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DemetriDominov wrote:Maybe we haven't been using drones to spy on them before, why else would a new stealth version fly over Iran, did the older ones get shot down?

We have been using drones in the vicinity of Iran for the duration of the conflicts in Iraq/Afghanistan.

It's also been an unspoken "fact" that Iran's Revolutionary Guard have been smuggling arms and supplying training/expertise to the insurgencies in each of those combat zones.

So I reiterate:
If Iran could seize control of our drones, they would have done so long before now.
If we had proof that Iran could seize control of our drones, we would have accused them of aggression against US military assets in a combat zone long before now.

Uhlan wrote:

While the "kid with a laptop and WiFi" statement might sound like a bit of hyperbole, the UAV loss that occured last year over Iran is thought in some circles to have been "hijacked" using this method despite the government issuing a statement about a simple malfunction.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this is a very possible scenario. While not quite the same thing and an order of magnitude apart, anyone who plays with RC vehicles of any kind understands the basic premise.

True AI would mitigate this kind of hijacking to a large degree.

My friends and I used to get together and talk about RC vehicles, We came to the conclusion that even old, unencrypted microwave systems were nearly impossible even receive data from, let alone send data to even in the best of conditions unless you were actually operating them, even if you were using the right equipment. With that knowledge in hand our RCs flying club determined that the only credible risk to our systems were background interference and mechanical issues. Sometimes at our flying club we would discuss other things, like Warhammer 40k, how Jimmy's Sisters are useless as allies, and what vehicles counted as UAVs in 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:
If Iran could seize control of our drones, they would have done so long before now.
If we had proof that Iran could seize control of our drones, we would have accused them of aggression against US military assets in a combat zone long before now.

That's not necessarily true. We knew Russians were flying MiGs in Korea and never mentioned that tiny act of war until decades later.

I've always been under the impression that the reason that we didn't mention it was we didn't have any irrefutable proof of the Russians piloting MiGs at the time.

Kanluwen wrote:And those circles are consisted of individuals wearing tinfoil hats.

The only people who really believe that Iran was capable of "hijacking" that UAV is Iran. It was a simple malfunction, otherwise Iran would have been hijacking our drones for years now.

The Government of Iran is not THAT technologically inept. It is no real secret that they operate well beyond Afghanistans western border and there is evidence into Iraq as well.

While I value your opinion quite often Kanluwen, I think you under estimate the power to do this especially by a determined state sanctioned entity. I can almost assure you that the Drone had been observed over time (days, weeks?) before this happened. The secret of these Drones is that they operate unobserved using stealth tech. Once it is sighted, a coordinated effort to "grab" the drone could take place. Perhaps by breaking the link with powerful RF, something akin to ECCM/EPM.

They don't need to take every drone, just one will do... I'm sure they have "tolerated" incursions since the beginning of the war in Afghanistan. And while this is admittedly additional speculation I don't believe this is their first attempt, but since the drone was captured intact the US had to admit the loss.

Simply randomly finding a lost drone in the wilds of Iran woulld be nearly impossible considering the time frame. Though the image of a bunch of Iranian pastoralists *cough* running around trying to catch the big kite is amusing...

A lucky break perhaps, but not impossible.

Not-to-mention, if you look at the photos of the recovered Drone it doesn't appear to have undergone a severe crash landing.

I concede it is all speculation (and speculation is fun), but it is possible.

Uhlan wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And those circles are consisted of individuals wearing tinfoil hats.

The only people who really believe that Iran was capable of "hijacking" that UAV is Iran. It was a simple malfunction, otherwise Iran would have been hijacking our drones for years now.

The Government of Iran is not THAT technologically inept. It is no real secret that they operate well beyond Afghanistans western border and there is evidence into Iraq as well.

You would be surprised how technologically inept they are.

