Is Draigo a Daemon?

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**Kaldor**

whitedragon wrote:GW clearly uses Sisters as the "whipping girls" of the 41st millenium.

Nonsense. Theres like, four recorded incidents of the Sisters getting 'whipped' and at least as many instances of their victories.

**whitedragon**

Kaldor wrote:
whitedragon wrote:GW clearly uses Sisters as the "whipping girls" of the 41st millenium.

Nonsense. Theres like, four recorded incidents of the Sisters getting 'whipped' and at least as many instances of their victories.

I'm going to assume you just haven't read all that much GW fluff, as I can find more than "four" instances just in the Sisters of Battle codex! I respectfully disagree.

In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

**Hunterindarkness**

whitedragon wrote:
In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

I disagree, that makes him a saint.

**English Assassin**

Hunterindarkness wrote:
whitedragon wrote:
In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

I disagree, that makes him a saint.

Neither statement is sufficiently well-founded to be unequivocally agreed-upon; the two, however, are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.

**Hunterindarkness**

Saint/daemon are really the same "Class" of warp entity. The only difference is who they serve and what they plan for humanity.

**English Assassin**

Hunterindarkness wrote: Saint/daemon are really the same "Class" of warp entity. The only difference is who they serve and what they plan for humanity.

Reasonable speculation, but still speculation. I like the idea myself, but it's not a conclusion unequivocally supported in the fluff.

**Hunterindarkness**

The fluff isn't supported in the fluff. This is 40k we are talking about where 'Official" fluff often contradicts itself and writers flat out ignore past fluff to make whatever they are currently work on function.

Speculation is all we ever have

**Bassline**

He is only banished there for 10,000 years that is how long the curse will last then he be mortal again

**whitedragon**

Bassline wrote:He is only banished there for 10,000 years that is how long the curse will last then he be mortal again

I dunno, alot can happen in 10,000 years. And also to Hunter's point, I believe Saints are venerated in Imperial Doctrine (or what have you), and since the Grey Knights must be kept secret from the Imperium proper, I'd say it would be pretty difficult to make Draigo a Saint.

On another note, if Draigo really is a demon, could it be part of Tzeentch's plan to finally corrupt the Grey Knights from within? Draigo was greeted as a brother by the other Grey Knights when he emerged from the warp, so if he is a demon than presumably they would be consorting with the enemy.

**Deathclad**

whitedragon wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:
whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

okay what you didn't read is before the grey knights arrived the blood tide drove the sisters insane (or made them explode) and in their insanity they started attacking anything that moved

and on to the points i have for this argument

First: the definition of deamon in the tacticia imperialis is a being spawned of the warp (in a nut shell) so Draigo doesn't fit the budget because its Mkar's curse that traps him in the warp
he didn't come from the warp

Second: i have read extensively on deamons and the grey knights and none of the deamons the grey knights have encountered could kill a mortal and then turn him into a deamon

Third: even if Draigo has been corrupted when he goes into battle with his brothers he comes into contact with purifiers who can sense warp taint and who would try to kill Draigo if he was tainted

Forth: you have to through out the argument of the Sanguinor being a deamons prince because no where in his lore does it say the Sanguinor comes from the warp so he cant even be tainted let alone a deamon

Fifth: if you had actually read the grey knights codex you would have seen that the grey knights firmly believe that the way to beat deamons is to use there own weapons against them and also in the lexicanum it states that those touched by the warp can use many of the items used by deamons so that explains the use of warp metal to reforge his sword.

Sixth and lastly: if the imperium did have any deamons the closest things would be saints and the legion because the formers divine heritage and the latter because they have been in the warp for centuries and it has obviously effected them

and like Hunterindarkness said you guys need to read the books before you say whats in them and don't leave out the parts that don't go along with your stories

**Omegus**

whitedragon wrote:He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

All of that is possible, but I would be hesitant to ascribe any deeper meaning to anything Ward writes. I seriously doubt there are any clues or fancy metaphors therein, it's just a 12-yo boy throwing stuff on the page that "sounds kewl".

Draigo is an impossibility. He's not in the Eye of Terror, he's in the Warp proper. No psyker is powerful enough to snub the Gods on their own turf. The Emperor couldn't do it, and neither could Magnus. The fluff can be justified, but you have to stretch pretty far to do it:

1.) It's a bedtime story to tell GK initiates to inspire them.
2.) It's an allegory on the hopeless nature of their battle, that no matter what outrageous feats you perform, you can never really win against Chaos.
3.) He's long dead, and the thing appearing out of the Warp to curb-stomp the enemies of the Imperium is some manifestation of their faith and holy fervor.
4.) He's being toyed with, with everything that happens in his passage being essentially a hallucination created by the Gods just to screw with him.

