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dogma wrote:

But it still leaves the question "What is freedom?"

In part, the right to ask impossible to answer questions about apparently simple philosophical concepts without being strung up as a persistent trouble maker.

Orlanth wrote:
In part, the right to ask impossible to answer questions about apparently simple philosophical concepts without being strung up as a persistent trouble maker.

It isn't a difficult question to answer, really. It is either the ability to do a thing, or the ability to do a thing without consequence. People get turned around because of the consequence bit, and the resultant questions regarding appropriateness.

See, took me only 3 sentences, which leaves one to wonder what everyone else is doing. Probably making gak up because they want to feel righteous, that's what most do (Which you'll try and turn around, but I expected that.).

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
In part, the right to ask impossible to answer questions about apparently simple philosophical concepts without being strung up as a persistent trouble maker.

It isn't a difficult question to answer, really. It is either the ability to do a thing, or the ability to do a thing without consequence. People get turned around because of the consequence bit, and the resultant questions regarding appropriateness.

See, took me only 3 sentences, which leaves one to wonder what everyone else is doing. Probably making gak up because they want to feel righteous, that's what most do (Which you'll try and turn around, but I expected that.).

Freedom is not without consequence. So for example the freedom to make love to whoever you want rather than be forced into a strict marriage partnership is a form of 'freedom', but it will not absolve you of the potential consequence of pregnancy without proper precautions. Or alternately you can be given freedom from absolute speed limits on the autobahn, but there can be consequences for going too fast.

Other countries allow you the freedom to prostitute yourself and smoke weed.

Are they more free than us?

Orlanth wrote:
Freedom is not without consequence.

Then I'm not free to kill, and murder doesn't exist.

Bad objection.

d-usa wrote:Other countries allow you the freedom to prostitute yourself and smoke weed.

Are they more free than us?

In those specific respects yes, the problem with the term freedom is it needs qualifying. Hence why the European Code of Human Rights grants freedom of speech, press, religion, assembly etc. The term freedom itself is a silly goal to chase as you can end up in lawlessness, although in a Utopian society there may not be a need for law to exist, so in that situation an absolute freedom could be allowed.

dæl wrote:

d-usa wrote:Other countries allow you the freedom to prostitute yourself and smoke weed.

Are they more free than us?

In those specific respects yes.

So the song is a lie!

d-usa wrote:

dæl wrote:

d-usa wrote:Other countries allow you the freedom to prostitute yourself and smoke weed.

Are they more free than us?

In those specific respects yes.

So the song is a lie!

So was can't buy me love, especially in those countries more "free" than yourselves.

I guess the conservative response would be:

Well, you are always 'free' to leave if you don't like it!

I am genuinely struggling to conceive of a person who would genuinely care if some children sung a corny patriotic song. I am struggling just as much to conceive of a person who would genuinely care if such a song were banned.

This whole thing just reads like the most ridiculous nonsense. Why is anyone choosing this as an issue to fight over?

Because you either love America and it's corny patriotic songs or you hate America!

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Freedom is not without consequence.

Then I'm not free to kill, and murder doesn't exist.

Bad objection.

Your confusing yourself, for murder not to exist you must be free to kill.
This can occur, for example soldiers are given release to open fire. 'Weapons free'. That is an element of freedom there, and it results in non-murders, yet even so there are consequences for having taken life.

Objection still holds. Try again.

Orlanth wrote:
Your confusing yourself, for murder not to exist you must be free to kill.

No, wrong.

First the word is "You're" if you're (See what I did there?) going to correct me, don't feth up.

Second, still wondering what freedom is.

What we really need them singing is Weasel Stomping Day.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Objection still holds. Try again.

Nope, lazy, and weak. Nice try though. But I'm better (smarter).

Youre extra arrogant today then.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Your confusing yourself, for murder not to exist you must be free to kill.

First the word is "You're" if you're (See what I did there?) going to correct me, don't feth up.

