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KorPhaeron77 wrote:Daemons, in my opinion they should never have got their own codex in 40k. Daemons have always been summoned in the wake of the Chaos Legions, in fact it was a good fluff explanation of how the Legions match the imperium for numbers despite 10,000 years of war, because they summon their infernal allied during realspace incursions.

As a Daemon player, I'd say go cry some more! Why should I be forced to include crap I don't want just to play my army?! I like my pure Daemon army and it serves me quite well!
You can keep your power armour thak-you very much.

Spliting up Chaos Marines and Daemons was one of the best decisions GW made for 40k as it stopped alot of abuses like the daemonbomb or else bulking out expensive chaos marines with hordes of cheap fodder.
Now both camps can play their way and there's plenty of room for expansion as the books get re-done.

KorPhaeron77 wrote:Full demonic breaches without mortal followers are virtually impossible, which was part of what I liked about them. If daemons can invade on their own then what was the point of the Horus Heresy?

Full-blown dameonic incursions are a huge threat! (so much so that the Imperium has even founded an entire chapter of marines who are specially trained & equiped to deal with the threat!)
Chaos doesn't need mortal followers to spill out into real-space. Areas such as 'warp storms' are volitile & unstable enough that a daemonic host can tear their way onto our plain in nearby sectors. Planets that once were fought over by daemonic armies retain that taint the viel of reality is horribly thin on such worlds.

Chaos get their numbers from the masses of mortal followers such as mutants & traitors. Chaos marines are the real shock troops and Daemons are the unending tide.

KorPhaeron77 wrote:Also the Daemons codex requires mixed god armies to be competetive which spits in the face of the fluff. Honestly I hate seeing armies of bloodletters lead by Fateweaver, it just doesnt feel right, I'll never know why they gave them their own book when they were perfectly at home in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Clearly you've never seen what an Epidemius Nurgle army can do, or else the sheer amount of dakka a Tzeentch army can bring. Mono-god armies are viable - even Khorne with a pair of 'thristers, a couple 'grinders and a flappy prince.

I don't know, maybe we got our own book because by the tail end of the last chaos marine book, most competitive CSM armies were either IW's or else some variation of a giant daemonbomb? Codex: 'Chaos Daemons and the Spiky Marine stag party' probably wouldn't fit on the cover, so instead us daemon players finally got our own army!

Just because the current chaos marine book was a pile of crap right from the get-go shouldn't invalidate Daemons as their own seperate book.

KorPhaeron77 wrote:Also the Daemons codex requires mixed god armies to be competetive which spits in the face of the fluff. Honestly I hate seeing armies of bloodletters lead by Fateweaver, it just doesnt feel right, I'll never know why they gave them their own book when they were perfectly at home in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Sorry. But mixed armies are not against the fluff. There has always been mixed armies ever since Chaos was introduced to 40K. Sure, they had animostity and were prone to infighting. That was what made them unique and set them apart from the more "disciplined" loyalist forces. But to bring this defining element into Chaos that made them unique, you need to mix them. That was the essential design paradigm.

It's the sad legacy of WAAC-players with no respect for the fluff, who tried to sidestep animosity in the early books, that mono-lists become considered to be somewhat the norm. They are not. Mono-lists have been and always should be the exception. The "typical" Daemon (and CSM) force will always be mixed, as it should be.

blood reaper wrote:

Ledabot wrote:

blood reaper wrote:Tau.

Space COMMIES?

Yeah, no thanks.

Read my sig.

So their.... Astro Communists?

No. They are a despotic totalitarian collectivist imperialistic utilarianist society ruled by theocratic hereditary oligarchies watching over meritocratic councils. Not communists of any kind.

Thus, over the last 4 years we've head a total of new, individual and unique 109 Xenos/Chaos/IG releases vs. a total of 43 new, individual and unique Marine releases. Seems far fetched to say there's nothing "BUT the dull, featureless, boxy Spehs Mahreens". If it is, it's clearly not GWs fault if players dont take up them up on the rich pickings they throw out to Xenos people.

How many Space Marine suppliments are there? How many suppliments are there of IG? Eldar? Orks? Maybe Necrons, after it took GW over a decade to update. Maybe Dark Eldar, after if took GW a decade to update.

Because GW obviously cares about every army and saturates them equally. Isn't that right Sisters of Battle?

Hmm Going to have to do this backwards .. only counting codex armies.

Fave - Imperial Guard
2nd - Chaos Marines
3rd - Orks
4th - Dark Angels
5th - Eldar
6th - Sisters of Battle
7th - Dark Eldar
8th - Space Wolves
9th - Tau
10th - Space Marines
11th - Tyranids
12th - Blood Angels
13th - Grey Knights
14th - Necrons
15th - Chaos Daemons
16th - Black Templars


It was a toss up between Daemons or Templars, going to put down Templars. Not even sure I can fully explain it, just not a fan.

