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Alright, so I was wondering if my thought process was correct about anti armor: My options for survivable anti armor were:
1. Devastator Squad 10 man, 3 lascanons, 1 heavy bolter- 290
Pros: Wound allocation
Cons: Expensive, Easily killed, No portability,
2. Vinilla LR- 250
Pros: Very tough, Machine Spirit, Portability, Troop transport,
Cons: Big target, Expensive
3. Predator w/ sponson Laz- 120
Pros: Cheap, Portable
Cons: Squishy except for front, Semi portable (no POTMS)

So I am thinking that Vinilla LR is best (at least for my list which has no armor or troop transport besides a rhino/rhazor/whirlwind, and autocannon dread).
Am I missing anything, I don't get why anyone would go with dev squads, and only see the cheap advantage of the pred, what am I missing?

Thanks in advance for response!

Edit:
4. Vindicator, seige sheild- 125
Pros: Cheap and powerfull
Cons: Side Squishy, semi portable (no POTMS).
How could I forget vindicator lol?

In terms of survivability, and firepower, your spot on with the land raider.
However the greatest survivability, IMHO, is in redundancy, never take just one unit to deal with anti-armour.
Take enough units to make your opponent think about what he needs to kill the most;
Is it the predator on the other side of the board? or the MM dread that just dropped down?

Thats my 2 cents anyway.
hope that helps!

Think about these too:

-> SM Bike Squad. 3 men, can take 2 meltaguns for 110 points. Can move up to 24" and get a 3+ cover save. Can move 12" and fire all weapons (relentless). Can also have a MM attack bike for +50 points. The MM has a range of 36". 12" move, 24" range.

-> Not advisable but scouts with camo cloaks and a Missle Launcer. Cheap. Survivable with cover. Can hold home field objectives.

Ryan_A wrote:Alright, so I was wondering if my thought process was correct about anti armor: My options for survivable anti armor were:
1. Devastator Squad 10 man, 3 lascanons, 1 heavy bolter- 290
Pros: Wound allocation
Cons: Expensive, Easily killed, No portability,

Fairly sure wound allocation can only be done with units with multiple wounds per model, such as Nobz and Paladins. I'm guessing you mean abalative wounds? I wouldn't overlook devastators though. They are expensive, but put them in a ruin and suddenly they're a lot more survivable.

I would echo Doomhunter with regards to the Land Raider; easily the most durable choice. Redundancy is the key word though.

Doomhunter wrote:In terms of survivability, and firepower, your spot on with the land raider.
However the greatest survivability, IMHO, is in redundancy, never take just one unit to deal with anti-armour.
Take enough units to make your opponent think about what he needs to kill the most;
Is it the predator on the other side of the board? or the MM dread that just dropped down?

Thats my 2 cents anyway.
hope that helps!

I got three vanilla LRs just finished magnetizing and painting today!! "http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/452962.page#4348670"


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Zambro wrote:Think about these too:

-> SM Bike Squad. 3 men, can take 2 meltaguns for 110 points. Can move up to 24" and get a 3+ cover save. Can move 12" and fire all weapons (relentless). Can also have a MM attack bike for +50 points. The MM has a range of 36". 12" move, 24" range.

-> Not advisable but scouts with camo cloaks and a Missle Launcer. Cheap. Survivable with cover. Can hold home field objectives.

I have NEVER used bikes. DONT GET ME WRONG, I got nothing against them, for some reason, my brain doesn't like bikes (though I do have 2 MM/HF LS) how do they compare to the Land Speeders?

I have two scout sniper/missle 5 mans which I love (need Telion to tie them together). Honestly, when I had tac squads, I only used the M.launchers, so the scouts are nice.




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liquidjoshi wrote:
Fairly sure wound allocation can only be done with units with multiple wounds per model, such as Nobz and Paladins. I'm guessing you mean abalative wounds? I wouldn't overlook devastators though. They are expensive, but put them in a ruin and suddenly they're a lot more survivable.

I would echo Doomhunter with regards to the Land Raider; easily the most durable choice. Redundancy is the key word though.

Yup, that is what I think I meant (chosing which model takes the wound). And like I said 3 vanilla lrs, so I am all over redundancy (and a squad of 5 norm and 5 assault termies for dedicated transport if I want other heavies).