Actually if you were 'smarter', you might try have a go at the logic rather than the speedtyping. Perhaps you cannot.

For murder not to exist - i.e a killing not being murder
You must be free to kill - i.e. given the freedom to commit an act which if not enabled would be murder.

dogma wrote:
No, wrong.

If you are going to have pretentions of superiority, please actually address what is written for a change. Otherwise get off your high horse.
Besides we are used to your flat denials without support enough times already. Its you're schtick.
You say 'no' or 'wrong' and don't say why, and expect people to just believe you.
I brought you up on this before, without result, and am still not buying that, nor should I.

dogma wrote:
Second, still wondering what freedom is.

Not wondering if I will get a reasonable definition from you. Your last one was way off. Still stranger things have happened. You are not dumb, I wont accuse you of that, but you are not half as smart as you think. If you were you wouldn't post the way you do.

What nonsense. If god didn't bless america, then why was jesus born here?

If it makes you feel better they could sing patriotic songs about Britain?
We have some good ones about seas and oceans and such...

Its a topic I've long felt strongly about ever since during a talk with the missus 4 or 5 years ago she told me that in her elementary school AND kindergarten (she said she specifically remembers a girl in Kindergarten who was a Jehovah witness because she used to just sit there when everyone else stood up!) they had to get up and pledge allegiance to the flag and say "Indivisible under God" and all this gak. And it really did stun me. I couldn't believe that they had children doing it, and I found it to be a really odious story. It felt almost like Red China style brainwashing.. she mentioned something about it being introduced in the 50s to combat the spread of communism or something?!

Anyway, I think most Europeans would find the idea as repellent as I did. Do you still do it in most kids schools? Bear in mind she is 8 years younger than me so.. it was only the 90s she was still in school.

But I digress, I noticed it living in America and in the American military facilities and such.. the US seems to me to be literally the only Western nation that is still obsessed with this gak. Like some sort of strange paranoia?

Freedom this and freedom that.. God bless America, and how many times a day do you hear someone on TV in the States say "This is the greatest country on earth!"

Basically, I love America and Americans, but on this score it makes you guys look like total dicks. I told you I was arguing with a bloke about Religion in the pub once in Virginia and I said "Why do you think there are so many more deeply Religious people over here? and he said "Oh cos in America we are allowed to choose our own Religion!" as If that's not the case almost everywhere else?!

Basically endlessly harping on about this gak makes you look either ridiculously ignorant (think everyone in other countries lives in servitude/slavery) or ridiculously rude (think your way better than everyone else and always likes to mention it) and I think that lessening it is always a good thing.

I would be disgusted if they made my 6 year old kid stand up once a week salute a British flag and sing God save the Queen, and I fething love the Queen! I just don't like the idea of forcing that stuff onto kids..

The "flag pledge" was invented by a flag salesman in order to sell more flags to school. Capitalism at its finests.

Whats so amazingly aweomse is how we don't care what Europeans think on the subject.

Is it stupid? Maybe. So's life.

So what? Its our country and our rules.

The concept of your Royal Family is utterly stupid, but if you like thats schtick then fine by me. I just want a set of the cool dragoon armor I see so I can wear on Halloween, or maybe the next time I have to go to the DMV.

The Lee Greenwood song is horrible.

They should sing Neil Diamond's America or God Bless America or Blame Canada.

kronk wrote:The Lee Greenwood song is horrible.

They should sing Neil Diamond's America or God Bless America or Blame Canada.

ideally all three, then we give them muskets and sent them off to conquer Canada. All your tasty maple glazed donuts are belong to us!!!

I just realized - is that the "new" song from the 80's or 90s? Yea its as the Brits say...bullocks. Now lets all bury our differences and invade France.

Frazzled wrote:Whats so amazingly aweomse is how we don't care what Europeans think on the subject.

Is it stupid? Maybe. So's life.

So what? Its our country and our rules.

