they are Catholic, and her Moms brother told me that he went to see their sick like, 102 year old grandmother and he she was being blase about death as many people that age are and said something like "Ah, Ive lived too long already, It will be a relief to finally go" and he said to her "Oh you will get to go see Grandpa soon huh?" and she went "Pah! I don't believe in any of that stupid gak!"

Made me laugh anyway.. I think its the way he (a relatively devout Catholic) told it!

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

No you havent. And Major healings have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus and god dont heal anyone because they ask for it or pray a lot. What kind of unjust world or god would that be?

Dark Scipio wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

No you havent. And Major healings have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus and god dont heal anyone because they ask for it or pray a lot. What kind of unjust world or god would that be?

What gets me is that the vast, vast majority don't get healed yet we're supposed to take someone coming out ahead once in a blue moon like some sort of sign.

I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

What gods did he believe in? Was he Hindu?

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

No you havent. And Major healings have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus and god dont heal anyone because they ask for it or pray a lot. What kind of unjust world or god would that be?

What gets me is that the vast, vast majority don't get healed yet we're supposed to take someone coming out ahead once in a blue moon like some sort of sign.

How much harder must amputees pray?

George Spiggott wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

No you havent. And Major healings have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus and god dont heal anyone because they ask for it or pray a lot. What kind of unjust world or god would that be?

What gets me is that the vast, vast majority don't get healed yet we're supposed to take someone coming out ahead once in a blue moon like some sort of sign.

How much harder must amputees pray?

Last I checked God is not a vending machine in any faith. A prayer is a request, not a dollar to get a soda. Some will be healed, some will not be. For some their time is up and its time to go home, for others there is time left or are granted extra time. For some the suffering will help them grow in mind and spirit. I may not necessarily be a fan of what I've gone through personally with clinical depression, but I cannot deny that it has certainly caused me to grow. I suppose this is difficult to understand if you believe solely in the flesh and not in the spirit.

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

Raised from the dead?

How long was he "technically dead for"

who was their to confirm he was dead?

I've met many people who claim they were dead, near dead or ill and have all be cured or saved by modern medicine but say it was God that saved them.

Mannahnin wrote:

I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

What gods did he believe in? Was he Hindu?

No he wasnt a Hindu, oddly enough he wasn't a professing Christian either.
In any event if you look at near-death experiences most dovetail with Christian theology, even if the witness is not a Christian. One figure I remember was 98% correlation, though this includeds hell expereiences. Though I cannot remember where I read this it might have been from Visions Beyond the Veil.

Piston Honda wrote:
Raised from the dead?
How long was he "technically dead for"
who was their to confirm he was dead?

I met Ian at the beginning of his ministry not long after his fateful holiday in Mauritius.
http://www.near-death.com/mccormack.html
There were plenty of witnesses to the event and he was stung several times by a box jellyfish/sea wasp and normally once is enough.

Piston Honda wrote:
I've met many people who claim they were dead, near dead or ill and have all be cured or saved by modern medicine but say it was God that saved them.

Once someone is dead it may not just be up to the doctors if he can come back. Many witnesses say they were sent back, this begs the question of what happens if they are claimed, we wont know because we dont get those ones coming back. This by default suggests some might have been revivable but God says, 'No. times up'.

George Spiggott wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You may be surprised what reality can deal you if you have a little faith. Major healings are rare but not unknown, I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

It took balls, or raw desperation, to make that appeal openly as a politician. I have to give Chavez some credit for that.

No you havent. And Major healings have nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus and god dont heal anyone because they ask for it or pray a lot. What kind of unjust world or god would that be?

What gets me is that the vast, vast majority don't get healed yet we're supposed to take someone coming out ahead once in a blue moon like some sort of sign.

How much harder must amputees pray?

Its not a matter of praying harder, one prayer might be enough for any intervention, or a thousand might go unanswered. What it requires is more faith, in such cases too much faith for most.

I only know of one case of an amputee regrowing a limb, that miracle was performed through Smith Wigglesworth in the late 19th century and was reported at the time. Wigglesworth was a most unusual man. He raised several people from the dead (IIRC fourteen) including his wife, who asked him to let her die again as she felt her time was come.

I have only witnessed one miracles, unless you count cross referenced prophesy or tongues, which happen all the time.

Piston Honda wrote:I've met many people who claim they were dead, near dead or ill and have all be cured or saved by modern medicine but say it was God that saved them.

The answer is obvious.

Science is God.

Well, Jesus was a socialist.

