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Melissia wrote:All this debate reminds me of the utter nutjobs who think Agenda 21 is some sort of New World Order conspiracy.

The late George Carlin talks about how the term “conspiracy theorist” is a label used by the establishment to dismiss the idea that powerful people might get together and actually plan anything.

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of 'leave my country if you think it sucks?'

I would... If I had the resources for an international move. Germany and the Scandinavian nations seem to understand that neither unbridled capitolism nor totalitarian socialism work, and have managed to do what America believes is impossible: strike a compromise between the two for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of the rich or the government.

Don't be a nattering nancy boy. We have a 2,000 mile border just waiting for you. All the countries of Central and South America await. You just need shoes. What? You're not man enough unlike the 20mm who crossed north, including women and children? I guess there's always mom's basement then.

Frazzled, if you don't like liberals in the US then maybe you should leave! You don't live too far from Mexico, and that place is a capitalist paradise (in that the government is a crumbling, corrupt entity with barely any power, but that's okay because the free market regulates itself)!

No. I like it here. Ok by here I mean Tennessee.

No. I like it here. Ok by here I mean Tennessee.

WTH? Tennessee? When did TX annex TN?

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vulcan wrote:I love how America has a fit every time the government tries to get us to do something for the common good, and yet lets corporations shove their dangerous products (alchohol, tobacco, name your choice of drug with severe side effects, not to mention the ever-popular industrial pollution) down our throats and nobody blinks an eye over it.

This country sucks.

If its a real issue for you, you can always start walking north and south and stop when you hit water.

I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of 'leave my country if you think it sucks?'

I would... If I had the resources for an international move. Germany and the Scandinavian nations seem to understand that neither unbridled capitolism nor totalitarian socialism work, and have managed to do what America believes is impossible: strike a compromise between the two for the benefit of the people, not for the benefit of the rich or the government.

Don't be a nattering nancy boy. We have a 2,000 mile border just waiting for you. All the countries of Central and South America await. You just need shoes. What? You're not man enough unlike the 20mm who crossed north, including women and children? I guess there's always mom's basement then.

You mean, countries to the south not 'officially' part of the U.S. but held firmly under the thumb of American corporations? No thanks. If I want to live in a third-world nation I'll stay right here and watch the oncoming collapse brought on by corporate greed. First they destroy us, making a ridiculous profit by moving jobs to other countries. then once we've been stomped flat economically they can make even more money by shipping jobs BACK here because those other countries have become 'first world' and the workers actually want a decent paycheck...

Nancy boy? Mom's basement. Seriously? That's the best you could come up with? Try exercising your grey matter and come up with something original next time you want to go into personal attacks.

Vulcan wrote:
You mean, countries to the south not 'officially' part of the U.S. but held firmly under the thumb of American corporations? No thanks. If I want to live in a third-world nation I'll stay right here and watch the oncoming collapse brought on by corporate greed.

I would recommend Finland or Sweden. They are both third world countries.

Phanatik wrote:

sebster wrote:Of course they do. You're among the richest countries in the world.
Therefore Phanatik is just like China.

Very lame, and won't earn you a medal. I would have thought Australia could do better.

What you, and most lefties can't grasp (or simply ignore) is that the wealth of America doesn't belong to the government. It belongs to individual entities.

So you respond to me pointing out the large logic gaps in the ridiculous claim in your OP by calling me a leftie and giving vague generalisations about government. Basically you appear intent on delivering the same pointless noise to dakka that you did previously.

And in other news, what you and other noisy ideologues of the unthinking section of the right wing cannot understand is that wealth isn't, and can't ever be a purely individual thing. Go look at how much smart and hard work will net you in Somalia. Think about how many hours you'd have to put in to build your own Audi, brew your own Guiness, and raise your own Kobe beef. Or you can go and get a specialisation, then work with the rest of society to trade your specific skill for the high quality goods produced by other skilled individuals.

And all of that is possible because there exists a government framework underneath - to enforce property laws and contractual arrangements, and to provide infrastructure that everyone can use for greater productivity.

So, it looks like this is actually a real "thing" now. I just saw the derpiest article on RCP, link here.

It's a whole panoply of strawmen and ludicrousness. It first asserts that because "Communist China" spends 9%, that Mrs. Warren also proposed we match that number (she didn't!) and explains how totally expensive it would be to do so and we'd need tax hikes to cover it, while then saying "Communist China" spends so much because they're playing catch up to us (so presumably it would cost us less!!) goes on to state lots of people are displaced by building projects in Communist China (like we don't do the same thing here!) and capping it by saying, and this is a quote, "Free-market fans tend to like the eminent domain suits".

Seriously, WTF? How do people think like this? It's breathtaking.

Ouze wrote:So, it looks like this is actually a real "thing" now. I just saw the derpiest article on RCP, link here.

It's a whole panoply of strawmen and ludicrousness. It first asserts that because "Communist China" spends 9%, that Mrs. Warren also proposed we match that number (she didn't!) and explains how totally expensive it would be to do so and we'd need tax hikes to cover it, while then saying "Communist China" spends so much because they're playing catch up to us (so presumably it would cost us less!!) goes on to state lots of people are displaced by building projects in Communist China (like we don't do the same thing here!) and capping it by saying, and this is a quote, "Free-market fans tend to like the eminent domain suits".

Seriously, WTF? How do people think like this? It's breathtaking.

SHUT UP YOU COMMIE FASCIST DICTATIORIAL FREEMASON gakker! NOBODY CARES!

The first problem is mathematical. U.S. gross domestic product is about $15 trillion a year. Increasing infrastructure “investment” to the 9% Chinese level that Warren cites would mean an additional $1 trillion a year in government spending.