The ruin idea is what I do with my scouts/ M.launcher, I don't mind having 100 points sitting there with a Mlauncher on an objective since they can cap it, but to spend SO MUCH on a dev squad to not be able to have mobile firepower is just a kick in the shins to me.

I just fear eldar (and thats why I have an double autocannon dread). But still I fear em.

If you dont like the bikes, then fair enought, no one is forcing you to use them. i was simply pointing them out as a possibility.

Compared to a land speeder with MM/HF:
Move expensive.
Move survivable (3+ armour / cover)
More manuverable. Can go 12" and still shoot everything.
Durable. Can use MM for tanks and Twin Linked BOlters for infantry.

Telion works well with scouts, but at a little more of a cost

There are two types of armor in the game.
There is light armor (AV 10-12). This consists of the vast majority of transports in the game.
Then there is heavy armor (AV 13-14). This consists of mostly battle tanks and Necrons.

The tools you use to destroy each differ greatly. Which is causing you more problems?

labmouse42 wrote:There are two types of armor in the game.
There is light armor (AV 10-12). This consists of the vast majority of transports in the game.
Then there is heavy armor (AV 13-14). This consists of mostly battle tanks and Necrons.

The tools you use to destroy each differ greatly. Which is causing you more problems?

This. There's a huge difference between struggling to blow up a Leman Russ halfway across the board, and struggling to blow up the 5-6 transports that your enemy is throwing at you.

Zambro wrote:If you dont like the bikes, then fair enought, no one is forcing you to use them. i was simply pointing them out as a possibility.

Compared to a land speeder with MM/HF:
Move expensive.
Move survivable (3+ armour / cover)
More manuverable. Can go 12" and still shoot everything.
Durable. Can use MM for tanks and Twin Linked BOlters for infantry.

Telion works well with scouts, but at a little more of a cost

No no no! Not at all! I definately like the bikes, I was just saying my brain has a mental block for some reason! I am extremely thankful that you pointed this option out! I do like the bikes, but have never used em is because my brain gets stuck on the unplausability of them in real life, however I do love when you give me this info, as it helps me become a better player and learn that much more about the game, so thanks so much and sorry if I offended when I was saying about what my subconcious thinks of bikes in the previous post. Thanks again!

What is the big difference between flat out (can move up to 24") and turbo boost (has to be botween 18"-24") is it just the minimum?

What I see (please throw something in or correct me if im wrong)
Bikes, 7 bikes 1 atk bike, 2 meltagun, 1 multi melta - 285
Pros: Can fire TL boltguns or meltaguns, have multiple models to distribute wounds to, toughness 4 (5), turbo boosters
Cons: Costly, Not as armored as LS,

LS MM/HF, 210
Pros: Very inexpensive, good armor, can fire MM and HF, deep strike, flat out, skimmer rules
Cons: Few models, not as much anti personelle, not as many shots


I thinks thats all I can think of, I would think I would run:
Bikes: 4 bikes (one of them atk bikes), 2 meltaguns, 1 multi melta, 1 combi melta-170
or
LS: 2 speeders, both have MM/HF- 140

the speeders got more armor (and both would have 3+ invul from their speed)
Bikes have moving and shooting meltas.

Which do you think is better?


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labmouse42 wrote:There are two types of armor in the game.
There is light armor (AV 10-12). This consists of the vast majority of transports in the game.
Then there is heavy armor (AV 13-14). This consists of mostly battle tanks and Necrons.

The tools you use to destroy each differ greatly. Which is causing you more problems?

Heavy armor has caused the most problems in my past (havn't played any games with my Land Raiders though, so that might change). But definately heavy armor has been my biggest hurdle in games.

@Ryan. It is to my understanding that LS moving flat out olny gets a 4+ where as turbo-boosting bikes get a 3+.

Also, 1 Krak missile from a missile Launcher can end a LS in 1 turn. With a bike squad. You just give the wound to a regular guy and get closer with your 2 MGs and 1 MM.

