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http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2012/06/10/nyc-principal-bans-god-bless-usa-kindergarten-graduation-allows-biebe

So I gave the NY Daily News to my friend and he laughed his head off, and he told me to post it on the forums. So here it is.

A public school principal in New York City has banned kindergartners from singing "God Bless the USA" at their graduation, but according to the New York Post, is allowing them to perform Justin Bieber's "Baby":

A controversial Coney Island principal has pulled the plug on patriotism.

Her refusal to let students sing “God Bless the USA” at their graduation has sparked fireworks at a school filled with proud immigrants.

Greta Hawkins, principal of PS 90, the Edna Cohen School, won’t allow kindergartners to belt out the beloved Lee Greenwood ballad, also known as “Proud to be an American,” at their moving-up ceremony.

Is it considered banning a song if the person responsible for coordinating an event chooses a different song?

What if they didn't say no because it's patriotic, but because it's a terrible song?

Yeah, who was actually planning the event? I'd be surprised if the kindergartners were actually picking the songs themselves. Although if they wanted to do a patriotic song, there are certainly other ones they could have picked if they didn't want to do "God Bless the USA" for whatever reason.

And come on Mannahnin, it's not that bad of a song.

“We don’t want to offend other cultures,” they quoted her as explaining.

Maybe the problem is not the "...the USA" part of the song, but the "God bless..." part of the song?

So maybe it's not about suppressing patriotism, but about not having a lot of kids from different cultures singing a song about a Christian God blessing them all at a Government event (tax payer funded school)?

Just a thought, feel free to continue with the scheudled "Oh my gods people hate america!!!!11!!!" thread that I am sure this will become .

I've always kind of felt like "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free", implies that other people aren't free. It seems really arrogant and ignorant, which is an offensive combination. And that's coming from an American.

d-usa wrote:

“We don’t want to offend other cultures,” they quoted her as explaining.

Maybe the problem is not the "...the USA" part of the song, but the "God bless..." part of the song?

So maybe it's not about suppressing patriotism, but about not having a lot of kids from different cultures singing a song about a Christian God blessing them all at a Government event (tax payer funded school)?

Just a thought, feel free to continue with the scheudled "Oh my gods people hate america!!!!11!!!" thread that I am sure this will become .

I was wondering the same thing, if the problem was the "God bless" part. But really, they could have just picked another patriotic song if they wanted to go that route. "Grand Old Flag" or something like that might have been fun for kindergartners, and I don't think it has any religious references.


The "Baby" song seems a little bit weird though.

Well...from what I read, saw on TV, and googled...it was planned by the teachers for several weeks already. Then the principle, Greta Hawkins made a surprise entrance and barred the song from being sung, amongst outraged teachers and parents. The song she chose to replace that one might have added a bit to the outrage too, I would assume

Also, this is not the first time she did something that caused such anger, back in 2010, she held a press conference and has made many prejudice and segregated remarks to school staff and parents. Bear in mind, she is black.

Are the kids actually going to sing the whole song though?

I hate Justin Bieber, but I can see a bunch of kids having fun just singing the "baby, baby, baby" part.

Mannahnin wrote:I've always kind of felt like "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free", implies that other people aren't free. It seems really arrogant and ignorant, which is an offensive combination. And that's coming from an American.

Yes, one thousand times, but no more.

dogma wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I've always kind of felt like "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free", implies that other people aren't free. It seems really arrogant and ignorant, which is an offensive combination. And that's coming from an American.

Yes, one thousand times, but no more.

True as well.

Mannahnin wrote:I've always kind of felt like "I'm proud to be an American, 'cause at least I know I'm free", implies that other people aren't free. It seems really arrogant and ignorant, which is an offensive combination. And that's coming from an American.

Well, to be fair, there are other people who aren't really free. Not everyone of course, it just depends on the country. It never struck me as that arrogant, but when someone tells me they like something or think something is good, I don't usually take that to mean that they're implying everything else sucks. I also don't consider it ignorant or arrogant to be cognizant and appreciative of one of the many benefits of living in a country like the US. I think a lot of Americans would benefit by thinking about that a little bit more from time to time.

But why would you know you're free? And free from what?

dogma wrote:But why would you know you're free? And free from what?

Freedom is a given right, if anyone say's you have anything less than that, then he/she is wrong. There is no free from what, there is simply free. After all, isn't that what many of our fathers, mothers, and many immigrants came here for? So they can simply be?

It's certainly what many of these childrens parents where reminded of when they heard their children rehearsing this song.

