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He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

Yes, he's effectively a being of the warp, fuss in the eyes of the Imperium a Daemon. I wounder if the Inquisition should have a look into this.....

That Draigo is actually some kind of "daemon of Law" is one of the ways in which people have tried to make his ghastly fluff more bearable.

Sadly, it is not specifically supported anywhere in the cavalcade of terrible prose dedicated to him by The Great Beast.

I like to think of Draigo as the Emperor Reincarnated, with all the heresy and Thorian beliefs that come with it.

no he is just really %$#^%%$ annoying

whitedragon wrote:He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

/tg/ had some hilarious and disturbing story about Draigo or whatever. Pretty much all of his successes and victories are hallucinations caused by the Gods of Chaos as he is literally broken in body, beaten down by M'kar and simply being given the hallucinations as a form of torture. On the other hand I would like the idea of Draigo and Sanguinor being effectively a daemon prince of order if only because it would move the ploy forward.

Buttons wrote:move the ploy forward

Argh. It's a setting, not a story. The plot does not need to move forward, it's a background to the stories you tell with your battles. But I can't stay angry at you, since your username is Buttons, and that's super-cute.

Imperial Daemon!
The first of many to fight the increasing numbers of Chaos Grey Knights!

Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

He is more like a saint. IoM saints are more or less also warp entities. Some of them are "still around" so to speak and some have been known to "Manifest" from time to time.

And no, Matt Ward did not make Chaos Gray Knights. People misreading the codex and twisting it to their own ends did that.

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

I think that it's more a sneaky inference by GW that the grey knights are not as "pure" as they may seem. First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle, then Draigo walks the warp being "summoned" in times of need, and forging his sword out of warp metal. Seems awful demony to me.

This makes me think, what does Draigo do in his downtime?

Draigo is dead. Its just propaganda to give hope to the grey knights.

At least thats how i have to rationalize so it makes sense.

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed) and then used that Blood, along with other ingredients to make a talisman. They then anointed themselves with what was crafted. The blood made up one of many components of the "oil" and you do not "bath" in a anointing. You place a small amount upon the subject (often the forehead) and sometimes in a holy symbol shape and invoke a Godly power, in this case the Emperor of man.

I mean really why must folks keep adding things it simply does not say, while ignoring what it stated they did with the blood?

And the Iom already has a 'God" and Daemons. The Emperor and his saints.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed) and then used that Blood, along with other ingredients to make a talisman. They then anointed themselves with what was crafted. The blood made up one of many components of the "oil" and you do not "bath" in a anointing. You place a small amount upon the subject (often the forehead) and sometimes in a holy symbol shape and invoke a Godly power, in this case the Emperor of man.

I mean really why must folks keep adding things it simply does not say, while ignoring what it stated they did with the blood?

And the Iom already has a 'God" and Daemons. The Emperor and his saints.

So if the GK only needed a small amount to annoint themselves, why kill the sisters? What did they do with the other buckets of blood from the dead sisters?

I can understand killing one to get her blood, just not all of them.

whitedragon wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

I think that it's more a sneaky inference by GW that the grey knights are not as "pure" as they may seem. First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle, then Draigo walks the warp being "summoned" in times of need, and forging his sword out of warp metal. Seems awful demony to me.

No, it's just Kroothawk being Kroothawk.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitedragon wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

that would also imply that they dont have pure/innocent blood

Can this not be another bloodtide thread, we already have one of those on the front page of this very subforum!

DPBellathrom wrote:well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3

I'm not sure that Mephiston is a "demon prince" per se, because Demons usually can only last for so long in the material world before their bodies wither and they get sucked back into the warp (kinda like Draigo), but it is possible that he may have been possessed by a demon while in the throes of the Red Thirst. That could explain why he is such a monster statwise!

Why does this thread make me think an "Angels of the emperor" codex is coming?

Let's check your evidence shall we?

Lives in the Warp? Check.

Emerges only when the barrier between reality and Warp is weak? Check.

Returns after done? Check.