While I value your opinion quite often Kanluwen, I think you under estimate the power to do this especially by a determined state sanctioned entity. I can almost assure you that the Drone had been observed over time (days, weeks?) before this happened. The secret of these Drones is that they operate unobserved using stealth tech. Once it is sighted, a coordinated effort to "grab" the drone could take place. Perhaps by breaking the link with powerful RF, something akin to ECCM/EPM.

They don't need to take every drone, just one will do... I'm sure they have "tolerated" incursions since the beginning of the war in Afghanistan. And while this is admittedly additional speculation I don't believe this is their first attempt, but since the drone was captured intact the US had to admit the loss.

Simply randomly finding a lost drone in the wilds of Iran woulld be nearly impossible considering the time frame. Though the image of a bunch of Iranian pastoralists *cough* running around trying to catch the big kite is amusing...

A lucky break perhaps, but not impossible.

But you see, when it comes down to it?

That's all it was. They were tracking a drone and it went down. These drones are stealthy, certainly, but if they're putting as much effort into it as you claim--it's not too hard to be relatively certain as to where it would come down if you can get eyes on.

Not-to-mention, if you look at the photos of the recovered Drone it doesn't appear to have undergone a severe crash landing.

"Losing guidance systems" does not necessarily mean it will make a spectacular crash landing. Look at photographs of crashes, and you'll see that sometimes even in the case of fatal crashes the aircraft will be relatively intact.

I concede it is all speculation (and speculation is fun), but it is possible.

Speculation needs to take into account the history of the party making the claim. A few months prior, Iran claimed to have downed another US drone and then backtracked claiming it was a "training exercise".

AustonT wrote:

zeshin wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:So why is it that no race has mastered the idea of vehicles that are remote controlled save lives?
Surely the eldar and tau would make use of this technology?
I can understand that imperium but why no one else?

UAV's can be hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi. Do you want an unmanned Thunderhawk hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi?

I'll just leave this here.

Yes it was hyperbole but based on this event. But the potential is there for an advanced enough intrusion to actually work given the resources of a technologically advanced nation. Also it was intended as a joke.

zeshin wrote:

AustonT wrote:

zeshin wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:So why is it that no race has mastered the idea of vehicles that are remote controlled save lives?
Surely the eldar and tau would make use of this technology?
I can understand that imperium but why no one else?

UAV's can be hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi. Do you want an unmanned Thunderhawk hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi?

I'll just leave this here.

Yes it was hyperbole but based on this event. But the potential is there for an advanced enough intrusion to actually work given the resources of a technologically advanced nation. Also it was intended as a joke.

And understood as such.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kanluwen

Lol, while I don't subscribe to your view of Iranian capabilities, I submit that seeing a Stealthy Drone is the hard part... getting it down is much, much easier. Electronically turning the drone dumb (dumber?) would be relatively easy by comparison. Hijacking it, taking control isn't out of the realm of possibility either. However speculative.

I hope I haven't derailed the thread... My apologies.

zeshin wrote:

AustonT wrote:

zeshin wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:So why is it that no race has mastered the idea of vehicles that are remote controlled save lives?
Surely the eldar and tau would make use of this technology?
I can understand that imperium but why no one else?

UAV's can be hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi. Do you want an unmanned Thunderhawk hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi?

I'll just leave this here.

Yes it was hyperbole but based on this event. But the potential is there for an advanced enough intrusion to actually work given the resources of a technologically advanced nation. Also it was intended as a joke.

your TV gets CBS, has that convinced you it can transmit your home videos to your neighbors on CBS?

Kanluwen wrote:If we had proof that Iran could seize control of our drones, we would have accused them of aggression against US military assets in a combat zone long before now.

Didn't realise Iran was a combat zone, must have missed that memo. And quite frankly, they are well within their rights to take down aircraft if they are in their airspace illegally. And as has been said, what are the chances of them just stumbling on a crashed drone in the middle of the desert?


Back OT, Didn't the imperium have a war against some AI before the Great Crusade, like full on Terminator Judgement Day stuff. You could understand their reluctance to use AI after that.