**Rimmy**

Hunterindarkness wrote:The fluff isn't supported in the fluff. This is 40k we are talking about where 'Official" fluff often contradicts itself and writers flat out ignore past fluff to make whatever they are currently work on function.

Speculation is all we ever have

consider exactly NONE of this is real, it is basically all possible and equally impossible. THIS is Schoedinger's cat people.

now as an avid GK player from their first incarnation, I find Draigo to be REALLY mezmorizing, and equally slowed.

as for him being alive in the warp and unharmed or untainted, I propose the following option:

If indeed he is a TRUE IoM saint, and being a warp entity, then he is not by definition a chaos demon. the Warp simply is. the chaos gods merely reside there. it is equally as possible that "good" (or anti chaos) can reside in the warp so long as they have sufficient power to do so.

Being the Supreme Grand Master and Head of the GK Council, it therefore suggests that Draigo MAY possess the fortitude of charector to endure this banishment.

do I like it? no. but if he appears, and the Brothers around him at any time sensed he was tainted, the Council would have no problem labeling him a heretic and removing him.

re the warp steel part, THAT I have an issue with. the GK's can't use Ordo Hereticus troops or resources because they're tainted. IF warp steel is chaotic, then he shouldn't have it. IF what I said earlier makes sense and indeed, its no more chosen a side than the warp its-self, then its alright by me.

**poda_t**

The best way to explain Draigo has absolutely NOTHING to do with Matt Ward, in spite of what all you Ward protesters have to say. In the end, Ward is on GW's paycheck, so he did what they told him to do, and GW okayed it, so stop acting like it's all Ward's fault.

Draigo is the 40K version of Annikin Skywalker. In it's eternal quest to subvert other peoples' intellectual property as it's own, GW created a character that was made out of "the power" itself and brings balance to all things and has the power of chocolate icecream on his side. Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character. Let's face it, the way the codices are written, its like Stan and Marney are better than their parent primarchs which is simply not possible. Abbadon is another example of ridiculous, (with regard to stats, he is pretty much a one-man-army....on that note so is Kharn). Then there's the Necrons that have some crazy characters too, and let's not forget CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. GW just needed something that fit the GK, and the Skywalker fit the bill amiably.

**ContemplativeSphinx**

poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

**Buttons**

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

Well we have
Leman Russ
Lion
Robute Guilliman
Vulkan
Corax
Khan
Thraka
Yarrick
Dante
Every single Phoenix Lord
Bill S. Preston
And Theadore Logan
Spock
The Rock
Doc Ock
And Hulk Hogan

**Rimmy**

Buttons wrote:
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

Well we have
Leman Russ
Lion
Robute Guilliman
Vulkan
Corax
Khan
Thraka
Yarrick
Dante
Every single Phoenix Lord
Bill S. Preston
And Theadore Logan
Spock
The Rock
Doc Ock
And Hulk Hogan

I believe that is Bill S. Preston Esquire.

and you left off:

Bruce Lee
Macho man Randy Savage
Evil Kenivel
the X-Men
The Justice League
The SUper Friends
The Animaniacs
Pinky and the Brain
The entire cast of the muppets and the Looney Tunes
and Chuck Norris.

but seriously, HOW do you leave Chuck Norris off that list? better watch out man. he's coming for you....

**Buttons**

I actually go that from the song the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, the names at the end of that list and like 20 others (including every single power ranger) gang up on Chuck Norris.

Here is the section of the song

Then Gandalf the Grey,
And Gandalf the White,
The Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight,
And Benilo Mussolini,
And the Blue Meanie,
And Cowboy Curtis,
And Jambi the Genie,
Robocop,
The Terminator,
Captain Kirk,
And Darth Vader,
Lo Pan,
Superman,
Every single Power Ranger,
Bill S. Preston,
And Theadore Logan,
Spock,
The Rock,
Doc Ock,
And Hulk Hogan.
All came out of nowhere lightning fast,
And they kicked Chuck Norris in his cowboy ass,
It was the bloodiest battle that the world ever saw,
With civilians looking on in total awe,
The fight raged on for a century,
Many lives were claimed but eventually,
The champion stood,
The rest saw the better,
Mr. Rogers in a blood stained sweater,

**Rimmy**

Buttons wrote:I actually go that from the song the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, the names at the end of that list and like 20 others (including every single power ranger) gang up on Chuck Norris.