KplKeegan wrote:

How many Space Marine suppliments are there? How many suppliments are there of IG? Eldar? Orks? Maybe Necrons, after it took GW over a decade to update. Maybe Dark Eldar, after if took GW a decade to update.

Because GW obviously cares about every army and saturates them equally. Isn't that right Sisters of Battle?

It obviously doesn't saturate them equally. Compare, say, the near 30 different miniatures/kits released for the Dark Eldar with their latest book in comparions to the whooping 7 releases Grey Knights got. And do you play with supplements or with miniatures? Me, I play with miniatures. And to give, say, Grey Knight a halfway fair share of attention in comparison to, say, Dark Eldar, there's obviously about 20+ something Grey Knight releases still missing to get to that "equal saturation".

Space Wolves. "We like wolves, we ride some, we have fangs...like wolves, we are rustic and wear bits of fur and bone. Anyone not on a wolf gets a missile launcher. Zzzzz

Demons. Dull, limited range of creatures and beings. Yeah some marines fell pray to it. The Emperor holds it back yadada....Needs personality, a king behind the Chaos. Chaos has alot of potential, its crazy how GW ignores it.

Zweischneid wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

How many Space Marine suppliments are there? How many suppliments are there of IG? Eldar? Orks? Maybe Necrons, after it took GW over a decade to update. Maybe Dark Eldar, after if took GW a decade to update.

Because GW obviously cares about every army and saturates them equally. Isn't that right Sisters of Battle?

It obviously doesn't saturate them equally. Compare, say, the near 30 different miniatures/kits released for the Dark Eldar with their latest book in comparions to the whooping 7 releases Grey Knights got. And to give, say, Grey Knight a halfway fair share of attention in comparison to, say, Dark Eldar, there's obviously about 20+ something Grey Knight releases still missing to get to that "equal saturation".

Because the Dark Eldar don't need the new models to go with the new units they haven't recieved the 10+ years before their new codex, while I can pick between FIVE different box sets for the SAME tactical marine squad.

As of right now the armies I can never see collecting are

Sisters of battle, when they get a new codex and a nice set of new models then we'll see.

deamons of chaos, Just not interested

Tau, they almost didn’t make the list because I forgot they existed, I think the modes are all super bland and boring.

KplKeegan wrote:

Because the Dark Eldar don't need the new models to go with the new units they haven't recieved the 10+ years before their new codex, while I can pick between FIVE different box sets for the SAME tactical marine squad.

Grey Knights also waited 10+ years. Get off your high horse there will ya. I can choose three different books and dozends of different kits to play squish "high-tech-aliens" in floaty-boats. Not exactly diversity there either. But its getting away from your initial complaint.

You complained that you were tired of, I quote - the dull, featureless, boxy Spehs Mahreens. That was a compaint about the visuals of the Marine range, not the books. I have shown you that over the last 4 years, GW has release more than twice as many "non-Space Marine" units than Marine units. If you insist, I can show you the same for the last 10 to 12 years. Non-Marines for 40k have always outstripped Marine releases 2 to 1 or 3 to 1.

Zweischneid wrote:You complained that you were tired of, I quote - the dull, featureless, boxy Spehs Mahreens. That was a compaint about the visuals of the Marine range, not the books.

You assumed it was the miniature range.

Zweischneid wrote:

KorPhaeron77 wrote:Also the Daemons codex requires mixed god armies to be competetive which spits in the face of the fluff. Honestly I hate seeing armies of bloodletters lead by Fateweaver, it just doesnt feel right, I'll never know why they gave them their own book when they were perfectly at home in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Sorry. But mixed armies are not against the fluff. There has always been mixed armies ever since Chaos was introduced to 40K. Sure, they had animostity and were prone to infighting. That was what made them unique and set them apart from the more "disciplined" loyalist forces. But to bring this defining element into Chaos that made them unique, you need to mix them. That was the essential design paradigm..

No. Just no. You keep bringing up this stupid gak into conversations and even after being told you're wrong, you still keep at it, don't you?

Originally when Chaos was introduced, you couldn't do mixed forces. The only force that allowed you to do this was Black Legion in RT era because they switched from god to god so often. Otherwise, there was animosity. You could not have Slaanesh dudes in a Khorne force. Full stop. Or if you could, you were at a disadvantage. Animosity is there for army balance, not to stop WAAC gamers.

What made Chaos unique was the fact that they did not obey the laws of nature. Possessed by daemons, granted Chaos attributes. Could summon Daemons. Were veterans of the Horus Heresy. That's what made Chaos Space Marines unique.

