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WarlordRob117 wrote:how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis? that makes no sense whatsoever...

That's because the corset (which is more like a studded leather plackart than a corset) is purely decorative - either that, or its only protection is against dust/sand clogging the underlying armour plates, although I suppose the material could also be imprinted to dissipate energy. Matter of interpretation.

The corset is interchangable, it can be replaced by a rigid plackart to further increase armoured protection, or even be left away.


-- Sisters armour without the "corset" in the artworks


-- Canoness miniature, corset switched for ornate plackart


-- Repentia Mistress miniature without corset, exposing the adamantium-finished ceramite/flexsteel armour plates below

Grey Templar wrote:Astartes PA will need the Black Carapace to properly function, but human PA is just a matter of putting it on.

From what I have heard, it is more like the other way around, at least if you are a Marine. Power armour needs to be configured and adjusted for the individual user, the pressure and nerve sensors carefully attuned to the person's body. A Space Marine, on the other hand, really can just put the armour on and instantly receive the best results, as it works like a second skin for him.
Sources may differ on this, of course, so this is in no way an authorative statement ... but I always thought this makes sense.

Apparently they have massive boobs. Lol

They need protecting.

^ no kidding

Their charge range is mirrored by their bra size.

^ lol

Melissia wrote:

WarlordRob117 wrote:Since when did you become a subject matter expert?

But I never actually claimed to be an expert. Only that you were and are hilariously wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:All you've done is try to tell me Im wrong but you never said why or provided proof...

What else can I say? Your posts go past ridiculousity and enter in to the realm of the redonkulous.

WarlordRob117 wrote:In the BT codex, on page 11, the black carapace is implanted to make the power armor a natural extension of his body

Which is not what you argued.

You argued that power armor is required to receive the implants. Which is false. Astartes are not issued power armor UNTIL they have all their implants-- the Black Carapace is the last and final implant given to an initiate before they are granted the rank of Battle Brother and allowed to don their powered armor. Your understanding, as you stated it in the post that I quoted, is backwards (both literally and metaphorically).

WarlordRob117 wrote:perhaps I should have said point instead of reason... the fact still remains, and Im sure a fair majority will agree that the armor save granted to the space marine should be the best aside from termi and artificer armor...

They would be wrong.

WarlordRob117 wrote:inquisitors having power armor is a joke

THis statement is nothing more than ignorant fan-wankery of Space Marines. Even junior Inquisitors have FAR more resources and FAR more political power than all but the most influential Astartes Chapter Masters. The idea that they cannot use this to have power armor crafted for them when they are capable of destroying planets is the height of ignorance.

WarlordRob117 wrote:certainly the same with SOB

Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

WarlordRob117 wrote:... how is it a powered corset provides more protection than necrodermis?

IT's not a power armored corset. The "corset" is merely a decorative overlay. Or perhaps you believe that the artificer armor is actually WEAKER than standard power armor because it has so much gold (a notoriously soft metal which makes for extremely poor armor) on it?

Must be a DCM thing to tell someone they're wrong then and then not provide examples... and making fun of my opinions and examples just goes to show how immature you are...

but on to the good stuff, I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor... what I said was is power armor is required to protect the occupants geneseed, which is true,as there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine... further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine... all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created and for good reason... if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery... in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...
Artificer isnt just pretty, it is some of the most resourcefully made and archaic forms of power armor long dead to the imperium in its design... suits like these are precious as what you see is what you get... even the expert artificers of nocturne and mars couldnt replicate said technology due to the plans having been long destroyed... seeing how gold is obviously abundant in the 40K universe it should be nothing to replace a little filigre when necessary... but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

WarlordRob117 wrote:but on to the good stuff, I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor... what I said was is power armor is required to protect the occupants geneseed, which is true,as there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine... further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine... all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created and for good reason... if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery... in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...

Though I do not agree with the manner the dialogue between the two of you was conducted, I feel the need to point out two things:
- You did say that "Power armor exists to protect to occupant with the gene-seed organs, and you cant operate the power armor without them"
- Powered armour has been available to normal humans since the very first days of Rogue Trader; did you even read that book? Power-armoured Sisters of Battle were already in there, as were power-armoured Inquisitors.
- Using terms such as "Inquisitor scum-bag" only makes you come off as a hardcore Marine fan who thinks any other faction is underserving of "the cool stuff".

WarlordRob117 wrote:but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

Apart from a suit of power armour carrying itself which is the entire point of the armour being powered in the first place ...

