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Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

starsdawn wrote:Yeah, because I totally said that MSU is god and horde is crap. Like, tooooooootally.

I also didn't say that the razorbacks are there to kill the Hive guard. What I said that you need to get in range first because they're most likely staying at the back and can even run away from you if need be (especially with BA razors).

What I'm arguing against is your line of thinking that, somehow, having a unit that may possibly be not in range and may possibly miss and may possibly not penetrate and may possibly be killed/assaulted before they fire their weapons makes surefire mincemeat of the insides of a transport. There's a lot of things you haven't considered and you act as if, somehow, having Hive Guards and Genestealers would surely produce the exact same results, thus making transports useless because.. hive guard and genestealers, maaan!

And again, who uses trukks? Who uses 5-man tac squads?!


They work very well, there is a reason why these two units are considered virtually mandatory in any good tyranid list, because you'd be hard pressed to find anything better. Three hive guards unloading into one transport unless it's a ghost ark, grav-falcon, battlewagon, land raider, or an apocalypse unit is statistically going to kill it most of the time, this is good enough for me. Statistically, twenty genestealers on the charge will kill *everyone* in that transport unless it happens to be full of nobs.

And many mech orks take trukks, don't go assuming that no one does because you've never seen someone take them, they're a great way to get into someone's face ASAP. And if you plan on ever moving your razorback and the squad it's with, yes you are going to need to limit yourself to 5 men because you can't just split off your squad. I'm not saying that transports are useless, I'm just saying that a squad that is almost definitely going to be reduced in size to be able to fit into their transport and move around is actually less durable than a full sized blob squad.

What's harder to kill? 10 vets in a chimera or a full sized platoon with over a hundred guardsmen?

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in ph
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Ailaros wrote:
starsdawn wrote: the transport is offering protection that you need to deal with.

So? I have to deal with whatever my opponents bring, whether it's a transport or not. If my opponent doesn't bring transports, I have to deal with whatever my opponent brings, and if he does, I have to deal with what he brings.

I mean, you're saying that transports are good because I have to shoot at them with the things I specifically brought to deal with them before I shoot at the marines with things I specifically brought to shoot at the marines?

Gasp...




When did I say transports are good (or bad)? What I did say is that transports DO offer protection (fact) and you DO need to deal with destroying the transports first (fact) before you can assault the contents within. I have never commented on the effectiveness of transports or if they are worth it. If I remember correctly, I was stating the pros of a transport and how ridiculous the Hive Guard/genestealer combo is somehow the bane of all transports and all they contain.

For comparison, let's say that I made a statement that having transports is a foolish thing to have because I have landspeeders with assault cannons and assault terminators (let's say my termies have fleet because I use Shrike) I didn't tackle why transports are bad, just that this combination of units can kill this combination of units. By the same logic, having LRs is bad because they can get owned by melta weaponry. Or having horde is bad because you can get killed by Purifiers.

The viability of transports is not the focus of my arguments. The absurdity of this statement is:

I can't tell you how many marine, ork, and guard players thought that they were a lot safer from my tyranids in their razorbacks and chimeras. Then they find out just how easily genestealers rip through 5 man tac squads, 12 boy mobz or 10 men guard squads once the Hive Guards take away their metal bawkses.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/04 20:07:05


Violence is not the answer, but it's always a good guess. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

starsdawn wrote:What I did say is that transports DO offer protection

Yes, but some times they give the guys inside more durability, and some of the times they give the squad inside less durability. The existence of the former doesn't negate the existence of the latter. Given that the OP is looking for things that offer more durability, and that, in general, transports are a wash in this regard, it's not something the OP should be looking for.

starsdawn wrote:and you DO need to deal with destroying the transports first

This is as true as it is meaningless.

The only thing here is that your opponent needs to shoot one thing before the other. It's a matter of sequence. Any even slightly competent 40k player is going to shoot their anti-transport weapons before they shoot their anti-what's-in-the-transport weapon. That this enforces a sequence in your target prioritization has little impact on your opponent.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

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Made in ph
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Kain wrote:What's harder to kill? 10 vets in a chimera or a full sized platoon with over a hundred guardsmen?


What's harder to kill for a unit of gaunts: 5 tac marines inside a transport, or 10 footslogging tacs?

Or a mob of Ork boyz? 5 tac marines inside a transport or 10 footslogging tacs?

Hell, without your hiveguard what's harder to kill for your genestealers?

Violence is not the answer, but it's always a good guess. 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

starsdawn wrote:
Kain wrote:What's harder to kill? 10 vets in a chimera or a full sized platoon with over a hundred guardsmen?


What's harder to kill for a unit of gaunts: 5 tac marines inside a transport, or 10 footslogging tacs?