Ridiculously Grimdark and overthetop powerful? Check.

Spends his time attempting to destroy Chaos and disrupt the plans of the Chaos Gods? Check.

Conclusion:


















Dear gods, he's a Daemon Prince of Malal!

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

So if the GK only needed a small amount to annoint themselves, why kill the sisters? What did they do with the other buckets of blood from the dead sisters?

I can understand killing one to get her blood, just not all of them.

Well by the Codex there were not many sisters left. And as to why, we do not know. It may have required the last three drops from a heart, ot the blood taken from the blade that priced the heart or what have you. We are unsure why, but the talisman required it. This we know, as to what the rite to craft it entailed, that is left unsaid.

whitedragon wrote:[
If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.


Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

It does not say they were murdered, nor does it say the volunteered. But saying they were murder is as made up as saying they went willingly. It simply does not say and "Hacking them apart" is not in the book or even implied in the book and "Bathing in blood" is outright false as the book tells you just what they did with the blood. As for sacrifice, that is not how you guys use it. people always seem to use term 1, when in fact the death of the SoB was not part of the rite. They simply needed the blood. The death of the sisters were not part of the rite, which is what you implied.

And yes it was not nice,not good and shiny. They are the freaking Inquisition. They do not do good and shiny, they do dirty, vile and necessary. They do things other folks flinch from and do not have the fortitude to do.

whitedragon wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3

I'm not sure that Mephiston is a "demon prince" per se, because Demons usually can only last for so long in the material world before their bodies wither and they get sucked back into the warp (kinda like Draigo), but it is possible that he may have been possessed by a demon while in the throes of the Red Thirst. That could explain why he is such a monster statwise!

nah Iwas just joking about mephy though he has the same stat line as one :3

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:[
If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

It does not say they were murdered, nor does it say the volunteered. But saying they were murder is as made up as saying they went willingly. It simply does not say and "Hacking them apart" is not in the book or even implied in the book and "Bathing in blood" is outright false as the book tells you just what they did with the blood. As for sacrifice, that is not how you guys use it. people always seem to use term 1, when in fact the death of the SoB was not part of the rite. They simply needed the blood. The death of the sisters were not part of the rite, which is what you implied.

And yes it was not nice,not good and shiny. They are the freaking Inquisition. They do not do good and shiny, they do dirty, vile and necessary. They do things other folks flinch from and do not have the fortitude to do.

That's kinda the point isn't it? Aside from you glossing over the points I made, the authors want to tell us the sisters probably weren't killed nicely. And there are things known as "context clues" that can help us determine what was going on at the time of the bloodtide, and I'd say the evidence points more strongly towards sister blood getting splattered all over the place vice calmly placing them in the "sister blood juicer" and then letting them expire peacefully.

So knowing that, which you admit to yourself that it was not good, nice or shiny, we can only conclude that Khorne was just as pleased that sisters died and whether they were killed by the Bloodtide, Chaos Warriors, or Grey Knights, Khorne was still just as pleased. It almost makes you wonder if that wasn't what Khorne had in mind all along? As we all know, the path to damnation is paved with good intentions.

EDIT:

And yeah, it is pretty funny that Meph has DP stats, although I think the GW writers like to have fun with this sort of thing so we can get this kind of speculation going.

Then entire Blood Tide story reeks of casual misogyny.

Whaaaaat, just cause some women get killed?, if you didn't have such a post count I would call troll here.

Then Wh40k is full of Misandry, because men get killed constantly

Platuan4th wrote:Then entire Blood Tide story reeks of casual misogyny.

jgehunter wrote:Whaaaaat, just cause some women get killed?, if you didn't have such a post count I would call troll here.

Then Wh40k is full of Misandry, because men get killed constantly

That doesn't mean that you can ignore an example of casual misogyny when you see it. That's what perpetuates it!

And I shall ask again, how does?:

women getting killed in the 40k universe = Misogyny

If instead of sisters they killed guardsmen, there would still be debate over it but, would you say it is "casual Misandry"