"On its own, a suit of power armour weighs over 250 lbs, and even a Space Marine would find it difficult to move while wearing it, were it not for the electrically motivated fibre bundles implanted in the armour."
- 2E Codex: Angels of Death

I'm aware that certain outsourced products give power armour a much greater weight, however, so if you prefer some Black Library novel or FFG's RPG over GW studio material, that would be a valid interpretation, too. It does not change what the studio has established, however, so complaining about something "laughable" when it makes perfect sense if you stick to GW material just doesn't work.

WarlordRob117 wrote:if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades needed to properly operate the machinery...

The original marks of power armour were actually used by relatively normal humans on Earth during the uniting of Terra.

in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less... inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection, even for a beaurocratic society such as inquisitors, and the same goes for SOB...

IYO... which is a position not shared by any of the fluff... There has never been, as far as I am aware, any fluff which states that power armour is only reserved for space marines.

a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being... it is laughable...

A suit of armour that is self supporting due to being powered armour?

/tiphat

Appreciation returned. It's certainly nice to see people also admitting they are biased - because, let's face it, we all are, simply due to all of us having a favorite faction.

As for the Marines, I think it is important that what makes them special isn't their armour and weapons (as these are indeed not unique to them), but all the implants and their lifestyle. If you have a Marine and a normal human both in power armour, the Marine will still be harder to stop, presented on the TT by the Marines having T4 and various special rules. I do not think anyone in the Imperium is as souped-up as the Astartes when it comes to body manipulation. Granted, there are some Assassins and the Mechanicus Tech-Priests, but their modifications aim at different effects. Physically, the Astartes are the best troops the Imperium has to offer. For some Chapters, this is "balanced" by shortcomings such as geneseed mutation or a simple lack in loyalty, but that would be a discussion for another thread.

tl;dr: don't limit your perception of what makes the Marines "awesome" solely on their gear

Lynata wrote:/tiphat

Appreciation returned. It's certainly nice to see people also admitting they are biased - because, let's face it, we all are, simply due to all of us having a favorite faction.

As for the Marines, I think it is important that what makes them special isn't their armour and weapons (as these are indeed not unique to them), but all the implants and their lifestyle. If you have a Marine and a normal human both in power armour, the Marine will still be harder to stop, presented on the TT by the Marines having T4 and various special rules. I do not think anyone in the Imperium is as souped-up as the Astartes when it comes to body manipulation. Granted, there are some Assassins and the Mechanicus Tech-Priests, but their modifications aim at different effects. Physically, the Astartes are the best troops the Imperium has to offer. For some Chapters, this is "balanced" by shortcomings such as geneseed mutation or a simple lack in loyalty, but that would be a discussion for another thread.

tl;dr: don't limit your perception of what makes the Marines "awesome" solely on their gear

^This times infinity

but what really gets me going is the can-do attitude and the general "we're humanities last hope, so lets act like it" mind-set... Probably my favorite stories are about Calgar and his charisma as a leader, combines with his unshakable resolve as a warrior... the armor of antilochus, the gauntlets of ultramar... these just make an already awesome character perfect.... the proper tools of a god of war...

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

Most? Sisters only go back to M36. I'd say around half of existing Chapters go back beyond this.

Sisters existed in Rogue Trader.

Most SM chapters were little more than a color scheme back then.

WarlordRob117 wrote:I never said once that geneseed organs were required to use power armor

See my previous quote. Yes you did.

WarlordRob117 wrote:there are none more invaluable to the imperium than the space marine

Blanks, primaris psykers, titan crews, navigators, inquisitors-- I can think of plenty of people, nevermind things far more valuable to the Imperium than a mere space marine.

WarlordRob117 wrote:further more I elaborated by stating that the power suit is a motorized walking tank essentially designed for the space marine

The Astartes patterns of power armor are. Why are you under the delusions that these are the only ones that exist when I have provided numerous examples where humans can and do use power armor.

WarlordRob117 wrote:all this extra junk didnt exist back when the first legions were created

Powered armor existed well before the first legions were created. In fact, the power armor that existed in the dark age of technology was FAR superior to that of the Astartes-- the Emperor continually improved upon the power armor he provided his legions.

WarlordRob117 wrote:if you put an imperial human (inquisitor scum-bag) into a power armor suit, back in the rogue trader days that person would have been ripped apart due to there bodies lacking the specific upgrades

This is pure fiction, nothing more than you making gak up and claiming that it is lore. Sisters of Battle had powered armor back in the Rogue Trader era. In fact, the very first appearance of Sisters had them executing Space Marines, destroying the Rainbow Marines chapter for disloyalty. Sisters were almost sort of an army which functioned as commissars to the Space Marines back then. They have been made less dependent on Space Marine lore since then of course, but they still occasionally are used to punish disloyal Space Marine chapters.