Or a mob of Ork boyz? 5 tac marines inside a transport or 10 footslogging tacs?

Hell, without your hiveguard what's harder to kill for your genestealers?

You're considering things in a vacuum. I probably have enough mass of bodies to tie up the rest of your army with my heavy support, fast attack, and HQ slots, so I can deal with your MSU mechs with my elites and troops. As for the Ork boyz, three can take a rokkit launcher and the nob can have a power klaw, the answer is probably going to surprise you when they pop the transport and then murder the five tacs inside without suffering any losses in assault.

Gaunts are supposed to wait for hive guards, zoans, and other such units to pop the transport, then they go in and murder the contents. Same goes for stealers, though with rending they can do a surprisingly admirable job at transport killing, especially with adrenal glands.

With maxed out platoon of guardsmen, you are looking at *multiple* turns of slowly, painfully uprooting them no matter what you're packing. With vets in a chimera you can kill them all in one turn. Break the piniata and then eat the candy inside. I can ideally kill three chimeras and vet squads and get six kill points with my typical list. Against blobguard however, I am looking at a long, slow, painful slugging match where my Tyranids will face the very rare prospect of actually being *outnumbered.* All to kill one single FOC slot's worth of units.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in ph
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





Ailaros wrote:
Yes, but some times they give the guys inside more durability, and some of the times they give the squad inside less durability. The existence of the former doesn't negate the existence of the latter.


And vice versa. Having weaponry that kill transport doesn't make transports useless as much as having weaponry that can deal with infantry makes infantry useless. There are pros and cons.

Back to the Hive Guard situation, having weaponry to dismantle transports doesn't make the pros of having a transport disappear.



This is as true as it is meaningless.

The only thing here is that your opponent needs to shoot one thing before the other. It's a matter of sequence. Any even slightly competent 40k player is going to shoot their anti-transport weapons before they shoot their anti-what's-in-the-transport weapon. That this enforces a sequence in your target prioritization has little impact on your opponent.


Given that killing the transport is not guaranteed, it is not meaningless. Again, with the Hive Guard situation, how much is the probability of a single Hive guard killing an AV11 transport? Even with a closeup melta shot, the transport still has a fair chance of surviving. The fact is you need to rely on luck first to get to the contents within, something you don't have to do if said contents are not inside a transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote:
You're considering things in a vacuum.


Yes, because having Hive Guard in range of a transport with genestealers lurking nearby ready to pounce is not considering things in a vacuum, is it?

What if I have killed you Hive Guard first? What if you are out of range because the pathway is blocked by previously destroyed tanks? What if your genestealers are out of assault range by an inch because you destroyed the transport and now you can't reach the units within? Or yo rolled a 1 for your assaulting in difficult terrain roll?

Do you see how absurd it is?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/04 20:34:23


Violence is not the answer, but it's always a good guess. 
   
Made in za
Fixture of Dakka




Temple Prime

Very few people take only *one* Hive Guard outside of small games. Tyranid units work best in large numbers. 2 S8 shots at a respectable BS on a hardy but cheap platform that ignores cover is good, being able to fire six such shots a turn, be too tough to be instant deathed yet have a high enough toughness to shrug off things like heavy bolters, all for only 150 points? That's a really good buy.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.



 
   
Made in nz
Bounding Assault Marine





Christchurch, New Zealand

Has anyone here actually realised how far off topic this thread has gotten?

Damn the haters, Full speed ahead!

The Steel Drakes 3500pts and counting!  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

starsdawn wrote:And vice versa.

...which is why I said it's a wash. The op wants something better, not the same.

starsdawn wrote:Given that killing the transport is not guaranteed, it is not meaningless.

But nothing is guaranteed in a game of 40k, it being based on dice. I have no more guarantee of blowing up a transport than I do of blowing up those extra two tac marines you were able to field by not plonking down a rhino.

The existence of randomness in 40k does not make transports more durable than other things.



Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

Read "The Geomides Affair", now on sale! No bolter porn. Not another inquisitor story. A book written by a dakkanought for dakkanoughts!
 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





United States

spartiatis wrote:
Ryan_A wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
imweasel wrote:
spartiatis wrote:2 Rifleman Dreads
3 Typhoon Speeders
3 Predators with lascannon sponsons

=

problems solved

Never worry about the Land Raider across the board, always fear what they carry


Excellent suggestions. Not necessary to take all of the listed options, but 2 out of 3 of these options should solve most of your long range anti-tank needs for vanilla marines.

I typically employ 2 typhoon speeders and 2 preds with las sponsons when playing vanilla marines,


I see the benefit of preds with laz and rifleman dreads, but I don't see how typhoon speeders are an effective use of points. They only will last two turns and M.launchers obliderate them. One turn speant moving, the other turn shooting. 6 M.launcher shots for that price and losing a KP isn't my style, maybe I'll go a game when I try the suicide tactic, I hope my marines can forgive me.