...when someone tells me they like something or think something is good, I don't usually take that to mean that they're implying everything else sucks. I also don't consider it ignorant or arrogant to be cognizant and appreciative of one of the many benefits of living in a country like the US. I think a lot of Americans would benefit by thinking about that a little bit more from time to time.

Absolutely.

Well, to be fair, there are other people who aren't reaslly free. Not everyone of course, it just depends on the country. It never struck me as that arrogant, but...

It just feels like the strong (only?) implication of that particular sentence. Like what distinguishes us as Americans from everyone else is that we're free. When in fact lots of other places are free too. Admittedly there are a lot of unpleasant places in the world where people aren't; but that's not how the line reads to me. Gut level or analytical. From the first time I heard it it's always stuck in my craw. Like a fulfillment of the stereotype of the ignorant parochial American who thinks nowhere else is nice.

dogma wrote:But why would you know you're free? And free from what?

Well, it's hard to say what 100% freedom would really be like, and obviously no country really has that. There are limits (i.e., laws, etc.)


Perhaps a better way to put it would be that the US has a much higher level of freedom in general than many other countries (and I'm not talking about democratic first world European countries here, so no one needs to chime in about how the UK is just as free as US - I get it, and that's not what I'm referring to.). I know that the US is more free because I have spent time in other countries where the people are significantly less free than the US. There are many other countries with higher levels of government oppression, police brutality and corruption, government crackdowns on peaceful protesters, lack of free elections, and so on. There are a lot of different ways to measure it, none of which are perfect, but when taken as a whole it's often pretty clear that the US has a lot of advantages in the freedom department, and I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging and being appreciative of that.

I will also say that the US is not perfect and has problems of its own, and I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that either.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

dogma wrote:But why would you know you're free? And free from what?

Freedom is a given right, if anyone say's you have anything less than that, then he/she is wrong. There is no free from what, there is simply free.

That's untrue. Or true in the sense that it's meaningless. I'm not free to park wherever I want. Or to steal. I'm not free to do a lot of things. And I live in arguably the freest country on Earth. By some standards, Somalians are freer than us. They have fewer laws that mean anything. But that's not really a good kind of freedom.

LumenPraebeo wrote:After all, isn't that what many of our fathers, mothers, and many immigrants came here for? So they can simply be?

Mostly they came here for economic opportunity. Though that's freedom in a sense. Some did come here for political freedom, though.

So she bans it. Why not practice free speech and sing it anyway.

Well, if you guys want me to be literal and specific, you'd see a post that's at minimum, 100 lines down.

Orlanth wrote:So she bans it. Why not practice free speech and sing it anyway.

Because what a lot of people think is free speech actually isn't?

You want to participate in a graduation ceremony, then you play by the rules.

Hordini wrote:

dogma wrote:But why would you know you're free? And free from what?

Well, it's hard to say what 100% freedom would really be like, and obviously no country really has that. There are limits (i.e., laws, etc.)

Hordini wrote:[Perhaps a better way to put it would be that the US has a much higher level of freedom in general than many other countries (and I'm not talking about democratic first world European countries here, so no one needs to chime in about how the UK is just as free as US - I get it, and that's not what I'm referring to.).

Cool. But my feeling has always been that Lee Greenwood isn't making any caveats about the UK or France. Maybe I'm reading him wrong.

Hordini wrote:I know that the US is more free because I have spent time in other countries where the people are significantly less free than the US. There are many other countries with higher levels of government oppression, police brutality and corruption, government crackdowns on peaceful protesters, lack of free elections, and so on. There are a lot of different ways to measure it, none of which are perfect, but when taken as a whole it's often pretty clear that the US has a lot of advantages in the freedom department, and I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging and being appreciative of that.

100% agreed. I just think it's a bad song for that.

Is it a song that has meaning for the kids that are singing it?

Or are the kids basically just trained monkeys singing a song that has meaning for the parents even though the kids don't really understand what they are singing about?

Mannahnin wrote:

...when someone tells me they like something or think something is good, I don't usually take that to mean that they're implying everything else sucks. I also don't consider it ignorant or arrogant to be cognizant and appreciative of one of the many benefits of living in a country like the US. I think a lot of Americans would benefit by thinking about that a little bit more from time to time.

Absolutely.

Well, to be fair, there are other people who aren't really free. Not everyone of course, it just depends on the country. It never struck me as that arrogant, but...

It just feels like the strong (only?) implication of that particular sentence. Like what distinguishes us as Americans from everyone else is that we're free. When in fact lots of other places are free too. Admittedly there are a lot of unpleasant places in the world where people aren't; but that's not how the line reads to me. Gut level or analytical. From the first time I heard it it's always stuck in my craw. Like a fulfillment of the stereotype of the ignorant parochial American who thinks nowhere else is nice.