I'm hoping the next Tau codex will have moved their drone tech forward and it becomes closer to the tech of Iain M Banks' Culture and the drones in that. That would be me signed up for building a Tau army.

The Interex maybe that sound familiar.

dæl wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:If we had proof that Iran could seize control of our drones, we would have accused them of aggression against US military assets in a combat zone long before now.

Didn't realise Iran was a combat zone, must have missed that memo. And quite frankly, they are well within their rights to take down aircraft if they are in their airspace illegally. And as has been said, what are the chances of them just stumbling on a crashed drone in the middle of the desert?

If you're going to jump in and make snarky remarks, please pay attention to what you were responding to.

Iran's Revolutionary Guard are well-known to be participating in the combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The drone which went down was reportedly patrolling along the Iraq/Afghanistan border and using a long range sensor suite to spy upon Iran's nuclear program at the same time when its guidance systems failed and it went down. Given that the Pentagon announced almost immediately that they had satellite coverage of the exact site of the downage, it makes Iran's claims to have "brought it down" even more suspect.

Back OT, Didn't the imperium have a war against some AI before the Great Crusade, like full on Terminator Judgement Day stuff. You could understand their reluctance to use AI after that.

Yes. It was the Iron Men which had been created by the Imperium. There is hintings that there may have been some Chaotic influence in this, as in the first Gaunt's Ghost novel we find an intact STC for creating the Iron Men which has been "twisted".

I'm hoping the next Tau codex will have moved their drone tech forward and it becomes closer to the tech of Iain M Banks' Culture and the drones in that. That would be me signed up for building a Tau army.

Doubtful. The Tau drones are very much representative of what we have today; where they are controlled by operators and have limited routines when operating without a controller. They are able to kind of "connect" their processing and form a rudimentary kind of artificial intelligence to perform basic combat tactics.

Kanluwen wrote:
If you're going to jump in and make snarky remarks, please pay attention to what you were responding to.

Iran's Revolutionary Guard are well-known to be participating in the combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. The drone which went down was reportedly patrolling along the Iraq/Afghanistan border and using a long range sensor suite to spy upon Iran's nuclear program at the same time when its guidance systems failed and it went down. Given that the Pentagon announced almost immediately that they had satellite coverage of the exact site of the downage, it makes Iran's claims to have "brought it down" even more suspect.

140 miles from the border isn't patrolling the border. And just because America is engaged in paramilitary activity somewhere does not make it a combat zone. Also, I reserve every right to make "snarky" comments on stories I have been following for 6 months, such as the drone, and 10 years, such as the occupations in the middle east. But these comments are probably best aired in the OT section rather than here, after all if this stuff is 40K background it's really ancient history.

Yes. It was the Iron Men which had been created by the Imperium. There is hintings that there may have been some Chaotic influence in this, as in the first Gaunt's Ghost novel we find an intact STC for creating the Iron Men which has been "twisted".

That's interesting that they were tainted, never knew that. Is there much fluff about the Iron Men?

Doubtful. The Tau drones are very much representative of what we have today; where they are controlled by operators and have limited routines when operating without a controller. They are able to kind of "connect" their processing and form a rudimentary kind of artificial intelligence to perform basic combat tactics.

That's a shame, if any of the armies should be advancing technologically from book to book it should be them. Especially if they now have the squats on board, broadsides on bikes ftw

Asks about UAVs in a dystopian future setting.
Ends up talking about the Middle East...
Dakka is something special...

purplefood wrote:Asks about UAVs in a dystopian future setting.
Ends up talking about the Middle East...
Dakka is something special...

*sigh* I pride myself on NOT derailing threads, but I seem to have participated, if not started the accident...

Sorry about that fellas.

Uhlan wrote:

purplefood wrote:Asks about UAVs in a dystopian future setting.
Ends up talking about the Middle East...
Dakka is something special...

*sigh* I pride myself on NOT derailing threads, but I seem to have participated, if not started the accident...

Sorry about that fellas.

It's no ones fault. The internet is full of pedants with inconsistent senses of humor and perspective.