The essential design paradigm was that you chose one specific god and you dedicated your warband to them. That was that. If anything, the WAAC gamers are the ones who abuse the system and mix in the different gods, like using Skarbrand to give your Daemonettes a re-roll to hit.

crons and space wolves. their models and fluff are just crap :/

supprised to see this much hate for sisters BTW XD

DPBellathrom wrote:

supprised to see this much hate for sisters BTW XD

This does not come as a shock to me. I am still kinda new and have been hearing SoB hate for ages, even before I got into 40k

While they fill a niche, I'm not a big fan of Dark Eldar.

Probably Blood Angels for me; they're just Space Marines with Fast vehicles. Wow. Somebody call the imagination brigade, because a dam of it just burst.

Space marines. It's not like there is anything bad about them. They just don't appeal to me.

Grey Knights.

They were cool once. I still hold my old Daemonhunters book and cry alone in a corner.

Now they're super badarses who don't afraid of no one and are super mega cool and write names on hearts and summon ghosts and are super extra special special!

Daemons. I mean, yeah, they're all Lovecraftian horrors from a different dimension rather than medieval daemons, but they look just like medieval Daemons. And that's an enormously uninspired look, to me.

any space marines except maybe wolves are easily the top, wolves get a a semi pass as they actually have some style. SOB and foot IG (gimme tanks, tanks and more tanks) would also make my list as absolutely no interest ever. Tau, maybe someday might be interesting but so far they have never held an interest either.

Mordiggian wrote:Daemons. I mean, yeah, they're all Lovecraftian horrors from a different dimension rather than medieval daemons, but they look just like medieval Daemons. And that's an enormously uninspired look, to me.

40k itself is medieval Fantasy in space. Going off that, you should be finding the entire game uninspired.

I'm not that surprised regarding the Eldar-hate. The presence of elves always polarizes people. As an Eldar player, I've learned to accept this.

People also seem to be hating Tyranids. This comes as a surprise to me considering they fit the setting perfectly. They fit the archetypes of the pure alien, the unknown, the horror, the body-mutilation, and the hordes without number.

---

Personally, I dislike Tau primarily for their fanbase.

Aside from the fanbase, Tau just have an annoying plot-shield that protects them from being wiped out.

The Imperium and Necrons exist because they're resilient.
Tyranids and Orks exist because they have numbers.
Eldar and Dark Eldar and Chaos exist because they have somewhere to run where they are mostly untouchable.

Tau have none of those advantages. They don't have the resilience of the Imperium, their tech and bodies are inferior. They don't have the numbers of any other faction. They also have nowhere to run when the fighting goes bad.
Their only reason to exist is plot-shield.

Also, their anime mecha design is just unappealing to me.

---

Additionally, the Space Marines in 40k are just too plentiful to even be likable at this point.

Orks, fluffwise are my favorite. Bad ass adrenaline junky creatures that can fix and make anything work? Awesome. Board game wise, I hate them. When someone moves an ork or something and they go ha! HILARIOUS orks are HILARIOUS hahahaha I FETHING Rage inside.
I had this guy the other day tell me Hey man! Orks are like, psychadelic mushrooms dude! They are like, totally spores dude!

I was major raging.

The books portray them nicely, the recent space marine game portrays them as eh
Which theres another question. 600000000 orks invaded that planet and you fight them in groups of 6? jeez.

Grey knights because they went from an ultra-rare(even by SM standards) but powerful and used only against the demonic to being able to own every race and have absurd rules. I love the trilogy and how they are portrayed in other books, but its always goes like this: ultra-elite, ultra-rare, despite being able to own nearly any space marine, most of what makes them awesome is that they are the weakness of Daemons, without Daemons present they are alot less powerful, useful and a waste of resources.

Eldar I can't stand their demeanor and tau are too naive/cheerful for my taste.

If I had to choose, I'd probably thin out the space marine codexes. When half the game's codexes come from one fraction of a faction, something is wrong. I understand they're all "different", but the game feels more like "spacemarine 40k" and less like actual variety every time I play. And this is coming from a guy who plays IG. i went into my store a couple of days ago to see a team game going on. 4 of the 6 armies were space wolves. I get people like the army, but it just gets tiresome. I can never find myself able to care about which ones I'm fighting, i always end up thinking "looks like I'm fighting blue marines today" *yawn*. The only ones that are actually all that different are grey knights, space wolves, and maybe the templar or dark angels, the rest just look too similar. I'm sorry guys, but its just hard to think otherwise when 4 out of 5 people you play are running marine armies. They just blur together and any uniqueness just dissappears.