Orlanth wrote:I only know of one case of an amputee regrowing a limb, that miracle was performed through Smith Wigglesworth in the late 19th century and was reported at the time. Wigglesworth was a most unusual man. He raised several people from the dead (IIRC fourteen) including his wife, who asked him to let her die again as she felt her time was come.

That sounds like a reputable story.

In short,

other than another "I was dead people saw me die and I was an atheist until I saw God now send me money and buy this"

the healing and miracles of god seem to be bound by logic and reasoning. This makes god seem a bit prosaic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Piston Honda wrote:I've met many people who claim they were dead, near dead or ill and have all be cured or saved by modern medicine but say it was God that saved them.

The answer is obvious.

Science is God.

Ha!

after I had surgery in my left eye, my surgeon told me I was the first person in the 20 some years of his entire practice to thank him and not god.


If science is god, then god is expensive.

LoneLictor wrote:Well, Jesus was a socialist.

No. Jesus was the first Christian.

While on the first view Christians and Socialist might share a lot on the first view in fact they are nearly opposites.

Christian religion focus on the individual to be a better person, not political but ethical. A Christ should try to become good, no matter how bad the others are.

Socialist Ideology focus on the society to be better, not ethical but political. A Socialist should try to make the soicety good, no matter how.

Thats why Christian religion is good for society when its performed as Jesus intended it and Socialism is bad for the society because it always leads to oppression.

I think you're confusing communism with socialism.

Every modern first world government contains a lot of socialism. We have socialized fire departments, police, roads and highways, militaries, and in most countries socialized medicine.

Early Christians were more communist, though, weren't they? Dismissive of personal possessions, practicing communal ownership. As for Jesus, he focused a lot on the importance of helping the poor, which is a message generally more in line with socialist or communist ideas than with fascist or capitalist.

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:23-24

Yeah, Jesus helped the poor for free. And he told rich people they'd have a harder time getting into heaven.

That doesn't sound very Republican to me.

Let's not draw too close comparisons between people living two thousand years ago and modern political parties. The Republicans weren't around then. And even a hundred years ago they were very, very different from the party they are today.

The thing to remember is that God's house is a house of order. The comment that God is not a soft drink machine, providing goods orservices on request at all times is totaly on the mark.
If everybody got everything they asked for, whatever the request would lead to chaos and a planet of spoiled child types.
We weren't put on this planet to become pampered pets. We were put here to prove to God and ourselves the type of people we are and to become strong and worthy heirs to his kingdom.
A lot of times this growth comes from being willing to help others or be helped ourselves rather than sitting back waiting for God to step in and take care of something we could have ourselves.

Relapse wrote:The thing to remember is that God's house is a house of order.

Anything but this, given the Christian god's actions in the bible-- said deity goes around upsetting the natural order, creating chaos and destruction, constantly and consistently.

Melissia wrote:

Relapse wrote:The thing to remember is that God's house is a house of order.

Anything but this, given the Christian god's actions in the bible-- said deity goes around upsetting the natural order, creating chaos, constantly and consistently.

I disagree. It's always people that take something God gave them and screw it up, requiring him to take charge either himself or through the actions of inspired mortals.

True Story.

Relapse wrote:I disagree.

Turning water in to wine.
Frogs falling from the sky.
Walking on water.
A rain of fire.
Parting an ocean.
Creating a horde of locusts out of nothing.

Yep, that's violating the natural world right there. Certainly no "house of order" here

By its very nature, by its very DEFINITION, the supernatural violates the natural order.

Melissia wrote:

Relapse wrote:I disagree.

Turning water in to wine.
Frogs falling from the sky.
Walking on water.
A rain of fire.
Parting an ocean.
Creating a horde of locusts out of nothing.

Yep, that's violating the natural world right there. Certainly no "house of order" here

How do you give someone a warning, do you whisper or make some kind of display or noise to catch their attention? T o tell the truth, there are historical precedents for some of those things you mentioned.

The Siberian meteor/astroid that flattened trees for miles around andkilledherds of animals must have seemed like fire from the sky.
Frogs, fish, and other thigs have fallen from the sky courtesty of water spouts in different parts of the world.
Who is to say the locusts were created out of nothing? Locusts can be a common thing in many regions of the world.
I've heard it speculated that a localized earthquake might have caused the Red Sea to part.
As for the other things, I strongly think our current level of science hasn't caught up with yet, unless you're suggesting we know all there is to know about nature and pysics, but I don't really believe you are.

Relapse wrote:How do you give someone a warning, do you whisper or make some kind of display or noise to catch their attention?

Usually just a strong verbal cue works. But these weren't "warnings", they were the deity being a mass murderer.