I can understand your interpretation and I don't think it's invalid. I do think that it's possible to interpret the line a couple of different ways, however. I think one could also interpret it more along the lines of no matter what other challenges I'm facing, no matter how difficult things are going for me, "at least I know I'm free."

That said, I understand why you don't like the line, and believe me, I'm pretty sure I dislike the "ignorant parochial American who thinks nowhere else is nice" stereotype just as much as you do. That's something I have to battle against (I hope successfully) on a pretty regular basis.

d-usa wrote:Is it a song that has meaning for the kids that are singing it?

Or are the kids basically just trained monkeys singing a song that has meaning for the parents even though the kids don't really understand what they are singing about?

Either way, that's usually how history gets passed down. By teaching what we know to our young....we train them....and by doing so, once they get old enough to think for themselves, we can consider them taught.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

d-usa wrote:Is it a song that has meaning for the kids that are singing it?

Or are the kids basically just trained monkeys singing a song that has meaning for the parents even though the kids don't really understand what they are singing about?

Either way, that's usually how history gets passed down. By teaching what we know to our young....we train them....and by doing so, once they get old enough to think for themselves, we can consider them taught.

That's how propaganda works as well

d-usa wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

d-usa wrote:Is it a song that has meaning for the kids that are singing it?

Or are the kids basically just trained monkeys singing a song that has meaning for the parents even though the kids don't really understand what they are singing about?

Either way, that's usually how history gets passed down. By teaching what we know to our young....we train them....and by doing so, once they get old enough to think for themselves, we can consider them taught.

That's how propaganda works as well

Yep...and I know, i gotcha the first time you implied it.

d-usa wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

d-usa wrote:Is it a song that has meaning for the kids that are singing it?

Or are the kids basically just trained monkeys singing a song that has meaning for the parents even though the kids don't really understand what they are singing about?

Either way, that's usually how history gets passed down. By teaching what we know to our young....we train them....and by doing so, once they get old enough to think for themselves, we can consider them taught.

That's how propaganda works as well

That's true. That's why it's so important to have teachers who's primary concern is education, not indoctrination.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a patriotic song now and then though. There are obviously limits, but I guess that's the difference between a reasonable and healthy sense of patriotism and ridiculously ignorant nationalism.

And in that respect, I'd be happy for them to learn better patriotic songs.

I can understand your interpretation and I don't think it's invalid. I do think that it's possible to interpret the line a couple of different ways, however. I think one could also interpret it more along the lines of no matter what other challenges I'm facing, no matter how difficult things are going for me, "at least I know I'm free."

That would definitely improve it; I just don't think that's what it's saying. I may well be wrong.

That said, I understand why you don't like the line, and believe me, I'm pretty sure I dislike the "ignorant parochial American who thinks nowhere else is nice" stereotype just as much as you do. That's something I have to battle against (I hope successfully) on a pretty regular basis

I'm sure you do. Sincerely.

I want to go on a rant of graduation just for learningg your colors but i wont.
But maybe the principle is right. Maybe he didnt want kids ruining the song so he gave them a Bieber song to ruin(more)

Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with a patriotic song now and then though. There are obviously limits, but I guess that's the difference between a reasonable and healthy sense of patriotism and ridiculously ignorant nationalism.

That is the fine line. It is one thing to be proud of your country because it is great, and it is one thing to be proud of your country because you think it is better than any other country.

Maybe having dual-citizenship influences my view on some of these things. The only time I truly have the "my country is better than yours" mindset is during the World Cup and the UEFA Cup. Soccer FTW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:But maybe the principle is right. Maybe he didnt want kids ruining the song so he gave them a Bieber song to improve

Can any Bieber song really get any worse?

Mannahnin wrote:And in that respect, I'd be happy for them to learn better patriotic songs.

I can understand your interpretation and I don't think it's invalid. I do think that it's possible to interpret the line a couple of different ways, however. I think one could also interpret it more along the lines of no matter what other challenges I'm facing, no matter how difficult things are going for me, "at least I know I'm free."

That would definitely improve it; I just don't think that's what it's saying. I may well be wrong.

I definitely agree that there are better songs they could have chosen, better than both "God Bless the USA" and "Baby."

That said, I understand why you don't like the line, and believe me, I'm pretty sure I dislike the "ignorant parochial American who thinks nowhere else is nice" stereotype just as much as you do. That's something I have to battle against (I hope successfully) on a pretty regular basis

I'm sure you do. Sincerely.

I appreciate that. I'm doing the best I can, at least.