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by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...

Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.

Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.

Except in the case of WWII, its pretty damn accurate.

Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

Yes thou shalt not argue with DACHSHUNDSKRIEG! However Team Wienie has granted permission to discuss the point.

Asia only for this discussion.
Fact. Japanese invaded/made protectorate Manchuria - aka Northern China.
Fact. Over time Japan invaded/made a protectorate - portions of the rest of China.
Fact.. Japan invaded and conquered Korea.
Fact. In 1941-1942 Japan conquered the Phillipines, modern day Vietnam, modern day Laos, modern day Cambodia, Thailand, Singapore, and other portions of Asia.

Squigsquasher wrote:Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...

Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.

Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo


And, most extensively:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II


It's not at all perfect

Nanking appears to have a lot of 'iffy' details and doctored stuff, but I wasn't exactly implying the Chinese had a perfect record. Nevertheless, millions happened to be missing... and I think that Allied PoWs can testify to Japanese brutality in the prisoner of war camps.

If Japan receives a lot of flak, I don't see why they should care.. they should be laughing; they won the war

May as well also point out the facts of how the Japanese treated folks who occupied territory they conquered.

Maybe a nice history of the Epidemic Prevention and Water Purification Department of the Kwantung Army is also in order.

Decently documented and pretty evil.

I was going to argue, but I can't stop laughing at your signiature...Mainly that bit about the pancake batter and chocolate chip encrusted sausage...FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still, (sticking to Asia again) I do wonder just how many of the tales of Japanese military brutality are entirely true, and how many are ever so slightly economical with the truth...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...

Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.

Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo


And, most extensively:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II


It's not at all perfect

Nanking appears to have a lot of 'iffy' details and doctored stuff, but I wasn't exactly implying the Chinese had a perfect record. Nevertheless, millions happened to be missing... and I think that Allied PoWs can testify to Japanese brutality in the prisoner of war camps.

If Japan receives a lot of flak, I don't see why they should care.. they should be laughing; they won the war

Well, thank you for that. Deeply interesting...But, hang on...I can see no way that Japan won the war. Hundreds of thousands of their civilians died, the country was practically brought to it's knees, their military was disbanded (which even the Japanese will agree was a good thing in some ways)...If that's winning, I'd hate to lose (Yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but...I don't get it...)

Squigsquasher wrote:I was going to argue, but I can't stop laughing at your signiature...Mainly that bit about the pancake batter and chocolate chip encrusted sausage...FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still, (sticking to Asia again) I do wonder just how many of the tales of Japanese military brutality are entirely true, and how many are ever so slightly economical with the truth...

Family lore has it that my grandfather was one of the ones who helped smuggle pictures out of what was going on in China (sea captain at the time and China was on his run). When I was younger I was rifling through a bunch of old pics in one of our old chests (Chinese strangely enough), and found some really gruesome pics. Mom said they were some of the pics her dad had from before the war.

There's no blame here. These generations are gone, like the Persians, and slave owners in the Antebellum South. Acknowledge it with a hearty "never again," a prayer, and move on.

Frazzled wrote: Acknowledge it with a hearty "never again," a prayer, and move on.

Well, at least acknowledge it as a first step...

Indeed.

Incidentally, I have seen something supposedly disproving a lot of said photographs (swords held the wrong way, shadows facing different directions) but that's another story...

Suffice to say, this thread should get back on topic.

Squigsquasher wrote:Well, thank you for that. Deeply interesting...But, hang on...I can see no way that Japan won the war. Hundreds of thousands of their civilians died, the country was practically brought to it's knees, their military was disbanded (which even the Japanese will agree was a good thing in some ways)...If that's winning, I'd hate to lose (Yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but...I don't get it...)

Two words: Marshall Aid.


Adequately persuade two industrious countries that war doesn't work as a policy tool and that economic warfare is the method of power projection for tomorrow, give them startup moneys and hey-presto; two powerhouses embarrassing the US in the 1980s

Plus they got a constitutional monarchy, democracy, free love, apple pie, etc.

...Apple...Pie?

I actually don't like apple pie. Its like chocolate pie except without being good.

...CHOCOLATE PIE!?!?!

And who are these cat-worshipping heretics you mention in your signiature? And when are you going to do a Dachshundkrieg Imperial Guard army? And does my avatar make me look fat? And does the Lavender Town theme really make people commit suicide? What's with Flava Flav, and the clock? Where's me washboard? Why am I asking these stupid questions?

Squigsquasher wrote:...CHOCOLATE PIE!?!?!

And who are these cat-worshipping heretics you mention in your signiature? And when are you going to do a Dachshundkrieg Imperial Guard army? And does my avatar make me look fat? And does the Lavender Town theme really make people commit suicide? What's with Flava Flav, and the clock? Where's me washboard? Why am I asking these stupid questions?

Stay tuned to the next exciting adventure of Underdog to the answer to these exciting questions!