And as far as the original question goes, I would whole heatedly agree with the Tau being the closest to modern drone use, and in fact probably a road map for our own future as we graduate from remote control to fully autonomous (read AI) drones capable of reacting like a person. I mean the Tau drones are roughly equivalent to Tau warriors in basic reasoning and ability in game, and the larger drones are on a similar capability level to piloted Piranhas. Of course I do have a soft spot for my second army.

Whilst fluffwise there isn't really a precedent, I can see the Imperium using some kind of UAV, but it won't be a "drone" per se. I can see, essentially a small plane with a servitor permanently wired into it. This would kind of fit as a "UAV" since the servitor is more machine than man anyway, whilst still fit in with the Imperium and Ad Mech being a bit "iffy" about AI.

Of course there are UAVs... how else do you explain that as the army commander you can see all of the opposing forces at all times

Flinty wrote:Of course there are UAVs... how else do you explain that as the army commander you can see all of the opposing forces at all times

Clearly I'm some kinda of deity-like figure...

Alexzandvar wrote:Why would the Imperium would waste precious metal on a UAV when a man is far, far, cheaper!

This is indeed the answer. None of the factors which have made UAVs a desirable military choice in the real world (commanders valuing the lives of their own men, public disapproval of high friendly casualty counts) apply to the Imperium of Mankind. Moreover, it has been established that the Imperium, for nebulous borrowed-from-Dune reasons, imposes strict limitations on the development and use of AI.

This is not a setting which attempts to model "plausible" hi-tech warfare, this is a setting in which men in gaudily-coloured armour travel light years in spaceships to fight each other in personal combat. With chainsaws.

zeshin wrote:

AustonT wrote:

zeshin wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:So why is it that no race has mastered the idea of vehicles that are remote controlled save lives?
Surely the eldar and tau would make use of this technology?
I can understand that imperium but why no one else?

UAV's can be hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi. Do you want an unmanned Thunderhawk hacked by a kid with a laptop and WiFi?

I'll just leave this here.

Yes it was hyperbole but based on this event. But the potential is there for an advanced enough intrusion to actually work given the resources of a technologically advanced nation. Also it was intended as a joke.

Only the video feed was hacked. Nothing more, and only because the comm link was unprotected.

If, say, China were to get in on this "UAV hacking" shindig, then perhaps we could have trouble. They already may or may not be behind some extremely advanced attacks on the DoD and other agencies in the US, though they aren't in any warzone we currently use drones in (well, as far as I know they aren't).

On topic, Only the Tau actually need drones. Think about it:

-Necrons are already mostly drones, as the pilots on Tomb Blades and the fliers are machine and use insane programing like an AI would.
-Orks couldn't give less of a damn.
-IoM is too dumb and short-sighted.
-Eldar use Wraithguard/lords/seers as sort of drones.
-Chaos has daemons which don't really ever die, and the Dark Mechanicus routinely binds daemons to machines giving those machines a sort of daemonic AI.

The Tau have no psychic ability to make wraithguard, their soldiers are not already machines, and unlike the IoM and Orks they care about losing troops, and they can't really possess their machines with undying/reusable daemons. The Tau need drones, otherwise they would cease to have a functional military after a while.

English Assassin wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:Why would the Imperium would waste precious metal on a UAV when a man is far, far, cheaper!

This is indeed the answer. None of the factors which have made UAVs a desirable military choice in the real world (commanders valuing the lives of their own men, public disapproval of high friendly casualty counts) apply to the Imperium of Mankind. Moreover, it has been established that the Imperium, for nebulous borrowed-from-Dune reasons, imposes strict limitations on the development and use of AI.

This is not a setting which attempts to model "plausible" hi-tech warfare, this is a setting in which men in gaudily-coloured armour travel light years in spaceships to fight each other in personal combat. With chainsaws.

Exactly, there is no motivation for anyone to use it, considering for clearing mine field or riding of explosives can simply be done with a Leman Russ with a Siege Sled.