And the Chinese GDP is a bit over 7 trillion. And I don't really know why the problem is mathematical; to me it seems rhetorical. What with the Chinese spending ~66% more (in gross terms) than us on infrastructure.

But then most Americans never understood math.

Melissia wrote:All this debate reminds me of the utter nutjobs who think Agenda 21 is some sort of New World Order conspiracy.

Is it a conspiracy when a herd of thousands of caribou all move in the same direction?

Cheer!

Jihadin wrote:

No. I like it here. Ok by here I mean Tennessee.

WTH? Tennessee? When did TX annex TN?

Give us time. We have have unleashed Wiener Legions II - XXXIV to help persuade Arkansas to join Greater Texas. Tennessee will be next. Unfortunately the legions move somewhat slowly (you would too if you had 6in legs) and tend to get distracted by squirrels, cats, any molecule of food within a square mile, and naturally holes of any shape or size.

Frazzled wrote:

Jihadin wrote:

No. I like it here. Ok by here I mean Tennessee.

WTH? Tennessee? When did TX annex TN?

Give us time. We have have unleashed Wiener Legions II - XXXIV to help persuade Arkansas to join Greater Texas. Tennessee will be next. Unfortunately the legions move somewhat slowly (you would too if you had 6in legs) and tend to get distracted by squirrels, cats, any molecule of food within a square mile, and naturally holes of any shape or size.

I think I saw a special about this on the Discovery Channel. Scientists have no clue what makes Army Wieners move from place to place like they do.

Cheers,

dogma wrote:

Vulcan wrote:
You mean, countries to the south not 'officially' part of the U.S. but held firmly under the thumb of American corporations? No thanks. If I want to live in a third-world nation I'll stay right here and watch the oncoming collapse brought on by corporate greed.

I would recommend Finland or Sweden. They are both third world countries.

Well, what do you know? I've been using the term 'third world nation' entirely incorrectly.

From various context, I had been under the mistake belief that the 'third world' refered to undeveloped nations, where severe poverty was pretty much the norm and the middle class simply does not exist. Dogma's note inspired me to actually look up the definition, so that I could argue with him... only to find that he is correct. Finland and Sweeden ARE third world nations in the proper use of the term i.e. they were not aligned to the Soviets (the second world) or the Americans (the first world - how horribly arrogant of us! ).

So, here I'll reword my earlier post that dogma quotes to say what I actually meant, and managed to screw up with my ignorance of the proper definition of 'third world nation.'

"You mean, countries to the south not 'officially' part of the U.S but held firmly under the thumb of American corporations? No thanks, if I want to live in an undeveloped nation I'll stay right here and watch the oncoming collapse brought on by corporate greed."

Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

That's okay, frazz. I KNOW you don't know what I'm talking about, it's no wonder you misunderstand it.

Vulcan wrote:That's okay, frazz. I KNOW you don't know what I'm talking about, it's no wonder you misunderstand it.

I should probably have asked, do YOU know what you're talking about...

Frazzled wrote:
And they also have a slew of government expenses they don't cover, and wipe out entire villages that get in the way of the latest government move. You can't compare just one bit. Its a stupid comment. As another poster noted. Her statement was bad and she should feel bad.

I like the part where they bill your family for the cost of your execution.

And, Fraz, how is that different from the US?

Frazzled wrote:
...having said that I agree on the infrastructure spend part.

You socialist! Next thing you'll say is we need to get the rail systems working again and raise tariffs on foreign goods.

BaronIveagh wrote:You socialist! Next thing you'll say is we need to get the rail systems working again and raise tariffs on foreign goods.

Uh oh. I guess I'd better get out the "Trotsky is Ma Bro!" tshirts.

Frazzled wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:You socialist! Next thing you'll say is we need to get the rail systems working again and raise tariffs on foreign goods.

Uh oh. I guess I'd better get out the "Trotsky is Ma Bro!" tshirts.

Has the rail system worked properly for any country?

Japan has a pretty awesome rail system in my (admittedly limited) understanding. Also, most of Europe I believe uses rail for the majority of long distance travel; whereas we usually drive or fly.

purplefood wrote:
Has the rail system worked properly for any country?

Yes, it worked great in the US, before being bought out and shut down by Ford and General Motors.

Frazzled wrote:Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

Having a strong economy is not the same as being developed.

BaronIveagh wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Has the rail system worked properly for any country?

Yes, it worked great in the US, before being bought out and shut down by Ford and General Motors.

Still works great in NYC and Chicago.

Just don't try to leave city limits.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

Having a strong economy is not the same as being developed.

OK, sure whatever.

Frazzled wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

Having a strong economy is not the same as being developed.

OK, sure whatever.

It isn't. It really isn't. While having a strong economy is more or less mandatory for a nation to be considered "developed", it's far from the only measure.

We can't compare ourselves to china, we can't copy them, but we can have them take a bunch of our jobs and make a bunch of the stuff we sell to each other?

We can't have it both ways.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

Having a strong economy is not the same as being developed.

OK, sure whatever.

It isn't. It really isn't. While having a strong economy is more or less mandatory for a nation to be considered "developed", it's far from the only measure.

You must also consider GDP/capita and living standards. While Brazil has a large economy, they have lots of social problems that France/UK dont

Frazzled wrote:Brazil's economy is stronger than every country in Europe outside of Germany. Methinks you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html
Brazil GDP $2.324 trillion (2011 est.)
France $2.246 trillion (2011 est.)
UK $2.29 trillion (2011 est.)

GDP per capita

Brazil-$11,927
Britain- 36,090
France-35,156

on another note, Qatae is fething ridiculous GDP per capita of 103.000

youbedead wrote:

on another note, Qatae is fething ridiculous GDP per capita of 103.000

dannggg....we totally should have invaded them instead of Iraq