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HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

Eveyone already hates WOC... Even WOC players hate WOC

It's true a local WoC player is switching to ogres just so he can be more tactical.

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

I think Liz are 95% fine. Their magic item list will be reimagined. And maybe a few slann abilities will be shifted/changed. And if you're lucky, their huge list of special characters won't be so horrible in return.

But yeah, WoC is silly face and needs to be redone. And when I say that, it's still not the discrepancy of 7th edition. You don't see WoC on the table and go, oh, instant win for them. I think that's an achievement of 8th. The stuff that people can complain about are also the great equalizers, such as mega blocks of cheap infantry and uber spells.

DukeRustfield wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

I think Liz are 95% fine. Their magic item list will be reimagined. And maybe a few slann abilities will be shifted/changed. And if you're lucky, their huge list of special characters won't be so horrible in return.

But yeah, WoC is silly face and needs to be redone. And when I say that, it's still not the discrepancy of 7th edition. You don't see WoC on the table and go, oh, instant win for them. I think that's an achievement of 8th. The stuff that people can complain about are also the great equalizers, such as mega blocks of cheap infantry and uber spells.

This is what I think will happen to LM in the next army book

- Magic List reduced

-TG improved

-Sallies nerfed

-Razzies improved

-Stegs nerfed even harder and some bigger beastie will be introduced...though I think they may have already done the former.

-Fast Cav (maybe we'll see horned ones!)

-????????

-PROFIT!

I predict the return of the thunderlizard.

Carnasour hunting packs say what?

HoverBoy wrote:I predict the return of the thunderlizard.

Oh that would be awesome! Lizzies need bigger monsters. I mean, they are meant to live in a continent filled with monsters, dammit!
I think the EoG used to be an a monster called an arcanodon. Maybe a return of that?

EDIT : LOL at Carnosaur hunting packs. Though I would like to a plastic carny kit...

HoverBoy wrote:I didn't say that but i do say casting 13th into combat is way wrong.

My Ogres love it when they try that.... the gnoblars not so much

What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Oh, ok, I thought it had to do something with 8th ed. breaking them negatively, not flaws within the book itself.

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

Is that supposed to discourage me?

Being able to field units of Allosaurs being ridden by Velociraptors with spears and shields would be too awesome.

-Loki- wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

Is that supposed to discourage me?

Being able to field units of Allosaurs being ridden by Velociraptors with spears and shields would be too awesome.

Just saying, GW won't release something awesome without there being some sort of flaw.
But yeah, carnosaur cavalry would be crazy awesome.

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

The thing about Warriors that people often forget is that they have a lot of hard counters that really ruin their day. Their armies tend to run a few directions and all of them have some terrible matchups. In my opinion, it's a pretty balanced book. Everything is good but you pay for what you get, with the exception of Marauders. In that one case you get a little more than what you paid for. If you simply updated their Lores and added in 8th edition casting rules and types and removed the little BRB blurb about previous edition spells containing all relevant casting parameters they'd be golden.

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

Our magic items are no worse than anyone else's old books items. We have some neat Arcane items, but so does everyone else. The one everyone complains about is Infernal Puppet. It's good, but remember that you already have a miscast coming. This just alters the result by d3. Not even UP TO d3, just whatever the result is. So on 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, it's a non issue because you won't be altering those results unless it's your own miscast. Make it 50 points and keep it, but Cupped Hands / Hell Heart / Becalming etc aren't exactly well thought out either.

I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

Thunderfrog wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

The thing about Warriors that people often forget is that they have a lot of hard counters that really ruin their day. Their armies tend to run a few directions and all of them have some terrible matchups. In my opinion, it's a pretty balanced book. Everything is good but you pay for what you get, with the exception of Marauders. In that one case you get a little more than what you paid for. If you simply updated their Lores and added in 8th edition casting rules and types and removed the little BRB blurb about previous edition spells containing all relevant casting parameters they'd be golden.

