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This thread is drivel... Lets privatize the socialist, state owned body we call 'The Armed Forces of The United States' and instead hire in private peace keeping forces to do our fighting! China has a government controlled military, we can't be like them!!!

Beeeerrrrr MGS...bbbeeeerrrrrr...calm down...dddeeeeeeppppp breathes in....out...in...out...put down the weapon...thats good...bbbrreeeeaattthhhh

Huffy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

North and South??? conclusion Frazz is from R'lyeh

Or I just want you to shut up and split.


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Grakmar wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

Well, I walked north a mile or so, then hit the North Shore Channel. This didn't seem to help at all, so I then walked south several miles before hitting the North Branch of the Chicago River.

At first, I was a little confused as to how this was meant to help. But, then, I realized that Frazzled had led me to the Goose Island Brewery! Beer is the answer!

Exactly. SOmetimes the best path is the one that meanders.

.....
Send work to india? Are you joking me? And corrode american industry even further? Hell, the whole reason china got out of its rut is because it received all of the outsourced work from the US.

And really, if you have a problem with money being stolen and handed over to these "unions" you should probably acknowledge the fact that all politicians are crooks trying their darndest to pilfer your tax dollars. Just because you have an investment with the company receiving the stolen money doesn't give you the right to be complacent about it. More to the point, with ongoing tax cuts, the less money there is, the less of it goes to programs. So what are the few tax dollars paid going toward--senators? to do what? Sit on their ass and deliberate about nothing all day because everything was privatised and taken out of their hands?

Has it also occurred to you that china is better at following the free market than the united states? Sure, china is plan driven. Let's say there's a demand for "X". Somone decides we shall make "X", then it's put into implementation and then its on the market. In the states, you wait for someone to decide "X" would be nice, and how it will be satisfied. Then they have to convince the bank to get a loan, and make repeated trial and error attempts to get somewhere, before they get sued or bought out by a corporation.... The process ends up being much longer in the states with far more obstacles in the way, and much more costly, and in the end, the work gets outsourced to some asian country, because god forbid, we shouldn't pay wages to honest americans, because hott damn, they might be illegal immigrants. Best for everyone if we just employ someone from india. And hey, we get the benefit of suppressing the 12% of the unionized labor force and stop their filthy social behavior from infecting america. Dear god, can you imagine, people conducting themselves morally and looking out after eachotehr!? THE HORROR!

poda_t wrote:So what are the few tax dollars paid going toward--senators?

The military? Banking institutes and investment firms that need a bail-out? Subsidies for the nuclear lobby and oil companies?

Lynata wrote:

poda_t wrote:So what are the few tax dollars paid going toward--senators?

The military? Banking institutes and investment firms that need a bail-out? Subsidies for the nuclear lobby and oil companies?

so..... essentially you are supporting my complaint because most of them are somehow tied or involved with those institutions anyway

Pensions, Health Care, and Welfare make up a combined 56% of the Federal budget, forecasted to rise to 61% within 5 years.

sourclams wrote:Pensions, Health Care, and Welfare make up a combined 56% of the Federal budget, forecasted to rise to 61% within 5 years.

yes. Assuming further cuts and accusations of communism aren't put forward which might harm that projection.

I can't stand commentary about government in north america. If some moron isn't accusing the government of being communist, then they are accusing it of being fascist. The only time the government seems to have anything good going for it is when it does absolutely nothing.

And there's almost nothing that Romney can or will do about that if he became president.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_for_2010

Breakdown how money is spent in the US military. Out of date being its 2010

Jihadin wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Budget_for_2010

Breakdown how money is spent in the US military. Out of date being its 2010

see? there seems to be no problem with the american government investing money it doesn't have in blowing up infrastructure in countries it occupies, so I don't see why it can't invest money it doesn't have in building local infrastructure and industry. I know the US tried to recover part of the cost from whatever military spending by using Iraqi oil to pay for the restoration, but what leaves me uncomfortable about those numbers you posted is the silence regarding private security spending, which may be hidden into the defense budget, or not a part of it. I remember reading some traumatically large number, but can't source it correctly, so I abstain from mentioning anything further on that note. That said, it makes more sense to spend on building your own country's industry up, and keeping the money on the home turf than sending money elsewhere to build up industry there. It's not as likely that those funds will return.

