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Was it mass murder or divine justice on what could possibly have been that ages equivalent of the Manson Family? Remember the Jewish children that were put to death along with the abuses the Jews were going through.
I'd dare say if your friends or family were going through the things they did you'd be in a froth.
What would you think if an order went out to put the oldest male child of all gay parents to death because of the risk a single cild of that generation posed to the established order?

Relapse wrote:Was it mass murder or divine justice

Yes, we've had court cases where people said they were doing god's work or that god told them to murder people.

Those didn't exactly end well for people using that excuse.

Melissia wrote:

Relapse wrote:Was it mass murder or divine justice

Yes, we've had court cases where people said they were doing god's work or that god told them to murder people.

Those didn't exactly end well for people using that excuse.

Those people weren't God with his perfect view of things.

Relapse wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Relapse wrote:Was it mass murder or divine justice

Yes, we've had court cases where people said they were doing god's work or that god told them to murder people.

Those didn't exactly end well for people using that excuse.

Those people weren't God with his perfect view of things.

The Christian god's purported (and unproven) "perfect view" shouldn't exempt them from morality.

Melisia, Do you really think these people were commanded by God to kill someone?
You're in an area now where there has to be a consideration of circumstances and the people involved to differentiate between genuine revelation and psycosis or even Satanic influence.

Relapse wrote:Melisia, Do you really think these people were commanded by God to kill someone?

Do you really believe it matters?

If someone tells you to kill, that doesn't make it right.

Melissia wrote:

Relapse wrote:Melisia, Do you really think these people were commanded by God to kill someone?

Do you really believe it matters?

If someone tells you to kill, that doesn't make it right.

Once again, it depends on circumstance. I leave to your knowledge of history and crimes commited to realize the justifications for killing someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm really enjoying this discussion with you, but duty calls and I have to go. If you'd like, we can pick this up later.
I like talking to you, because you really make me think through positions I hold that I otherwise take for granted.

Relapse wrote:Once again, it depends on circumstance. I leave to your knowledge of history and crimes commited to realize the justifications for killing someone.

If someone were to go in to a prison and kill everyone there, they'd still be a mass murderer.

But even that is arguably better than killing all of the innocent children and infants of Sodom with a rain of fire.

People actually think the destruction of Sodom happened?

I'm speaking hypothetically as if it were.

But the answer is yes.

Dark Scipio wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:Well, Jesus was a socialist.

No. Jesus was the first Christian.

While on the first view Christians and Socialist might share a lot on the first view in fact they are nearly opposites.

Christian religion focus on the individual to be a better person, not political but ethical. A Christ should try to become good, no matter how bad the others are.

Socialist Ideology focus on the society to be better, not ethical but political. A Socialist should try to make the soicety good, no matter how.

Thats why Christian religion is good for society when its performed as Jesus intended it and Socialism is bad for the society because it always leads to oppression.

psst, Jesus was a jew.

From my own experiences ymmv: if anything he was a volunteer socialist. He would give everything he had to those who needed it. Yet most christians today have a very bad attitude towards those who need government assistance, they don't even like their tax dollars to be used to help people, go figure.

Pfff.... check out statistics on Christian charities vs. Atheist ones.

Christians do their own giving, to the right people. It's the system we do not want to buy into.

Melissia wrote:I'm speaking hypothetically as if it were.

But the answer is yes.

You know that there is a significant portion of Christians who believe that it's just a story?

No non-Christian should believe that anything before 1st Kings is anything but a story and there's not really solid evidence to support most of the Bible.

In context, the Old Testament is simply a history of ancient Hebrews and the actions of their God. It is really no different than many ancient histories in that it is based on the belief that a deity or deities has significant involvement in historical events. There are many stories in the OT that exist simply to show God's power, Sodom and Gomorrah being one of them.

It was written in a time when life was cheap and not exactly valued very highly. In particular Hebrews lacked respect for Gentiles and did not value them highly at all. It's only natural that in the cultural context oral traditions would emerge in which their enemies were destroyed entirely without any form of modern remorse or compassion.

Assuming it did happen, well then Yahweh is a jerk.

Assuming it's just a story than all it shows lack of compassion for foreigners, punishment for the wicked, God's willingness to forgive those who ask it, and God's power.

In all likelihood it's probably just an explanation for a natural disaster. I think the prevailing theory is that a landslide wiped out those 'cities' and that they were located in a valley, perhaps in the Jordan River valley.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Pfff.... check out statistics on Christian charities vs. Atheist ones.

Christians do their own giving, to the right people. It's the system we do not want to buy into.

very jesus like of you, you just donate to the right people. You realize how bigoted that sounds?

Amaya wrote:You know that there is a significant portion of Christians who believe that it's just a story?

Yes, I know. There is also a non-insignificant portion of Christians who believe that it actually happened.

nice try, Troll. That's not what I said.