I played a game on VASSAL with an all bike Khan army. When i outflanked, only 1 unit of 5 bikes came in on turn 2. They killed all but the sergent and a MG, from a WHOLE army worth of shooting. 3+ armour save and the potential 3+ cover save combined with T5 is rather hard to scrub clean.
(YMMV)

Dreadnoughts can also be good anti-armor, depending on how you load them up and what flavor you use.

Their main drawback is compeating with everything else in the elite slot.

5.) tac squad, MM, meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod

- reasonably cheap
- combat squads lets you attack two different targets on arrival
- can attack anywhere on the board
- gains benefit of melta rule (and will very, very often be in melta range).
- can punch most vehicles to death the turn after they arrive
- doesn't take up HS slots (or elites, or FA for that matter)
- can benefit from combat tactics/sicarius/etc.
- scores

Really not too shabby, if you ask me.

Other great options include combi-melta sternguard which are hella expensive, but they kill whatever they shoot at dead on that turn they arrive in a pod, as well as a MM+HF dread in a pod, which only costs 150 points and gets the advantages of podding, melta, being a vehicle, and being able to absolutely beat face in close combat against most infantry units.

Can't combat squad when coming in a drop pod, per FAQ.

Dracos wrote:Can't combat squad when coming in a drop pod, per FAQ.

Actually, all the FAQ says is that you can't put half your squad in a drop pod and half your squad in normal Reserves, as you can't break down into Combat Squads while in reserves. Once you deploy, you can Combat Squad as usual.

Ryan_A wrote:Heavy armor has caused the most problems in my past (havn't played any games with my Land Raiders though, so that might change). But definately heavy armor has been my biggest hurdle in games.

The best tool in the MEQ toolkit to take out heavy armor is melta.

This is often best in the form of a suicide squad, like MM attack bikes or a MM speeder. You can also use scouts to do this as well.

So long as whatever you need dead is dead afterwords you have done well.

Only fast skimmers moving flat out can go 24 in, otherwise it is 18 in

What about a Tac squad w/ a MM and a MG in a rhino, and a sergeant with Meltabombs in case it gets popped. not as survivable as the land raider, but certainly more cost effective. An Ironclad dread with a melta and a chainfist or seismic hammer in a pod could do the trick as well, but it's also not quite as survivable.

Zambro wrote:@Ryan. It is to my understanding that LS moving flat out olny gets a 4+ where as turbo-boosting bikes get a 3+.

Also, 1 Krak missile from a missile Launcher can end a LS in 1 turn. With a bike squad. You just give the wound to a regular guy and get closer with your 2 MGs and 1 MM.

I played a game on VASSAL with an all bike Khan army. When i outflanked, only 1 unit of 5 bikes came in on turn 2. They killed all but the sergent and a MG, from a WHOLE army worth of shooting. 3+ armour save and the potential 3+ cover save combined with T5 is rather hard to scrub clean.
(YMMV)

Yup, you're right, 4+ for skimmers and 3+ for bikes, but LS are skimmers, so I suppose its a give and take.

You are also correct that a single M launcher can take out a LS, I've taken a few of em out first or second turn just like that, however, this usually means a whole squad doesn't get to use their main weapons on my other stuff, and the LS are also safe from small arms frie. Wheras bikers can get chewed up by small arms fire and large weapons, so I suppose each has their give and take in that sense too.

I have always chewed up bikes with small arms and one or two large weapons anytime they come around to me, but of course that is just my army, I am sure they are very effective against other armies.

You raise some very good points, I'll have to get some standinds and try em out a couple games.

Thanks for the info!


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Nevelon wrote:Dreadnoughts can also be good anti-armor, depending on how you load them up and what flavor you use.

Their main drawback is compeating with everything else in the elite slot.

Before I had my sternguard and LRs, my dreadnought was my main anti-tank. It had TL laz and missles. Now that I got the LRs, I threw some autocannons for light armor popping, but you are quite right, dreads sure can pop heavy armor in a couple of turns, thanks for reminding me about them.


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Ailaros wrote:5.) tac squad, MM, meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod

- reasonably cheap
- combat squads lets you attack two different targets on arrival
- can attack anywhere on the board
- gains benefit of melta rule (and will very, very often be in melta range).
- can punch most vehicles to death the turn after they arrive
- doesn't take up HS slots (or elites, or FA for that matter)
- can benefit from combat tactics/sicarius/etc.
- scores

Really not too shabby, if you ask me.