I find that the same people that whinge about cheap labor coming in from south of the border are all for paying the same wages to workers in india...

poda_t wrote:so..... essentially you are supporting my complaint because most of them are somehow tied or involved with those institutions anyway

Yep.

sourclams wrote:Pensions, Health Care, and Welfare

That too, but I'd say that this at least serves a much more beneficial purpose. Where exactly does the public profit from billions of dollars being funneled into a banking sector that hasn't learned gak from the last crisis and happily continues speculating with other people's money? I recall some politicians calling for stricter laws about regulating this kind of activity, but that seems to have died down because regulation = communism or something.

poda_t wrote:but what leaves me uncomfortable about those numbers you posted is the silence regarding private security spending, which may be hidden into the defense budget, or not a part of it

And apparently, up to 90 cents of each dollar invested in actual reconstruction efforts gets lost "on the way" to contractor overhead and administration or corruption on-site.

poda_t wrote:That said, it makes more sense to spend on building your own country's industry up, and keeping the money on the home turf than sending money elsewhere to build up industry there. It's not as likely that those funds will return.

That depends... For one, it makes a nation look better to the rest of the world, especially if you're trying to score with the population of the occupied zone. Also, look at what the Marshall plan made of Germany after WW2. The potential is there - it's just likely that these funds do not return directly to the state itself but rather to US companies, which will naturally export more goods, services and know-how to a country that actually has a working economy rather than a wasteland where everybody is poor. The companies themselves would then hire US citizens and give them work, in turn allowing the citizens to pay taxes.

At least I think that's the idea.

Jihadin wrote:

This thread is drivel... Lets privatize the socialist, state owned body we call 'The Armed Forces of The United States' and instead hire in private peace keeping forces to do our fighting! China has a government controlled military, we can't be like them!!!

Beeeerrrrr MGS...bbbeeeerrrrrr...calm down...dddeeeeeeppppp breathes in....out...in...out...put down the weapon...thats good...bbbrreeeeaattthhhh

I appear to have drunk half a bottle of gin last night and have a bit of a sore head.

Another shot of Gin will cure it. I'm certain of it!

Best way to cure a hang over. Drink more

Lynata wrote:Where exactly does the public profit from billions of dollars being funneled into a banking sector that hasn't learned gak from the last crisis and happily continues speculating with other people's money?

Well, the big banks paid back the loans with interest. So the public literally profits by the interest on the loans. Most of the remaining, outstanding loans are actually to much, much smaller facilities.

I recall some politicians calling for stricter laws about regulating this kind of activity, but that seems to have died down because regulation = communism or something.

Are you referring to Dodd-Frank? It's a monstrous piece of legislature and those in the financial sector are not quite sure exactly what it does yet. Clarification and regulation take quite a bit of time to implement for big, industry-spanning changes. I think it was about 4-5 weeks ago that the CFTC finally worked through the definition of what 'Swaps' would be.

sourclams wrote:Well, the big banks paid back the loans with interest. So the public literally profits by the interest on the loans. Most of the remaining, outstanding loans are actually to much, much smaller facilities.

I'm not sure this is an efficient way of economics, but it carries a striking resemblance to the use of credit cards
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/bank-tarp_n_1335006.html

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Phanatik wrote:What I care about what the rest of the world thinks about the U.S. can fall into the Marianas Trench.

You should. We watch you constantly.

I know you're not watching me, because you would have clawed your eyes out a LONG fething time ago.

Oh yeah, I forgot Phanatik existed. Well it all comes back to me.

Meanwhile, China has large government surpluses, and exports more than it imports. I would suggest the USA should attempt the same, but that'd be saying the USA should be more like China.

Also, China is winning lots of gold medals in London. I would suggest the USA should attempt the same, but that'd be saying the USA should be more like China.

This is just so fething stupid.


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Frazzled wrote:having said that I agree on the infrastructure spend part.

That's the only thing she said. For feth's sake.



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Kilkrazy wrote:I think the USA should take decisions about infrastructure investment based on facts rather than because of political positions.

Well, the fact is that there's an immense amount of productivity potential available in improved infrastructure. And the political reality is that the money isn't spent on that infrastructure because political realities make the tax increase needed to fund it impossible.


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Testify wrote:Unless there's something in this thread I've missed no one's pointed out the obvious - America doesn't have the money to invest in infrastructure. No one does.

Of course they do. You're among the richest countries in the world.

The fact that you happen to like spending loads of money on luxury items, and happen to think that's the way life ought to be, doesn't mean the money doesn't exist. It just means you'd rather let the existing infrastructure dwindle away so you can buy GTA VIII or whatever the hell they're up to.


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Phanatik wrote:What I care about what the rest of the world thinks about the U.S. can fall into the Marianas Trench.

China is highly nationalistic, and defiantly ignorant about the rest of the world.

Therefore Phanatik is just like China.

sebster wrote: exports more than it imports.

Ultimately this is meaningless.

sebster wrote:
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Kilkrazy wrote:I think the USA should take decisions about infrastructure investment based on facts rather than because of political positions.

Well, the fact is that there's an immense amount of productivity potential available in improved infrastructure. And the political reality is that the money isn't spent on that infrastructure because political realities make the tax increase needed to fund it impossible.