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway
also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).

Joey wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.

try again.

Squigsquasher wrote:I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

If you look at the scientific (or pseudo-scientific depending on your persuasion) literature of the time, the actions of Japan and Germany weren't wholy irrational. The problem with the Axis nations (and the USSR) was their system of government that allowed those abuses to be perpetrated. More democratic countries had much fewer incidents of racism and abuses because of increased transparency.

It's probably been linked before:
http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html

I'm not sure the ones shoved into the ovens in germany and Eastern Europe or the wholesale slaughter on the Eastern front that killed millions of civilians would call that...rational.

Frazzled wrote:I'm not sure the ones shoved into the ovens in germany and Eastern Europe or the wholesale slaughter on the Eastern front that killed millions of civilians would call that...rational.

Well of course not. But their political, intellectual, and (most importantly) armed superiors felt that way.

Eugenics was more than just a scary word in the early 20th century.

Nor was it a rational word in the early 20th century. Method does not make the madness less mad.

Joey wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway
also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).

I think the Barbary States might've.

RatBot wrote:
You heard it here first, North Korea has created Godzilla, or some other gigantic city-burning monster that suspiciously resembles a man stomping around in a suit made of rubber.

EVERYONE PANIC.

iIt's called the Pulgasari.

Henners91 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway
also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).

I think the Barbary States might've.

Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway
also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).

I think the Barbary States might've.

Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.

Russian organized crime does so on a daily basis. Women, at least.

One could argue that pulling out folks who were thrown into the various debtors prisons and selling them to ship owners and captains who then transported them to the New World and sold them as indentureds (when they had little to no control over the terms of the indenture) was a form of slavery.

Often indentures were kept in debt to extend the period of their indenture. I'm pretty sure a majority never lived long enough to finish their indentured service to enjoy freedom, at least in the early colonial times.

Indentured servitude!!! Nooooooooooooo!!!

Sorry for the overeaction, I done early colonial times for my history degree and it was all they mentioned, whilst ignoring the interesting stuff like the Bacon rebellion and the Salem witch trials.

Anyway, back OT. I can't believe Frazz is laughing at Turkey in the Korean war. They aquitted themselves quite well and had a reputation for ferocity and last ditch defending.

Was watching McArthur the other day (Gregory Peck) and the scene were he is ordered to only destroy half a bridge (Yalu river or something?) prompts the reply: "In all my years of military training I've never learned how to destroy half a bridge." Always makes me laugh.

azazel the cat wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

Joey wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.

The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway
also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).

I think the Barbary States might've.

Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.

Russian organized crime does so on a daily basis. Women, at least.

I'm just going with British (maybe you are too). I know slavery exists to this day in several portions of the world.

CptJake wrote:

Frazzled wrote: Acknowledge it with a hearty "never again," a prayer, and move on.

Well, at least acknowledge it as a first step...

Yes right, there was that business some years ago now where a load of the school history books had changed to paint Japan in a better light. I think several hundred teachers resigned over it, although I'm not sure about what the end result was.

I was living in Korea during the earthquake that hit Japan. Of course there was a lot of sympathy, especially among the younger generation, whereas from my experience the older people tended to shrug and say something along the lines of "they had it coming". Some of the stuff the Japanese did in Korea (like China), essentially trying to destroy a culture and civilization, was beyond belief. Like the Nazi treatment of the Jews, conceptualising your victims as being less than human, a lower form of life, allows people to do unthinkable things to each other. That's not to say the Allies were all smiles, roses and John Wayne shooting lazy from the hip - they too did some bloody terrible stuff, and a lot of people in powerful positions were made infeasibly rich by it. But, war is raw backwards as they say, and it's important to try and remember the reasons why the war happened - hopefully (although who am I kidding here? ) to stop them happening again.

Conversely, I've found that Germany seems to go almost too far regarding the feeling of national shame. There was a joke years ago on a comedy sketch show called Harry Enfield (which most Brits over a certain age will be familiar with), where a German guy in Britain starts apologising for his people's actions during the war - at bus stops, supermarkets, wherever. Like most comedy it comes from observation, and indeed I think WW2 and the events surrounding it still seem to hang around the neck of the country.

From my own experience, I met a German chap the same age as me some years ago at a party. Drunken conversation eventually inadvertently turned to the war, and the change in his character was unbelievable - eyes to the floor, I couldn't get a word out of him afterwards. I mean, of course it is vital that WW2, and specifically Hitler's rise to power (and the reasons for it) are remembered, but this guy was 4 or 5 generations removed from those events.

Regarding the OP, NK periodically makes 'sea of fire', sometimes 'lake of fire' speaches regarding Seoul, usually every 6 months or so (I think they could really do with a new script writer to try and come up with something more imaginative). In fact this one was a little overdue, perhaps the countdown to the next one was stopped in-between Kim Jong Il dying and his son coming into power.