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

Our magic items are no worse than anyone else's old books items. We have some neat Arcane items, but so does everyone else. The one everyone complains about is Infernal Puppet. It's good, but remember that you already have a miscast coming. This just alters the result by d3. Not even UP TO d3, just whatever the result is. So on 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, it's a non issue because you won't be altering those results unless it's your own miscast. Make it 50 points and keep it, but Cupped Hands / Hell Heart / Becalming etc aren't exactly well thought out either.

I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

Read the Infernal Puppet entry again-it IS up to D3. It says so specifically in the entry. Also, it works on ALL players-you can affect your enemies miscasts too, thus making them worse. It's good. Broken? No, but very good and fair at 35pts, maybe a tad undercosted (40, perhaps).

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

They don't really die so much to LoShadow due to it's Initiative 5, it's far better than the ogre gutstar, can be buffed even stronger, and unlike ogre's doesn't die so easily to initative save or die! Spells, along with decent ward saves, and a warshrine is cheap enough that everyone takes two where I am.

Not to mention unlike the ogre gutstar, who's main way of being buffed is magic, you only need to roll once, and than roll twice more and get better stuff, that stacks.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

Eveyone already hates WOC... Even WOC players hate WOC

I quite like WoC. My favourite game I played was against WoC...

Dark Elves vs Chaos. At the end of the game both our armies were decimated. Best draw ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thunderfrog wrote:I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

As a Dark Elf player, I agree. With the High Elf ASF special rule they basically get the Dark Elves Eternal Hatred, but better. They get to hit first (even with great weapons) AND re-roll as long as their initiative is equal to or greater than their opponents which for Elves is pretty much always the case.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

They don't really die so much to LoShadow due to it's Initiative 5, it's far better than the ogre gutstar, can be buffed even stronger, and unlike ogre's doesn't die so easily to initative save or die! Spells, along with decent ward saves, and a warshrine is cheap enough that everyone takes two where I am.

Not to mention unlike the ogre gutstar, who's main way of being buffed is magic, you only need to roll once, and than roll twice more and get better stuff, that stacks.

For 305 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ).

For 305 points Ogres get 7 models, 21 wounds, 24 attacks including stomps.

Yes I know.. there's a warshrine. So lets add that in for both sides? 150 points for a Tizz marked shrine. No reason to take any other.

That brings us to this..

For 455 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ), Warshrine rules, and the shrine itself.

For 455 points Ogres now get 10 models ( I went with 430 points for them). Best option for 10 models is a horde, so we have 33 attacks with stomp, possibly Str 6 impact hits, and 30 wounds.

Even i I roll boxcars for my 4+ ward and stubborn, I have to kill Ogres 2 to 1.

At even points, Gutstar horde easily beats out chosen + warshrine. The only way Chosen win is if I get super lucky on the shrine, plus spend extra points on supporting characters and more models. Now I'm at 700 points to your 450. And LoShadow hurts warriors more by dropping their WS and Init than anything else. And there's always the chance of miasma hitting init before casting pit of shades.

Just sayin. Warriors are a balanced book with a few gimicks but a lot of honest builds that counter specific meta's easily. That said, they aren't broke or OP by a long shot.

For 455 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ), Warshrine rules, and the shrine itself.

For 455 points Ogres now get 10 models ( I went with 430 points for them). Best option for 10 models is a horde, so we have 33 attacks with stomp, possibly Str 6 impact hits, and 30 wounds.

Even i I roll boxcars for my 4+ ward and stubborn, I have to kill Ogres 2 to 1.

You'll hit on 3's, wounding on 3+ with halbreds and they'll have no save in order to defend themselves, not to mention hitting first, and they'll be striking back at 5+

You also get 25 attacks (2 attacks per front, 1 attack supporting), so you'll likely deal at least 10-12 wounds, killing off 4 of the Ironguts, decreasing the attacks by 12 ,as well as four stomps.

This isn't counting the contribution from the warshrine as well, considering you may gain S6, T5, and some various other things, I'm not really counting fear either, considering how low the chance is.