Other great options include combi-melta sternguard which are hella expensive, but they kill whatever they shoot at dead on that turn they arrive in a pod, as well as a MM+HF dread in a pod, which only costs 150 points and gets the advantages of podding, melta, being a vehicle, and being able to absolutely beat face in close combat against most infantry units.

Very good point, I never really have looking at tac squads for melta weapons, usually just threw on m launchers and used them as m launcher turrets. The thing is, with that you are spending 240 pts for 2 five man squads which each only have 1 meltagun shot and if they survive (which they probably won't if the enemy sees the MM) the MM can shoot the next turn. But yes, without a doubt it is a viable tactic. I just hate to throw away 240 pts after one turn for only 2 meltagun shots. I have 1 combi-melta gun on my second sternguard squad, the first one has pedro kantor, and the last one is for backup. I like the dread idea much more, but still something to think about as it is a troop slot. Thanks!


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labmouse42 wrote: The best tool in the MEQ toolkit to take out heavy armor is melta.

This is often best in the form of a suicide squad, like MM attack bikes or a MM speeder. You can also use scouts to do this as well.

So long as whatever you need dead is dead afterwords you have done well.

I know, but I hate to throw away 200+ pts and 2 KPs on the first turn for a 50/50 chance of blowing up the vehicle. Thats just me of course, I know it is common practice for many, I'll try it out some time, thanks for the idea.


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theonetruedonut wrote:What about a Tac squad w/ a MM and a MG in a rhino, and a sergeant with Meltabombs in case it gets popped. not as survivable as the land raider, but certainly more cost effective. An Ironclad dread with a melta and a chainfist or seismic hammer in a pod could do the trick as well, but it's also not quite as survivable.

Im not sure how cost effective it is.
I mean a tac squad w/ MM and MG and MeltaBs costs 180
The rhino costs 35
Thats at the very least in barebones 215. And that is for a very squishy 2 KPs, and 11 armor. Which may get to shoot the MG on the first turn, and maybe if the squad survives and the vehicle doesn't move, get to shoot the MM.

for 35 pts more, I get a 14 armor vehicle with 2 TL laz that can fire 60" (POTMS after moving 12").

Of course I don't get scoring units, and have to pay another 250 for my sternguard, so the other option would be to have 2 tac squads and 2 rhinos vs 1 LR and sternguard, Im sure it'd be a close call for which would be the best.

Thanks for the idea.

I think the MM bike/speeder thing comes down to preference. They both do the same job, with different perks/weaknesses. I often include a MM speeder in my army. It gets a lot of work done for the points I spend on it and I like the way it looks. Barring corner cases, I believe that you could just swap them out in any list and it would work out just the same. They are close enough together in effectiveness that how the dice gods are feeling is more important then which one you bring to the table.

As for the tactical squads, don't think of them as paying extra points for anti-armor, but think of what you are doing with the points you already spent on them. All of my lists have at least 2 tac squads. One with ML/F the other with MM/M, both in rhinos. The ML hangs back to cover my objectives, while the box-o-melta pushes forward into enemy ground. Your basic tac squad is not a shiny as the elite specialist units, but give them the tools and they will get the job done. And you are fielding two of them anyway, might as well put them to work.

Not to mention you can put a combi-melta and/or PF on the tac squad to make them more tank-killy.

I guess the point here is anti-tank is spread on all FOC slots of C:SM. Sometimes all your anti-tank is on FA or Elites and all anti-infantry is on HS. Sometimes the reverse is true.

Ryan_A wrote:... if they survive (which they probably won't if the enemy sees the MM) the MM can shoot the next turn. But yes, without a doubt it is a viable tactic. I just hate to throw away 240 pts after one turn for only 2 meltagun shots.

That's the wonderful thing about drop pods. They ALLOW you to use suicide tactics, but they don't REQUIRE you to. You can always play more conservatively with your choice of locations and whether to pod or not.

Really, think about it as a regular melta-armed tac squad in a rhino. They both wind up in the same place by the bottom of turn 2, but your opponent didn't get to shoot at either the transports or the marines inside before they got to where you want them. Just like how you don't have to do suicide missions with rhinos, so you also don't have to do them with drop pods.