I donate to my church (and special cases that I verify myself) which handles what causes get the money. We get it to the people that actually NEED it. Not people that just have the hand-out budgeted into their spending so their money goes to other things.

Surely you don't believe there aren't people that work the welfare system?

Melissia wrote:

Amaya wrote:You know that there is a significant portion of Christians who believe that it's just a story?

Yes, I know. There is also a non-insignificant portion of Christians who believe that it actually happened.

There's also people that believe vampires are real. Attacking an entire population because a portion of it believes mythology is true is pointless.

Amaya wrote:Attacking an entire population

The attack you believe happened was also mythological, not real.

In all likelihood it's probably just an explanation for a natural disaster. I think the prevailing theory is that a landslide wiped out those 'cities' and that they were located in a valley, perhaps in the Jordan River valley.

Please. I watch the history channel. I know what happened!



The history channel. Where the truth, is history

Amaya wrote:

Melissia wrote:I'm speaking hypothetically as if it were.

But the answer is yes.

You know that there is a significant portion of Christians who believe that it's just a story?

No non-Christian should believe that anything before 1st Kings is anything but a story and there's not really solid evidence to support most of the Bible.

In context, the Old Testament is simply a history of ancient Hebrews and the actions of their God. It is really no different than many ancient histories in that it is based on the belief that a deity or deities has significant involvement in historical events. There are many stories in the OT that exist simply to show God's power, Sodom and Gomorrah being one of them.

It was written in a time when life was cheap and not exactly valued very highly. In particular Hebrews lacked respect for Gentiles and did not value them highly at all. It's only natural that in the cultural context oral traditions would emerge in which their enemies were destroyed entirely without any form of modern remorse or compassion.

Assuming it did happen, well then Yahweh is a jerk.

Assuming it's just a story than all it shows lack of compassion for foreigners, punishment for the wicked, God's willingness to forgive those who ask it, and God's power.

In all likelihood it's probably just an explanation for a natural disaster. I think the prevailing theory is that a landslide wiped out those 'cities' and that they were located in a valley, perhaps in the Jordan River valley.

Amaya what you are stating about the old testament is highly assumptional, and quite frankly very opinionated. There are many historical places, peoples in the Bible that were assumed to be "myths&legends" but due to archeology have turned out to be true. Archeology is one field of science that has been very beneficial to providing evidence for the historicity of the Bible.

GG

SlaveToDorkness wrote:nice try, Troll. That's not what I said.

I donate to my church (and special cases that I verify myself) which handles what causes get the money. We get it to the people that actually NEED it. Not people that just have the hand-out budgeted into their spending so their money goes to other things.

Surely you don't believe there aren't people that work the welfare system?

so what? because a very small portion abuse the system, everyone should be denied the help they need?

http://yashwata.info/2010/07/15/charity1/
The myth of Christian charity (part 1)







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generalgrog wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Melissia wrote:I'm speaking hypothetically as if it were.

But the answer is yes.

You know that there is a significant portion of Christians who believe that it's just a story?

No non-Christian should believe that anything before 1st Kings is anything but a story and there's not really solid evidence to support most of the Bible.

In context, the Old Testament is simply a history of ancient Hebrews and the actions of their God. It is really no different than many ancient histories in that it is based on the belief that a deity or deities has significant involvement in historical events. There are many stories in the OT that exist simply to show God's power, Sodom and Gomorrah being one of them.

It was written in a time when life was cheap and not exactly valued very highly. In particular Hebrews lacked respect for Gentiles and did not value them highly at all. It's only natural that in the cultural context oral traditions would emerge in which their enemies were destroyed entirely without any form of modern remorse or compassion.

Assuming it did happen, well then Yahweh is a jerk.

Assuming it's just a story than all it shows lack of compassion for foreigners, punishment for the wicked, God's willingness to forgive those who ask it, and God's power.

In all likelihood it's probably just an explanation for a natural disaster. I think the prevailing theory is that a landslide wiped out those 'cities' and that they were located in a valley, perhaps in the Jordan River valley.

Amaya what you are stating about the old testament is highly assumptional, and quite frankly very opinionated. There are many historical places, peoples in the Bible that were assumed to be "myths&legends" but due to archeology have turned out to be true. Archeology is one field of science that has been very beneficial to providing evidence for the historicity of the Bible.

GG

And the train to Hogwarts leaves out of London, there is a London, so there must be a hogwarts. right?

just because they used names of real places does not prove anything in the bible.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:nice try, Troll. That's not what I said.

I donate to my church (and special cases that I verify myself) which handles what causes get the money. We get it to the people that actually NEED it. Not people that just have the hand-out budgeted into their spending so their money goes to other things.

Surely you don't believe there aren't people that work the welfare system?

If those "welfare queens" can manipulate the US government, they can sure as hell trick some Church into handing them a few bucks.

Amaya wrote:People actually think the destruction of Sodom happened?