WarlordRob117 wrote:in the new editions giving such tech to mere humans makes a mockery of everything that the space marine is supposed to be

You mean boring Mary Sue characters?

WarlordRob117 wrote:... perfection perfection perfection and nothing less...

spank spank spank.

WarlordRob117 wrote:inquisitor in power armor is far from perfection

Space Marines have never been perfect.

WarlordRob117 wrote:and the same goes for SOB...

Sisters of Battle, and I quote DIRECTLY FROM THE LORE because you are incapable of reading anything other than Astartes fanwank, are:

[...]shining examples of all that is good about humanity.

Exact quote. Space Marines are left ambiguous, but Sisters of Battle are explicitly stated to be good. They make mistakes and have flaws, but they are the best of humanity. Space Marines in comparison... aren't human anymore. It's the entire point of Astartes really-- their inhuman qualities grant them physical (but not mental) superiority over most of the other races in the galaxy.

WarlordRob117 wrote:Artificer isnt just pretty

You notice the point? Yeah, it's over there. You completely missed it in your attempts to fanwank marines.

WarlordRob117 wrote:but again, a suit of armour that weighs 1500+ lbs should not be able to be used by a normal human being

My car weighs more than 1500 pounds (go steel chassis, no aluminum here!). And yet I, an untrained civilian who does not do bodybuilding, am able to move it.

Powered armor is far more complex than an automobile. You completely and utterly miss the definition of powered armor. Nevermind that powered armor in 40k does not weigh 1500 pounds, the very nature of powered armor is that it assists the user in wearing it, much like a motorized vehicle assists the user in moving it.

Lynata wrote:I'm aware that certain outsourced products give power armour a much greater weight, however, so if you prefer [...] FFG's RPG over GW studio material

I know you have a stupid, irrational hate of FFG, but at least do some fething research (or even just have a long-term memory when I repeatedly say the same exact goddamned thing to you instead of ignoring it for the sake of your FFG-hate) instead of lying to people about FFG as is your usual methods. At least I assume that's what you're doing-- intentionally spreading misinformation despite being corrected on the topic numerous times.

Powered armor in FFG ranges from ~80 pounds (for light powered armor that might belong to a rich nobleman and his retinue) to ~880 pounds for terminator armor. None of the armors exceed 1000 pounds, not even terminator armor.

Melissia wrote:I know you have a stupid, irrational hate of FFG, but at least do some fething research (or even just have a long-term memory when I repeatedly say the same exact goddamned thing to you instead of ignoring it for the sake of your FFG-hate) instead of lying to people about FFG as is your usual methods. Powered armor ranges from ~80 pounds (for light powered armor that might belong to a rich nobleman and his retinue) to ~880 pounds for terminator armor. None of the armors exceed 1000 pounds, not even terminator armor.

If you think I'm "hating" on an RPG system of which I have purchased about a dozen books over the past years, then I think you are fanboying over it.

As for your accusation? Fact: FFG's version of Space Marine power armour is more than twice the weight stated for Space Marine power armour in GW sources. Discrepancies like these won't magically disappear, regardless of how deep you want to stick your fingers into your ears and claim others are lying or "not getting it".

Other types of power armour were not even subject of my post, given that it aimed at pointing out differences between various sources. So either you simply did not read what I wrote, or it was you who didn't do their research on statements concerning weight in the various books.

If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth but go into berserk mode every time I "dare" to criticize needless deviations from studio material, best put me on ignore, for it may very well happen again.

Lynata wrote:If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth

What truth? I only saw you lying, as you tend to do about things related to FFG, and suggesting that FFG's example of powered armor is 1500 pounds.

Brother Thomas wrote:Apparently they have massive boobs. Lol

Die.

Melissia wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters are older than most Space Marine chapters and have always had powered armor. It is one of the key defining aspects of their lore, no matter how much you scream otherwise.

Most? Sisters only go back to M36. I'd say around half of existing Chapters go back beyond this.

Sisters existed in Rogue Trader.

Most SM chapters were little more than a color scheme back then.

Yes they did. But I thought you were referring in-universe, in which case around half of all Chapters should be older than the Sisters.

Oh, I was talking about for GW in general.

SilverMK2 wrote:

The original marks of power armour were actually used by relatively normal humans on Earth during the uniting of Terra.

No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - had to 'expand' his body when wearing power armor.

Tadashi wrote:No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - simply 'expanded' his body when wearing power armor.

Correction accepted - I knew they were modified to an extent but I have just looked them up and have seen that they were significantly bigger/etc than regular humans.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:If you cannot stomach me stating the simple truth

What truth? I only saw you lying, as you tend to do about things related to FFG, and suggesting that FFG's example of powered armor is 1500 pounds.