As for spending 240 points for a couple of melta shots, look at the rest of your codex. That's not a bad deal.

I'd argue that 5 devastators with 4 missiles is the most durable. Armored targets can be killed by one anti tank shot, many of which are ranged.
How many codexes really take long ranged anti infantry also?

I'd also say that your list really determines what is most survivable. If you are mech heavy, armored support would probably be better, if you take a mixed force I'd do devastators.

For lite armour/transports I think rifleman dreds are good for TL str 7 shots. Yes please!

+1 to rifleman dreads. 2 Dreads will reliable kill most if not all of the enemies transport. They have 6" move and shoot with everything, which is twin linked. av12 too

2 Rifleman Dreads
3 Typhoon Speeders
3 Predators with lascannon sponsons

=

problems solved

Never worry about the Land Raider across the board, always fear what they carry

Nevelon wrote:I think the MM bike/speeder thing comes down to preference. They both do the same job, with different perks/weaknesses. I often include a MM speeder in my army. It gets a lot of work done for the points I spend on it and I like the way it looks. Barring corner cases, I believe that you could just swap them out in any list and it would work out just the same. They are close enough together in effectiveness that how the dice gods are feeling is more important then which one you bring to the table.

As for the tactical squads, don't think of them as paying extra points for anti-armor, but think of what you are doing with the points you already spent on them. All of my lists have at least 2 tac squads. One with ML/F the other with MM/M, both in rhinos. The ML hangs back to cover my objectives, while the box-o-melta pushes forward into enemy ground. Your basic tac squad is not a shiny as the elite specialist units, but give them the tools and they will get the job done. And you are fielding two of them anyway, might as well put them to work.

I agree with your summary of bike/speeder, what do you mean on corner cases? Speeder bikes are better there ya?

I personally hate rhinos, armor 11 KPs carry 10 troops? NO THANKS lol. Thats just me though, my old army was great, except when it came to two things, heavy armor, and KPs. So I am a little obsesive over it if you havn't noticed loloololol. I don't field any tac squads anymore, I used to field 3, but they really just say there with an M.Launcher an objective as a M.launcher turret.


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heartserenade wrote:Not to mention you can put a combi-melta and/or PF on the tac squad to make them more tank-killy.

I guess the point here is anti-tank is spread on all FOC slots of C:SM. Sometimes all your anti-tank is on FA or Elites and all anti-infantry is on HS. Sometimes the reverse is true.

I never gave my tac squad meltas or PFs, that is a big mistake on my part, I see that would have been good. But like I said, I hate squishy, and tac squads and rhinos are just too squishy for me lol.

Very good point, the C:SM is without a doubt the most well versed of the codexes (codexi?).


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Ailaros wrote: That's the wonderful thing about drop pods. They ALLOW you to use suicide tactics, but they don't REQUIRE you to. You can always play more conservatively with your choice of locations and whether to pod or not.

Really, think about it as a regular melta-armed tac squad in a rhino. They both wind up in the same place by the bottom of turn 2, but your opponent didn't get to shoot at either the transports or the marines inside before they got to where you want them. Just like how you don't have to do suicide missions with rhinos, so you also don't have to do them with drop pods.

As for spending 240 points for a couple of melta shots, look at the rest of your codex. That's not a bad deal.

Good point, though I am not a big fan of drop pods, either they get their use and you suicided, or they don't get their use and your troops arrived where they wouldn've originally. But as all of you are aware, I have a really conservative playstyle, I love each one of my troops and I can't conciously send them to their death

Maybe Ill throw a coke can in my army and call it a drop pod for a couple practice game to see how it goes. Very good point with the "same place, except they weren't getting shot out."

Not a bad deal at all.


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LValx wrote:I'd argue that 5 devastators with 4 missiles is the most durable. Armored targets can be killed by one anti tank shot, many of which are ranged.
How many codexes really take long ranged anti infantry also?

I'd also say that your list really determines what is most survivable. If you are mech heavy, armored support would probably be better, if you take a mixed force I'd do devastators.