I kind of hate myself for looking that up.

Spoiler:

**Matt.Kingsley**

Carnage43 wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Techniquly there are more than 4 chaos gods, 'The 4' are just the biggest and badest and less subtle of them all

I beleive Draigo is a warp being who has the consience of the form flesh-and-blood-real-universe Draigo and is doing what ever he can to destroy the rest of chaos (The Chaos Gods hate each other, if you didn't know) and if Draigo is really a daemon of the Emporer/Star Child, then he would hate the rest of the chaos stuff as he would have before as a 'true' Grey Knight, if not more so.

**Rimmy**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Carnage43 wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Techniquly there are more than 4 chaos gods, 'The 4' are just the biggest and badest and less subtle of them all

I beleive Draigo is a warp being who has the consience of the form flesh-and-blood-real-universe Draigo and is doing what ever he can to destroy the rest of chaos (The Chaos Gods hate each other, if you didn't know) and if Draigo is really a daemon of the Emporer/Star Child, then he would hate the rest of the chaos stuff as he would have before as a 'true' Grey Knight, if not more so.

except that warp entities gain power by those who believe in them.

if the entire Grey Knight chapter created a warp being (in Draigo) instead of him being trapped, then the entire chapter would be deemed heretics and they'd all kill themselves as an act of faith.

no, I think its just that Draigo is a corporal being trapped in the warp, held up by his strength and fortitude and able to continue the fight in his prison.

if you think about it, it DOES make sense really.

**Bullockist**

bah who cares, i'm stuck thinking about sisters of battle being whipped (as 40k whipping girls) .... HAWT!....in a friendly consensual way ;D

**Omegus**

Rimmy wrote:no, I think its just that Draigo is a corporal being trapped in the warp, held up by his strength and fortitude and able to continue the fight in his prison.

if you think about it, it DOES make sense really.

Knowing what we know about the Warp, no, it doesn't make any sense at all. He's a ghost being screwed with by the Gods, or the whole story is just propaganda/indoctrination for baby GKs.

**McNinja**

I think that maybe GW could benefit from having cohesive fluff. None of this alternate universe/writers making things up as they go garbage. They need a codex for the fluff, much like the codex in Mass Effect contains a full log of all of the fluff for the universe.

**Hunterindarkness**

McNinja wrote:I think that maybe GW could benefit from having cohesive fluff. None of this alternate universe/writers making things up as they go garbage. They need a codex for the fluff, much like the codex in Mass Effect contains a full log of all of the fluff for the universe.

QFT. They need a Setting bible, a Creative director and to freaking enforce those things.

**McNinja**

Or fans. Did you perchance see the outrage at the most recent Mass Effect novel? Deception was so full of plot inconsistencies that the fans went and made a four page document detailing every single thing that was wrong with the book. Bioware eventually decided to basically rewrite the book and fix the problems within it. We need that.

**Hunterindarkness**

The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

**BaronIveagh**

Hunterindarkness wrote:The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

QFT.

"We're a minis company, not a gaming company."

**Rimmy**

everyone just calm down, drink the kool-aide and we'll all be better.

**ContemplativeSphinx**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

QFT.

"We're a minis company, not a gaming company."

The thing of it is - they seem to have concluded that this a better strategy to sell their products.

Everybody gets to have their own version of the Emperor, the Heresy, their favorite faction, etc. etc. They'll liberally quote from sources that agree with their POV, or attempt to use other methods of justification in order to enforce their viewpoint on how a specific topic should be conceived.

For GW to take a definitive stand or position on a hotly contested issue runs the risk of alienating a segment or set of players who have already made up their mind about the matter.

It isn't in the companies interest to declare something right or wrong, true or false - simply because

1.) They want your money. And they want the money of those who disagree with whatever you have to say.

So if everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too - why bother settling the matter?

2.) "Reboot when Necessary"

They could literally finish off the Horus Heresy's line of novels, wait a few years, and declare all of that null and void in order to raise cash by selling a different game/novel line/etc.

In this manner they don't even have to create anything new (of course given the long line of IP that WH40K has taken from...

). All they need to do is simply rebrand/repackage the product.

**Hunterindarkness**

Which is more or less mismanagement. In the long run, it will bite them.$0k sales more by word of mouth then anything, and as A new player myself I see the issues , the creaks and the growing heated hate over conflicting fluff and bad management In time it will no longer be enough "Just to sale miniatures" as the setting is what sells them.

Also the "we are a mini company, Not a gaming company" is a pure lie and a lazy attempt at a cop out for not controlling ones IP.