Also, for the guy saying the stuff about how the spacemarines only recieved a third of all kits released over the past few years (sorry, on phone, cant check for your name) Did you take into account the fact that many of the kits are used for almost all the chapters? For example, a grey knights rhino, and a space wolves rhino come from the same kit. If you count them as unique for every marine codex, you'd probably have 2 times the marine kits compared to all the other factions combined (sad part is, i may not be exxagerating there) 8 or so factions all using the same rhino, the same drop pod, the same landraiders, etc. they don't need to release as many different kits since many are cross compatible.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
No. Just no. You keep bringing up this stupid gak into conversations and even after being told you're wrong, you still keep at it, don't you?

Originally when Chaos was introduced, you couldn't do mixed forces. The only force that allowed you to do this was Black Legion in RT era because they switched from god to god so often. Otherwise, there was animosity. You could not have Slaanesh dudes in a Khorne force. Full stop. Or if you could, you were at a disadvantage. Animosity is there for army balance, not to stop WAAC gamers.

What made Chaos unique was the fact that they did not obey the laws of nature. Possessed by daemons, granted Chaos attributes. Could summon Daemons. Were veterans of the Horus Heresy. That's what made Chaos Space Marines unique.

The essential design paradigm was that you chose one specific god and you dedicated your warband to them. That was that. If anything, the WAAC gamers are the ones who abuse the system and mix in the different gods, like using Skarbrand to give your Daemonettes a re-roll to hit.

Um. There was no Black Legion of that name in Slaves of Darkness yet, though they had introduced Horus. Also, there wasn't even animosity yet in slaves of darkness. Indeed, you couldn't even choose which Daemons/Possessions/etc. you got. In RT, you just rolled (D10 still back then) on a table with 1-2 getting you Khorne, 3-4 getting you Slaneesh, 5-6 Nurgle, 7-8 Tzeentch and 9-10 Independent every time you summoned thngs or got possessions. Unless you rolled constantly the same number, it was impossible in RT to have a "mono-God" force. By pure virtue of the fact that the game used dice, you were bound to get a mixture of things(who, in RT-days, weren't even afflicted by animosity).

I find the Eldar models to be super ugly, and the fact that they're psychic space elves make me wanna heave. Also, some chaos models just look like butt.

Favourite

Necons
Space Wolves
Salamanders
Sisters of Battle
Orks
Chaos Space Marines
Tau
Tyranids
Dark Eldar
Blood Angels
Imperial Guard
Demons of Chaos
Grey Knights
Eldar
Ultramarines
Dark Angels

Least Favourite

I personally cant stand the Tau, I'm probably going to upset some people by saying that but I just think they could be so much more bad ass than they currently are. My friend collects them and they have never done anything that has made me say "WOW!" in battle, they just seem pretty lame to me.

Cryonicleech wrote:Grey Knights.

They were cool once. I still hold my old Daemonhunters book and cry alone in a corner.

Now they're super badarses who don't afraid of no one and are super mega cool and write names on hearts and summon ghosts and are super extra special special!

Exalted Pariah wrote:Grey knights because they went from an ultra-rare(even by SM standards) but powerful and used only against the demonic to being able to own every race and have absurd rules. I love the trilogy and how they are portrayed in other books, but its always goes like this: ultra-elite, ultra-rare, despite being able to own nearly any space marine, most of what makes them awesome is that they are the weakness of Daemons, without Daemons present they are alot less powerful, useful and a waste of resources.

I agree with these. When I first found out about grey knights and their fluff, I thought, "wow, these guys are really cool." I liked them because they gave a "good" supernatural feel. They were made to seem very rare, very mysterious. They were made to feel like a very special, unique resource that you don't pull out against "lesser" threats. They were almost the space marines of space marines.

Now, they just feel like a force-field dog (toy story) complex. Even though they are still the "elite", their scarcity feels downplayed. I half expect two of them to bump fists and say "Wonder Knight Powers.... ACTIVATE!"

I get the same feeling from them now that I got way back in old Battletech from the Federated Suns fluff. It has been a long time, but I still remember the character Victor Stiener-Davian making me give up reading a book series out of sheer annoyance of him never really "losing". Or the same feeling I got from Thrall in the Warcraft fluff (specifically in Warcraft 3). Annoying, super warrior who is the settings "good guy", and never really loses. His weakness is being TOO NOBLE. In fact, Warcraft orcs, despite being originally derived from WHFB Orcs, are what made me love 40k Orks. Because, I loved the Orcs in Warcraft 2. Then Warcraft 3 essentially said, "despite the fact that these guys slaughtered everything in their path a few years ago, it wasn't their fault, they were being controlled by demons. They're actually super good and noble."

So when I got in to 40k and Orks were Orks again, stomping about just looking for a fight, I immediately knew what my first army was going to be.

As for Tyranids, I dislike them because they fit the setting so well. Because I'm tired of jumped up space locusts here to devour your world(s).