The concept of your Royal Family is utterly stupid, but if you like thats schtick then fine by me. I just want a set of the cool dragoon armor I see so I can wear on Halloween, or maybe the next time I have to go to the DMV.

It's like you and matty colluded so that what he said, you'd make a perfect example of!

mattyrm wrote: almost like Red China style brainwashing...

I would be disgusted if they made my 6 year old kid stand up once a week salute a British flag and sing God save the Queen, and I fething love the Queen! I just don't like the idea of forcing that stuff onto kids..

A friend of mine is currently doing teacher training for primary level and she told me as part of the National Curriculum they have to do a certain amount "worship" every day, she was kind of appalled at the idea of it.

mattyrm wrote: Its a topic I've long felt strongly about ever since during a talk with the missus 4 or 5 years ago she told me that in her elementary school AND kindergarten (she said she specifically remembers a girl in Kindergarten who was a Jehovah witness because she used to just sit there when everyone else stood up!) they had to get up and pledge allegiance to the flag and say "Indivisible under God" and all this gak. And it really did stun me. I couldn't believe that they had children doing it, and I found it to be a really odious story. It felt almost like Red China style brainwashing.. she mentioned something about it being introduced in the 50s to combat the spread of communism or something?!

Anyway, I think most Europeans would find the idea as repellent as I did. Do you still do it in most kids schools? Bear in mind she is 8 years younger than me so.. it was only the 90s she was still in school.

But I digress, I noticed it living in America and in the American military facilities and such.. the US seems to me to be literally the only Western nation that is still obsessed with this gak. Like some sort of strange paranoia?

Freedom this and freedom that.. God bless America, and how many times a day do you hear someone on TV in the States say "This is the greatest country on earth!"

Basically, I love America and Americans, but on this score it makes you guys look like total dicks. I told you I was arguing with a bloke about Religion in the pub once in Virginia and I said "Why do you think there are so many more deeply Religious people over here? and he said "Oh cos in America we are allowed to choose our own Religion!" as If that's not the case almost everywhere else?!

Basically endlessly harping on about this gak makes you look either ridiculously ignorant (think everyone in other countries lives in servitude/slavery) or ridiculously rude (think your way better than everyone else and always likes to mention it) and I think that lessening it is always a good thing.

I would be disgusted if they made my 6 year old kid stand up once a week salute a British flag and sing God save the Queen, and I fething love the Queen! I just don't like the idea of forcing that stuff onto kids..

Well....this country is made up of many different nationalities and religions, and as so, the american nationality is a collection of these. If there was no identity to it, then it would just be a collection of people in cities, cities in states, and states in a so-called nation. However, I do agree it is brainwashing. But I'm still not sure if it is a good or bad thing. The roots of a nation with a common cause must be established somewhere, or else its back to the 13/50 colonies all over again.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

mattyrm wrote: Its a topic I've long felt strongly about ever since during a talk with the missus 4 or 5 years ago she told me that in her elementary school AND kindergarten (she said she specifically remembers a girl in Kindergarten who was a Jehovah witness because she used to just sit there when everyone else stood up!) they had to get up and pledge allegiance to the flag and say "Indivisible under God" and all this gak. And it really did stun me. I couldn't believe that they had children doing it, and I found it to be a really odious story. It felt almost like Red China style brainwashing.. she mentioned something about it being introduced in the 50s to combat the spread of communism or something?!

Anyway, I think most Europeans would find the idea as repellent as I did. Do you still do it in most kids schools? Bear in mind she is 8 years younger than me so.. it was only the 90s she was still in school.

But I digress, I noticed it living in America and in the American military facilities and such.. the US seems to me to be literally the only Western nation that is still obsessed with this gak. Like some sort of strange paranoia?

Freedom this and freedom that.. God bless America, and how many times a day do you hear someone on TV in the States say "This is the greatest country on earth!"