You simply place the typhoons behind the Predators and get cover.
I use this all the time and my speeders survive. With so many priority targets, the opponnents seem to think twice about spending a shot that even if it penetrates, has a 50% chance to be negated.
And they do need to spend a turn moving, they are fast skimmers, so they move 6 and fire everything, or 12 and one weapon. Not to mention they are excellent late-game objective grabbers.


spartiatis wrote:
Ryan_A wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
imweasel wrote:
spartiatis wrote:2 Rifleman Dreads
3 Typhoon Speeders
3 Predators with lascannon sponsons

=

problems solved

Never worry about the Land Raider across the board, always fear what they carry


Excellent suggestions. Not necessary to take all of the listed options, but 2 out of 3 of these options should solve most of your long range anti-tank needs for vanilla marines.

I typically employ 2 typhoon speeders and 2 preds with las sponsons when playing vanilla marines,


I see the benefit of preds with laz and rifleman dreads, but I don't see how typhoon speeders are an effective use of points. They only will last two turns and M.launchers obliderate them. One turn speant moving, the other turn shooting. 6 M.launcher shots for that price and losing a KP isn't my style, maybe I'll go a game when I try the suicide tactic, I hope my marines can forgive me.




You simply place the typhoons behind the Predators and get cover.
I use this all the time and my speeders survive. With so many priority targets, the opponnents seem to think twice about spending a shot that even if it penetrates, has a 50% chance to be negated.
And they do need to spend a turn moving, they are fast skimmers, so they move 6 and fire everything, or 12 and one weapon. Not to mention they are excellent late-game objective grabbers.


heartserenade wrote:I think the point was almost all vanilla SM lists (and those are the only lists that frequently uses tac squads) use Rhinos with a full tactical squad: BA Razorbacks have Assault Marines, while SW will have Grey Hunters. As for Razorbacks in Razorspam, they'll be more survivable than Rhinos against Hive Guard since they have the superior range and they do not need to stray inside the 24" range of the Hive Guard.

And Rhinos are mobile bunkers.


Griever wrote:3 Attack Bikes w/Multi-Meltas - 150

I take 9 of these in my Vulkan list. 3 dead tanks a turn. Even if you don't twin link them, that's a ton of AV firepower in a cheap platform that's really easy to hide until you need them.

They're not hugely survivable, but keeping them out of LoS is easy. Just put them behind rhinos/razorbacks/raiders, move up the board, when you're in range of a target just use their 12" move to get into melta range and poof. Or just turble boost them first turn behind terrain, and then starting in your second turn they'll all be in melta range.



Ailaros wrote:
starsdawn wrote:So you're saying that as long as you're out of range from small arms fire your troops are more survivable?

If you're in small arms range (and thus the transport is keeping your guys from being shot at by small arms - assuming it's even survived to this point), then you're in melta and plasma gun range. Instead of showing up with more infantry models, you're showing up with fewer, possibly even fewer than that due to a vehicle explosion, and you're showing up in a tiny little wad. And guess what, if you're in small arms range, you're in flamer range.

starsdawn wrote:It's like saying "Your shield doesn't make you more resistant to damage!

The shield only helps you at long range - a range at which the guys inside were unlikely to be all that seriously targeted in the first place, and the shield actually hurts you at close range when your opponent bypasses it. It's less of a shield, and more of a piece of plate glass that gives you the illusion of safety when it doesn't matter and gives you jagged shards of glass flying in your face when it does.

Were transports really a way to have overall more durability in your list, then every mech commander would instigate a highland charge with their vehicles every game. Instead, they hide in the backfield like a bunch of little girls, plinking with the longest ranged weapons they can buy. Hardly the sign of transports being more durable.

... Which brings us back to the OP. The OP wants anti-armor with survivability. Rhinos slightly increase their anti-tank power, but, at best, wash on increasing their survivability.



Thank you so much for this elaboration. I wholehearidly agree with your point made. Thank you so much. And thank you for steering the thread back to the intended purpose.

Ailaros wrote:
starsdawn wrote: the transport is offering protection that you need to deal with.

So? I have to deal with whatever my opponents bring, whether it's a transport or not. If my opponent doesn't bring transports, I have to deal with whatever my opponent brings, and if he does, I have to deal with what he brings.

I mean, you're saying that transports are good because I have to shoot at them with the things I specifically brought to deal with them before I shoot at the marines with things I specifically brought to shoot at the marines?

Gasp...