Also forgot to calculate the warshrines attacks in as well.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

stuff.

You'll hit on 3's, wounding on 3+ with halbreds and they'll have no save in order to defend themselves, not to mention hitting first, and they'll be striking back at 5+

You also get 25 attacks (2 attacks per front, 1 attack supporting), so you'll likely deal at least 10-12 wounds, killing off 4 of the Ironguts, decreasing the attacks by 12 ,as well as four stomps.

This isn't counting the contribution from the warshrine as well, considering you may gain S6, T5, and some various other things, I'm not really counting fear either, considering how low the chance is.

Also forgot to calculate the warshrines attacks in as well.

I don't know where you get 25 attacks. 15 Warriors with ranks of 5 (the best way to handle 15) Is 5 in front (10 attacks) and 5 supporting. And there's also a 1/6th chance I'm going to get stupid or eye closed, which I cant modify with a block of just Chosen with no characters.

Even assuming I maximise and score every hit and every wound I wouldnt kill enough to reduce your stomps at all, since they only come from your front ranks.

Point is that warriors are not overwhelming. They are good, but everything has a balanced cost, and an Ogre star is FAR more effective than a chosen-star..and much less random.

And there's also a 1/6th chance I'm going to get stupid or eye closed, which I cant modify with a block of just Chosen with no characters.

Chosen continue to re-roll any stupid/closed results until they get a better one due to the Chosen of the Dark Gods rule. If you are speaking of the warshine, you can simply use it again the next turn and gain something new.

I don't know where you get 25 attacks.

My mistake, when you said 10 attacks with 5 supporting, I had thought you meant 10 models in the front, 5 in the back for some odd reason.

I wouldnt kill enoug[h to reduce your stomps at all, since they only come from your front ranks.

Why do stomps bother you regardless, you still have a 4+ save against their S4 hits, not counting the ward save after, it is really only the great weapons that will hurt and due to hitting at 5+ they aren't likely to hit much back at all.

Not to mention if one includes the warshrine, it comes with 5 S4 hits with 3++ ward save added onto the combat with ogres.

This is annoying. Here's the mathhammer before we go any further off topic. I'll even be kind to the warriors and assume they get a flank charge with the Warshrine.

This is as outlined above, with 15 Chosen and their Shrine vs 10 Ogres in horde formation. I'm not counting magic, and I'll toss up the Shrine several different ways. I'm also going Tzeentch mark with Halberds.

Initiative 5

Warshrine -

WS 5 - 5 Attacks - 3.3 Hits - 1.6 wounds with 6+ armor save = 1.34 Wounds

Chosen

WS 6 - 15 Attacks - 9.9 hits - 6.6 wounds no save.

Averaging 2 ogres removed @ 7 or 8 wounds?

Initiative Slow

Gutstar

WS 3 - 24 Attacks - 12 hits - 9.96 wounds with 6+ Tzeentch Ward = 8.37 Wounds.

Stomps - 3 Attacks - 1.5 Wounds with 5+ armor save and 6+ Tzeentch Ward = 1 .02 wounds.


Modifiers


Gutstar gets the charge (assuming less than 10 inches) : 2.15 wounds after ward save.

Warriors get +1T: -1.57 Wounds for the Ogres
Warriors get +1S: +2.2 Wounds for the Warriors and maybe -3 attacks and all that comes with that for the ogres.
Warriors get +1At: Same as above, just about. Math numbers are within .10 of each other.
Warriors get +1Ar: Ogres -1.37 wounds
Warriors get #12: Ogres -2.04 wounds.

Warriors most favorable outcome - +1S and getting the charge and flank = winning by .5 to 1.8 wounds. Having lost 7 models to the Ogres 3, Ogres will be steadfast.

Ogres most favorable outcome - Getting the charge and Chosen having either Eye closed, Stupidity, MR 3 or Ld9. Ogres do 11 wounds to Warriors 8. (Not to mention, if Ogres charge then the warshrine wont be contributing to combat.) Ogres have +1 rank minimum, + 1 charge. Wins combat by 5. Warriors must save on a 3. (A 4 if a Chaos Lord is nearbye.)