Basically, I love America and Americans, but on this score it makes you guys look like total dicks. I told you I was arguing with a bloke about Religion in the pub once in Virginia and I said "Why do you think there are so many more deeply Religious people over here? and he said "Oh cos in America we are allowed to choose our own Religion!" as If that's not the case almost everywhere else?!

Basically endlessly harping on about this gak makes you look either ridiculously ignorant (think everyone in other countries lives in servitude/slavery) or ridiculously rude (think your way better than everyone else and always likes to mention it) and I think that lessening it is always a good thing.

I would be disgusted if they made my 6 year old kid stand up once a week salute a British flag and sing God save the Queen, and I fething love the Queen! I just don't like the idea of forcing that stuff onto kids..

Well....this country is made up of many different nationalities and religions, and as so, the american nationality is a collection of these. If there was no identity to it, then it would just be a collection of people in cities, cities in states, and states in a so-called nation. However, I do agree it is brainwashing. But I'm still not sure if it is a good or bad thing. The roots of a nation with a common cause must be established somewhere, or else its back to the 13/50 colonies all over again.

I agree its brainwashing, but what most americans also quickly forget is you are free not to say it, and you are free to mock it. I've had many a fun debate when schools have stopped doing the pledge and that same group of people get all upset about it. or mention taking under god out of it.
The original was: "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." <--- see no god. The original hand salute was precious to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:The "flag pledge" was invented by a flag salesman in order to sell more flags to school. Capitalism at its finests.

ya damn bloody socialists:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist,

Like some other dakkanauts in this thread, I reckon the principal might have simply disliked the term "God" in the lyrics, which is divisive for a nation where, supposedly, freedom of religion is part of the basic rights. Maybe not all of the children are Christians or from Christian parents?

dogma wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:
Freedom is a given right, if anyone say's you have anything less than that, then he/she is wrong.

In the past I would have said "Yeah, sure." but now I would ask "Are you free to kill person X without person X trying to stop you?"

I think that, by now, there are (sadly) better examples to be made, see how some of the Occupy Wallstreet protests were handled, or what SOPA/PIPA/etc are actually doing, or what the authorities, the secret agencies and the military are allowed to do these days in the pursuit of "homeland security". All of these measures have a certain justification on their basis, but at the same time it looks like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's a dangerous development that may very well lead to "freedom" becoming nothing more but an empty word.

Freedom is very subjective, and I think most democratic governments, whilst starting out driven by idealism and honesty, have since become corrupted, exerting various amounts of oppression and indoctrination on their populace. Okay, that may sound a little too grim now; of course it's still preferrable to living in NK etc, but I think we can agree that "freedom isn't what it used to be".

sirlynchmob wrote:The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855–1931), who was a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist,

If you've taken that from wikipedia, the very same paragraph finished with:
"The event was conceived and promoted by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, as a campaign to instill the idea of American nationalism by selling flags to public schools and magazines to students."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

Also pretty insightful, an interview with a relative:
http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/blog/grace-kelly/pledge-allegiance-was-just-ad-sell-magazines?print=1

well like they say, whoever trades freedom for security, will have neither.

D-usa covered the why it was done, Its just good to note the words are a socialist plot to destroy america

sirlynchmob wrote:well like they say, whoever trades freedom for security, will have neither.

It's a good thing then that nice maxims like these have very little relevance in reality.

Mattyrm wrote:Anyway, I think most Europeans would find the idea as repellent as I did. Do you still do it in most kids schools? Bear in mind she is 8 years younger than me so.. it was only the 90s she was still in school.

My father use to tell me that he did things like these back in the early 60s, but that he remember that it became a huge issue and was never done again.

Frazzled wrote:Whats so amazingly aweomse is how we don't care what Europeans think on the subject.

Is it stupid? Maybe. So's life.

So what? Its our country and our rules.

Thus you claim your country to be stupid, and are proud of your employ of freedom to promote stupidity on the national level.