Another great point made that was very simple, thank you much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros wrote:
starsdawn wrote:What I did say is that transports DO offer protection

Yes, but some times they give the guys inside more durability, and some of the times they give the squad inside less durability. The existence of the former doesn't negate the existence of the latter. Given that the OP is looking for things that offer more durability, and that, in general, transports are a wash in this regard, it's not something the OP should be looking for.

starsdawn wrote:and you DO need to deal with destroying the transports first

This is as true as it is meaningless.

The only thing here is that your opponent needs to shoot one thing before the other. It's a matter of sequence. Any even slightly competent 40k player is going to shoot their anti-transport weapons before they shoot their anti-what's-in-the-transport weapon. That this enforces a sequence in your target prioritization has little impact on your opponent.



Very good point very well made. And thank you for attempting to keep those two on topic haha.

Doomhunter wrote:Has anyone here actually realised how far off topic this thread has gotten?

I think everyone realises how far this has gone off topic besides those two.
Ailaros wrote:
starsdawn wrote:And vice versa.

...which is why I said it's a wash. The op wants something better, not the same.

starsdawn wrote:Given that killing the transport is not guaranteed, it is not meaningless.

But nothing is guaranteed in a game of 40k, it being based on dice. I have no more guarantee of blowing up a transport than I do of blowing up those extra two tac marines you were able to field by not plonking down a rhino.

The existence of randomness in 40k does not make transports more durable than other things.



Once again, an amazing point made beautifully. I appreciate your great input and you trying to keep the thread on topic. I give you a whole batch of cookies: the green is food coloring lol!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
YOU SHALL NOT STRAY FROM THIS TOPIC!

Please you two, if you want to continue your argument, do it on your own thread or better yet private messaging. The problem with you two is that you are each thinking of things in your whole army and all of your experience, why you are only getting a small amount of info from the other (they can't relay their whole army and all of their experience to you and you can't do that to them), its futile. No more of your argument in this thread please.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/06/04 22:45:20


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On the topic of typhoon speeders:
I think mine survive well because they are just powerfull enough to get the job done, while not so nasty to trigger a "That needs to DIE!" reaction from my opponents. So when my foe is figuring out who's eating lascannons this round, they never quite make the cut. Survivability via obsurity. A lot of that has to do with target saturation.

   
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Ryan_A wrote:Light armor transports are a curse that lose battles. I find that 90% of games they do more damage to the one fielding them then help. The other ten percent is either enemies being stupid, lucky dice, or amazing tactics.


All I have to say is...

Wha?!?

I spam razorbacks, rhinos and speeders. They don't hurt me. My typical 2k space wolf army has 19kp's with 9 of them being either speeders or rhino chassis's.

You give your opponent so many targets that you have redundancy and you saturate his defenses/shooting so you can reasonably survive his alpha strike (if he has one).

If you only play 3 or 4 rhino chassis and no other threats, of course he is just going to smoke them.

Now you might not be able to do this all the time, but build your list correctly and play your cards correctly and light vehicle spam is not the issue.

Sourclams wrote:He already had more necrons than anyone else. Now he wants to have more necrons than himself.


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United States

Nevelon wrote:On the topic of typhoon speeders:
I think mine survive well because they are just powerfull enough to get the job done, while not so nasty to trigger a "That needs to DIE!" reaction from my opponents. So when my foe is figuring out who's eating lascannons this round, they never quite make the cut. Survivability via obsurity. A lot of that has to do with target saturation.

But that is a lot of mony for squishy targets with minimal firepower.

imweasel wrote:
Ryan_A wrote:Light armor transports are a curse that lose battles. I find that 90% of games they do more damage to the one fielding them then help. The other ten percent is either enemies being stupid, lucky dice, or amazing tactics.


All I have to say is...

Wha?!?

I spam razorbacks, rhinos and speeders. They don't hurt me. My typical 2k space wolf army has 19kp's with 9 of them being either speeders or rhino chassis's.

You give your opponent so many targets that you have redundancy and you saturate his defenses/shooting so you can reasonably survive his alpha strike (if he has one).

If you only play 3 or 4 rhino chassis and no other threats, of course he is just going to smoke them.

Now you might not be able to do this all the time, but build your list correctly and play your cards correctly and light vehicle spam is not the issue.

In a 2k battle, no competitive list is not ganna be able to pop 5 of those first turn EASY. What competitive list doesn't have at least 20 str 7+ weapons? I don't know if you havn't played against Guard, Tau, C:SM, Eldar, or any of their varients, because they all have 20+ str 7 weapons (half will be 8+, and another half of those will be 9+).

I suppose the reasons I am being so hard on rhinos and other light armor in this thread is because it is a THREAD ABOUT SURVIVABILITY and NOT ABOUT light armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/06/05 03:26:20


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