I definately wouldn't say the most durable (one light arms squad focused on them and they start to go when the dice are rolled), however for only 150 pts, I would say without a doubt the most bang for your buck. I mean 150 pts for 4 M.launcher shots a turn either armor or troops, damn. Great point made my friend. I would go with 4 M.launcher and 1 laz. Thats only 201 pts for 4 M.launcher and a laz.

IN FACT! I have 2 extra M.launcher troops that I have sitting far back in the desk that I haven't a use for since I converted to sternguard! THANKS SO MUCH! I got a lot of M.launcher bits sitting around, and some troops I ain't using, this is perfect! You just gave me $20, Thanks much!


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Da grey Knight wrote:For lite armour/transports I think rifleman dreds are good for TL str 7 shots. Yes please!

Definately! I got one dreadnought, and he's... drumroll please... a rifleman dred. Ya, they are just amazing.

You say you dont use tac squads anymore? What do you use?

If this is for an army list, post your list up and we can help with building synergy into the list.

Zambro wrote:+1 to rifleman dreads. 2 Dreads will reliable kill most if not all of the enemies transport. They have 6" move and shoot with everything, which is twin linked. av12 too

Its hard for my army to use more than one dread, my main army layout is Pedro Kantor, 3 sternguard (10x) so anymore than 1 dred, its cutting into my main army.

But ya, AV12 with 4 TL 7str 4AP shots, HELL YA! and whats that, only 125 pts? WOO!


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spartiatis wrote:2 Rifleman Dreads
3 Typhoon Speeders
3 Predators with lascannon sponsons

=

problems solved

Never worry about the Land Raider across the board, always fear what they carry

-

Personally, the typhoons have never worked for me, too squishy. I have never used preds, I need to try them out, 85 pts for 2 laz and autocanon? ya, thats pretty damn good, just the weapons cost more than that for a dev squad. But once again, squishy sides.

And I do love rifleman dreads, but its shooting a nerf gun at a US striker when it comes to AV14.

You got your points wrong, for Auto/las pred it's 120 points.
Cheaper than the rifleman dread, but can only shoot 1 weapon when they move

Zambro wrote:You say you dont use tac squads anymore? What do you use?

If this is for an army list, post your list up and we can help with building synergy into the list.

My newest army layout uses 2 five man scouts (4snips 1M.Launch).

My newest list:1850pts
HQ: Pedro Kantor
Troops:
1. 4Snip scouts, 1 M.launcher
2. 4Snip scouts, 1 M.launcher
Elites:
1. 10Sternguard (special ammo and they count as scoring)
2. 10 Sternguard (special ammo and they count as scoring)
3. 9 Sternguard (special ammo) 1 Combi bolter (special ammo) (scoring)
Heavy Support:
1. Vanilla LR
2. vanilla LR
3. Vanilla LR

I have only used this once, it dominated against the orks. (only one game, and this list is ganna sucks against eldar is my bet).
But ya, so I am looking for advisable options that I might sub for a vanilla LR if I want one of my sternguards to sit on an objective.

What else I got:
30 jump marines and the sprue weapons
5 reg termies
5 lightning claw termies
1 whirlwind/rhino/rhazorback (1 tank, with the possibilities to throw on the turrets)
1 rifleman dread (have other weapons in bits box)
2 MM/HF LS (have tornado sprue)
1 TFC
2 M.launcher tac marines, 2 flamer tac marines, 1 seargent tac marine, 2 bolter/chansword scouts (the other 8 got stolen at my local gaming place ) And about 3 more tac squad troops that I havn't put any weapons on.

I plan to give 2 or 3 m.launchers to either the flamers or my extra tac troopers.


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Zambro wrote:You got your points wrong, for Auto/las pred it's 120 points.
Cheaper than the rifleman dread, but can only shoot 1 weapon when they move

Yup, I was looking at heavy bolter sponsons, thanks for the correction, not looking as yummy, but still 120 for 2 laz and auto, 2laz and 2 m.launcher on heavy support troops would cost 100 for just the weapons (190 with the standard 5 troop and they cant move and shoot at all).

I still think it is better for heavy armor compared to the rifleman, but the rifleman is ganna be a great light armor popper if I wanna sub it and a pred for a LR, that could be nice. (but the armor on both is kinda low and I hate to give so many KPs away).