Why couldn't it have happened? Cities have been destroyed throughout history in various ways, volcanoes, earthquakes, flooding, invasion, etc. why not fire from the sky?
Earth has been hit by meteors many times, sometimes, as in Siberia at the turn of the last century, with spectacular scales of devastation. If that meteor had hit a city instead of in the wilderness, there wouldn't have been a city there anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

Relapse wrote:Was it mass murder or divine justice on what could possibly have been that ages equivalent of the Manson Family? Remember the Jewish children that were put to death along with the abuses the Jews were going through.
I'd dare say if your friends or family were going through the things they did you'd be in a froth.
What would you think if an order went out to put the oldest male child of all gay parents to death because of the risk a single cild of that generation posed to the established order?

By this logic the entire nation of Germany should have been put to the sword for the abuse the Jewish people suffered. Men, women and children, regardless of political affiliation, rather than the ones actually responsible. Or at least the firstborn son of every German family. The divine god's idea of justice is strangely brutal one.




Also, the statement by Chavez doesn't seem out of place for anyone in his line of faith at all. I honestly don't see what the fuss is.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Relapse wrote:Was it mass murder or divine justice on what could possibly have been that ages equivalent of the Manson Family? Remember the Jewish children that were put to death along with the abuses the Jews were going through.
I'd dare say if your friends or family were going through the things they did you'd be in a froth.
What would you think if an order went out to put the oldest male child of all gay parents to death because of the risk a single cild of that generation posed to the established order?

By this logic the entire nation of Germany should have been put to the sword for the abuse the Jewish people suffered. Men, women and children, regardless of political affiliation, rather than the ones actually responsible. Or at least the firstborn son of every German family. The divine god's idea of justice is strangely brutal one.




Also, the statement by Chavez doesn't seem out of place for anyone in his line of faith at all. I honestly don't see what the fuss is.

There were plenty of good people in Germany. I would hardly call the entirety of the German population simular to the Manson family. As far as the ancient peoples go, I put that forward as hypothosis.

sirlynchmob, read your biased little article. It means nothing without data showing percentages that Churches spend on overhead, which is the basis of their whole argument. Without that it's one long "Nu UHHH!" unless you're predispositioned to believe it. Which is a funny thing for an Atheist to do.

Lonelictor, at least the Church can tell by their Cadillac they're not "in need". Although they will probably get some sort of help.

Relapse, because the Bible said it did. That's all some people need to say it's a lie.

Orlanth wrote:...I once even met a man who was raised from the dead.

Given that you have in all other regards come across as a very reasonable human being, I would, with infinite politeness, suggest that the above statement requires some empirical proof - proof the medical profession would be most interested to assess.

Mannahnin wrote:Let's not draw too close comparisons between people living two thousand years ago and modern political parties. The Republicans weren't around then. And even a hundred years ago they were very, very different from the party they are today.

Technically in Rome there were Republicans two millennia ago, they were the ones who killed Tarquinius. I actually have some common ground with them...

Edit: foolish typo.

Relapse wrote:

Amaya wrote:People actually think the destruction of Sodom happened?

Why couldn't it have happened? Cities have been destroyed throughout history in various ways, volcanoes, earthquakes, flooding, invasion, etc. why not fire from the sky?
Earth has been hit by meteors many times, sometimes, as in Siberia at the turn of the last century, with spectacular scales of devastation. If that meteor had hit a city instead of in the wilderness, there wouldn't have been a city there anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

How exactly would this would have been proof of 'divine justice'? It is highly likely that a settlement called Sodom existed and it was probably destroyed by some natural disaster but I am willing to be one of my arms that there isn't a salty statue of Lot's wife lying outside some brimstone scorched ruins somewhere in the Levant. Given that the 'sins' of Sodom are mostly common place and socially accepted today perhaps the whole world is due for some 'divine justice'?

I wonder how secular, rather than atheist, charities fair when compared overtly christian ones? I wasn't aware that there even was such a thing as an atheist charity, what would be the point given that atheists as a whole are a lot less evangelical?

*Edit*

That's all some people need to say it's a lie.

Not a lie, a myth.

Which is a pretty word for a lie. Atheists don't use too many pretty words for Christians.

Melissia, your hatred and disgust of Christianity has been made apparent multiple times on these boards. We get it, you were raised around a bunch of hard ass fundamentalist pseudo Christians with minimal Biblical knowledge who use their 'religion' as an excuse to be bigots.

Get over it.

GG, perhaps you should actually study the historicity of the Bible, particular the Old Testament before attempting to argue its schematics. Archaeological can not possibly prove that any thing in the Bible happened the way it is recorded. A significant portion of ancient records are extremely biased towards certain viewpoints. Simple reporting of the facts becomes more and more uncommon the farther you go back in history.

There is no evidence that towns named Sodom and Gomorrah existed. Multiple possible candidates exist for where they could have potentially existed, but everything points toward it being a natural disaster that was interpreted by Hebrews as an act of Yahweh because nearly every culture back then interpreted natural disasters as an act of a deity/deities.