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Testify wrote:Unless there's something in this thread I've missed no one's pointed out the obvious - America doesn't have the money to invest in infrastructure. No one does.

Of course they do. You're among the richest countries in the world.

The fact that you happen to like spending loads of money on luxury items, and happen to think that's the way life ought to be, doesn't mean the money doesn't exist. It just means you'd rather let the existing infrastructure dwindle away so you can buy GTA VIII or whatever the hell they're up to.

To add to this: The US currently spends 102.6 Billion on transportation, 65.3 of that is specifically on ground transportation. That's grown from 93.0 and 60.9 last year.

Now granted there is A LOT of road in America, and it's in the constitution that roads are sapposed to come from public funds.

Like you said, the right won't raise taxation to pay for these absolutuely warrented spend, at the same time the left won't ruduce social program to float the capitol for these works. Both sides have political problems that will not allow them to this work. Grid lock is a bitch.

sourclams wrote:Ultimately this is meaningless.

I agree with you, in that manufacturing is focussed on because people find it easier to conceptualise tangible goods moving between countries, and therefor discount the value of services. And also because ultimately that export more than you import kind of mentality, basically a throw back to a mercantilist idea of trying to 'win' at economics basically doesn't work, and basically destabilised the world economy and generally reduces the living standards of people in your own countries.

But, of course, the perception of Chinese power comes largely from doing just that, and the concern about America's declining power comes from them failing to do the same. To someone like Phanatik that kind of thinking is central. So it becomes a pretty good example of why 'anyone who wants to do anything that China does is admiring China' is so fething stupid.


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broodstar wrote:Like you said, the right won't raise taxation to pay for these absolutuely warrented spend, at the same time the left won't ruduce social program to float the capitol for these works. Both sides have political problems that will not allow them to this work. Grid lock is a bitch.

I should have included an unwillingness on the left to reduce spending on any of their sacred cows, as well as the unwillingness of the right to pay any more tax. Thanks for picking up on that.

Ultimately, both sides have an entitlement complex about how much wealth they ought to have, and in order to keep all that they're willing to borrow money, and simultaneously neglect developing infrastructure that would benefit future generations.

sebster wrote:Of course they do. You're among the richest countries in the world.
Therefore Phanatik is just like China.

Very lame, and won't earn you a medal. I would have thought Australia could do better.

What you, and most lefties can't grasp (or simply ignore) is that the wealth of America doesn't belong to the government. It belongs to individual entities.

As it would have been his birthday yesterday:
“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there'd be a shortage of sand.”
― Milton Friedman
“Most of the energy of political work is devoted to correcting the effects of mismanagement of government.”
― Milton Friedman

Cheers!

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of 'leave my country if you think it sucks?'

I would... If I had the resources for an international move. Germany and the Scandinavian nations seem to understand that neither unbridled capitolism nor totalitarian socialism work, and have managed to do what America believes is impossible: strike a compromise between the two for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of the rich or the government.

Vulcan wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of 'leave my country if you think it sucks?'

I would... If I had the resources for an international move. Germany and the Scandinavian nations seem to understand that neither unbridled capitolism nor totalitarian socialism work, and have managed to do what America believes is impossible: strike a compromise between the two for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of the rich or the government.

Don't be a nattering nancy boy. We have a 2,000 mile border just waiting for you. All the countries of Central and South America await. You just need shoes. What? You're not man enough unlike the 20mm who crossed north, including women and children? I guess there's always mom's basement then.

All this debate reminds me of the utter nutjobs who think Agenda 21 is some sort of New World Order conspiracy.

Phanatik wrote:
What you, and most lefties can't grasp (or simply ignore) is that the wealth of America doesn't belong to the government. It belongs to individual entities.

and by wealth, you do of course mean debt, because private entities have been eroding the industrial base of the united states and clap-trapping the government into not interfering. Only a small handful have any wealth to speak of, and too many of those entities are non-living and non-breathing beings.

Jihadin wrote:Best way to cure a hang over. Drink more

But drinking is a sin, like being gay and coveting my oxen...

Sinner!!!

Why I always praise Silenus....God of Beer Pagan Gods are always good for something for anything for anytime

Phanatik wrote:
What you, and most lefties can't grasp (or simply ignore) is that the wealth of America doesn't belong to the government. It belongs to individual entities.

Most of it belongs to individuals (or collectives of individuals that we pretend are individuals), but lots of it also belongs to the government. If you disagree with me, I recommend you go attempt to claim "your" share of tanks from the nearest army base.


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Vulcan wrote:
I would... If I had the resources for an international move. Germany and the Scandinavian nations seem to understand that neither unbridled capitolism nor totalitarian socialism work, and have managed to do what America believes is impossible: strike a compromise between the two for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of the rich or the government.

I have the resources. The resources aren't the problem, its immigration.