Okay, so you just didn't read. Is bold text an official tool for polemics?

Recap:
WarlordRob117 complained about SoB wearing power armour, stating it shouldn't be possible for non-Marines to wear something that weighs "over 1500 pounds" as it presumably requires a Black Carapace.
I then pointed out that Marine power armour is actually just 250 lbs, adding that other sources - like FFG - may well give greater weights.
And 113 kg being less than 180 kg is not a "lie", it is an objective observation.

Although I will add that the difference is not as large as I first remembered, not that it changes anything about my core statement - said statement being FFG material occasionally differs from GW material. Like many other licensed publications do.
That's not even "hating FFG", that is simply making people aware that there are differences between their various sources, because apparently not everybody realizes this.

And yet, you still suggested that if people wanted to believe powered armor was 1500 pounds they'd go with FFG.

I'm glad you admit you were wrong.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, they were used by proto-Astartes, the so-called Thunder Warriors. Even the Emperor - who had a normal body as far as I know - simply 'expanded' his body when wearing power armor.

Correction accepted - I knew they were modified to an extent but I have just looked them up and have seen that they were significantly bigger/etc than regular humans.

I'm pretty sure Thunder Warriors were bigger and stronger than Astartes. They had life-spans though, and unstable genes. They were a testing ground for technologies to be used to create the Primarchs and the Astartes. When Unification was over, those that were still alive were culled by the Custodes or retired and died.

Melissia wrote:And yet, you still suggested that if people wanted to believe powered armor was 1500 pounds they'd go with FFG.

Not at all. In spite of you focusing solely on my criticism towards FFG, the post was actually aimed at any source needlessly deviating from what the studio had established - be it intentionally or due to sloppy research. If you'd just bother to look back, you may notice that I did not only mention FFG but also the Black Library - before mentioning FFG, even. When I'm taking a broad swing at inconsistency in the franchise, please, do not concentrate on a single example and claim that I'm "hating" solely on this, because I don't.

Either way, since 40k doesn't follow a canon, people are free to go with whatever they like. Be it the 250 lbs from the C:AoD, the 400 lbs from FFG, or 1500 lbs - whether the latter is actually printed in some book or stems solely from a fan's own idea.

If you are incapable of backing down from a false accusation, then let's just stop it here and not derail the thread any further.

Lynata wrote:

Either way, since 40k doesn't follow a canon, people are free to go with whatever they like. Be it the 250 lbs from the C:AoD, the 400 lbs from FFG, or 1500 lbs - whether the latter is actually printed in some book or stems solely from a fan's own idea.

Power armor is not even supposed to weigh anything while worn. That would defeat its purpose.

Yeah, Marines actually move faster and are stronger when wearing their armor. Its only a minor difference but its still there.

Its bulky because that's the general asthetic the artwork goes for when it comes to most things Imperial. Big, blocky, cumbersome, covered in skulls and fluttering bits of paper. That's how we know it's Imperial. Just like if its coated in blood and spikes and leering faces, we know it's chaos.

This is the same artwork that makes the Leman Russ pack a 120mm smoothbore (or rifled, depending on your source) cannon that is big enough to stick your head and/or upper torso in. not only that, but the tank can pack in 40 of those shells into the handy dandy ammo storage bin using Bag of Holding technology. Heck we know they can miniaturize tech down, because they somehow worked that out for bolters too. And heavy bolters (I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from... )

Or if you really need an explanation, its to justify their ability to die falling down stairs. Or something.

1: Vehicle models are not to scale with themselves.

2: all infantry models are done in Heroic Scale.

3: When a model dies in the game it doesn't = dead. They might be simply incapacitated, injured, or otherwise unable to complete the battle. This is what Get's Hot represents, the user scalding himself/losing his weapon and as such being of no further use till its dealt with.

I also thought of all the Artwork where bolters eject casings. Or where the Tau seem to fight the same way as IG (out in the open, a few feet away from the enemy. The notable one I'm thinking of is Tau vs Tyranids, which I think was in 5th edition core rules.)

Bolters eject casings.

It is erronious that they are caseless, they were never caseless to my knowledge. and, even if they were, it has since been overruled by more recent fluff.

Bolters fire a .75 caliber two-stage round. The bolt round is fired initially with an explosive charge identical to modern firearms, encased in a metal. After exiting the barrel, the secondary rocket stage ignites and propels the bolt to even greater velocities.

Connor MacLeod wrote:I always wondered where the 'fist sized' bolt references came from...

This one isn't hard to explain, though! Just think of it as referring to the projectile's length, not its caliber.

If it would resemble a fist in all dimensions, it would look a bit weird, I think.