Now that thats out of the way, maybe we can quit taking aim at my warriors. =)

Point I was trying to make, again, is that warriors are a balanced book. They have advantages sure, but they fairly pay for them as much or more so than any other books. They do not, point for point, win every matchup they come across.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Why do stomps bother you regardless, you still have a 4+ save against their S4 hits, not counting the ward save after, it is really only the great weapons that will hurt and due to hitting at 5+ they aren't likely to hit much back at all

Chosen have a 4+ armor with halberds. They cant use the shields in CC with a 2 handed weapon.

Chosen are WS 6. Ogres WS3. Ogres still hit on 4's.

Now that thats out of the way, maybe we can quit taking aim at my warriors. =)

Never had a matchup that favorable, but than again I've never faced a chosen stack that wasn't below 500 strong neither with one warshrines and two hellcannons, along with about two to three cheap greatsword khorne hordes backed by two to three sorcerers. Interesting math-hammering there, wish my ogres could get there without the hellcannons beating them down. Or the whole Razor spell, or the fact they can easily eat them with initiative save or die spells, or Infernal gateway, or curse of the leper...

Ever seen an ogre horde die to a S11-12 infernal gateway? It aint pretty.

Point I was trying to make, again, is that warriors are a balanced book. They have advantages sure, but they fairly pay for them as much or more so than any other books. They do not, point for point, win every matchup they come across.

Right-o! Thats why the rest of the book picks up the slack. It's really the combination of the whole that helps considering that the chosens duty is mostly to hold up things that can't effectively break them down and whittle them away.

Though I used the gutstar as a comparison, it was a pretty bad one, the main issue is the combination of factors for WoC, though the mathhammer is quite interesting in that I never knew points to points they would win.

Chosen are WS 6. Ogres WS3. Ogres still hit on 4's.

That explains some of the bad results I was getting to say the least.

Woc isn't balanced. Taking probably the best melee unit in the game, which is the vast "bulk" of what that whole army is about, and comparing them, makes you forget that's simply one tiny element that's in WoC. They got ogres too. And trolls. And dragons. And uber spellcasters. And cheap poundy infantry. And haha you all die spells before anyone in 8th made it fashionable. And useable special characters.

Basically anything that didn't fit directly in the other books was thrown into woc. Not sure how they will nerf it, but I'm pretty positive it will be nerfed some.

Well chosen cause terror so if them ogres fail that fear test...

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

What's the saying bro, you can't wake a man who's pretending to be asleep?

DukeRustfield wrote:Woc isn't balanced. Taking probably the best melee unit in the game, which is the vast "bulk" of what that whole army is about, and comparing them, makes you forget that's simply one tiny element that's in WoC. They got ogres too. And trolls. And dragons. And uber spellcasters. And cheap poundy infantry. And haha you all die spells before anyone in 8th made it fashionable. And useable special characters.

Basically anything that didn't fit directly in the other books was thrown into woc. Not sure how they will nerf it, but I'm pretty positive it will be nerfed some.

The reason most of those are ignored because realistically putting them into a reasonable sized game (lots of reason there) is near impossible. For one the trolls only really work if you take a troll list entirely having small detachments of each thing simply doesn't work. The dragons are a mount for the lord and if I believe so its the most expensive dragon mount out of all of them. If you mean the dragon ogres, there not exactly good given they're awful armour and high points cost again you'll only ever get a small detachment of them often too small to be of much threat and the shaggy for its points is just too liable to death compared to the other larger monsters HPA / Hydra etc.

That's why most people or people in general are comparing to the chosen & warriors because these other bits of awesome aren't commonly seen in chaos competitive lists too often. Most chaos armies I see, my own included consists of about 2 units of warriors, 1 unit of marauders a warshrine and heroes thats generally 2000 or so pts of chaos.